Hillary: An Unborn Child Hours Before Delivery Has No Constitutional Rights

[Benton]

(08-03-2016, 04:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It is heresy to call those strips of meat they get from turkeys bacon.

cook them in back grease. Indistinguishable.

[THE Bigzoman]

(08-03-2016, 09:51 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It's all about how you account for the numbers, right?

It was an honest misstep. 

Also, accounting isn't even that hard. You don't even have to take classes to get an entry level position.

[Belsnickel]

(08-03-2016, 10:30 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: It was an honest misstep. 

Also, accounting isn't even that hard. You don't even have to take classes to get an entry level position.

True story. I am a supervisor in what amounts to an AR department. Of the 21 employees, two of us have an accounting background, and one is econ. No other business degrees, even. I am the only supervisor with an accounting degree, my boss has the econ degree. Her boss, our director, has a degree in communications. I would say only three others have a degree at all.

This might be why I handle the actual accounting work, though. When I was hired they handed all of the stuff requiring a bit more financial knowledge over to me.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(08-03-2016, 11:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: True story. I am a supervisor in what amounts to an AR department. Of the 21 employees, two of us have an accounting background, and one is econ. No other business degrees, even. I am the only supervisor with an accounting degree, my boss has the econ degree. Her boss, our director, has a degree in communications. I would say only three others have a degree at all.

This might be why I handle the actual accounting work, though. When I was hired they handed all of the stuff requiring a bit more financial knowledge over to me.

My cousin has a Business Psychology degree and I forget what else he has a degree in but I know it has nothing to do with what he's in now which he is a Principal and Athletic Director for a high school. His wife, who has a degree in Communications is a Producer for a radio program I think which is what she wanted to do.

When I was in school, before my accident and brain damage, I was in Software Egineering at Cincinnati State, knew 12 different programming languages, kept a 3.75+ GPA and I wanted to get into Game Design. I love "Game Theory" but unfortunately, the brain injury ruined it all for me. I loved figuring out how things might work out in all different types of senerios. I wanted to build a game using a original engine that had at least 100 different outcomes and by the way you built your character, it would be completely different from the character that followed the same path but changed one little thing. This would destroy "Cookie Cutter" builds.

I'm done, I could go on to explain more but I'd bore you. Seriously, there would be different disciplines with classes and sub disciplines with sub classes with different races and sub races then you throw in different attributes and you have the potential of, hell, I can't figure out the math, lol. Balancing problems though would be a nightmare but that's the fun of it.

Oh, and the stories you could build in RP would be CRAZY!

Sorry, I'm rambling but I really want to make a video game. I know the type of game I want to build would take me 50 years to make though, lol.

[BmorePat87]

(08-03-2016, 06:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ..and when a woman can get pregnant by herself she should have sole say. Outside of that it takes 2 to tango responsibility and rights to the offspring should be equally shared. 

But I'm for equal rights; regardless of biological sex. 

How does this change the fact that the fetus only grows in the woman's body? Should a rapist be allowed to get a court order barring his victim from getting an abortion because he had a role in creating the fetus?

[Rotobeast]

(08-03-2016, 11:57 AM)GMDino Wrote: And if your aim is to NOT be a parent/have a child then there is one way to guarantee you do not.  It's not an easy choice, but it is 100% effective.

In the back door ?



Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[fredtoast]

(08-03-2016, 05:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt, the her body. her choice does not cover this inequality.

I of the mind that anything that comes from the union of man and woman should be equally shared and each party should have equal rights and responsibilities.

Ejaculation is not equal to letting a human grow inside you for 9 months and risking your life to give birth to it.

If someone gave you a log worth $10 and you made a $1,000 carving from it do you owe the guy $500 for the log?

[fredtoast]

(08-03-2016, 06:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But I'm for equal rights; regardless of biological sex. 

No you are not.  You want to give a man the right over a woman's body that she does not have over the man's.

There is nothing equal about that.

[THE Bigzoman]

(08-03-2016, 11:01 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: True story. I am a supervisor in what amounts to an AR department. Of the 21 employees, two of us have an accounting background, and one is econ. No other business degrees, even. I am the only supervisor with an accounting degree, my boss has the econ degree. Her boss, our director, has a degree in communications. I would say only three others have a degree at all.

This might be why I handle the actual accounting work, though. When I was hired they handed all of the stuff requiring a bit more financial knowledge over to me.

Hey man, same here. Minus the supervisor part.

I'm kind of all over though. A/R and G/L

[Belsnickel]

(08-04-2016, 01:38 AM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: Hey man, same here. Minus the supervisor part.

I'm kind of all over though. A/R and G/L

Our GL entries are an automated load that another one of the employees handles, though I do have to do manual entries on paperwork that are then entered into GL by another department. Then I come in behind and reconcile all of our accounts. It's government accounting, so good times.

[GMDino]

(08-04-2016, 12:26 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: How does this change the fact that the fetus only grows in the woman's body? Should a rapist be allowed to get a court order barring his victim from getting an abortion because he had a role in creating the fetus?

(08-04-2016, 01:31 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No you are not.  You want to give a man the right over a woman's body that she does not have over the man's.

There is nothing equal about that.

But you guys don't understand.

MEN are having some kind of right (we're not sure what it is but it is something very important I'm sure) taken away because they are not women!

How can something like that happen?!?!

[*bfine32*]

(08-04-2016, 12:26 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: How does this change the fact that the fetus only grows in the woman's body? Should a rapist be allowed to get a court order barring his victim from getting an abortion because he had a role in creating the fetus?

So now we have to pull the rape card when no one was talking about illegal activity or violent crime. You forgot to add incest.

So the woman gets an unequal say in the offspring because here biological make up?

(08-04-2016, 01:31 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No you are not.  You want to give a man the right over a woman's body that she does not have over the man's.

There is nothing equal about that.

Not giving the man control over anything more than having equal say in the welfare of his offspring.

Here's the deal; You, Pat and others say the woman has a greater say in the result of an activity they both freely participated in for no other reason than her biological make up.

Seems folks only want to draw the line at biology when it fits their needs.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-03-2016, 06:38 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: Just about.

Was about 9 give or take, possibly older. It didn't mention OCP's specifically, but just male contraception.  Less than one percent? It's quite higher than that.

I've already stated accessibility is an issue, but I don't think it's so much of one that it tips the scales back.

https://www.optionsforsexualhealth.org/birth-control-pregnancy/birth-control-options/effectiveness

Again, efficacy of the various methods available doesn't mitigate a man's responsibility that contraception is used IOT prevent an unwanted pregnancy.  

If efficacy did affect your responsibility contraception is used IOT prevent an unwanted pregnancy, by your logic you don't even need to worry about contraception because OCPs are more effective than condoms therefore the woman is more to blame than you are if an unwanted pregnancy does occur.  Does that seem logical to you?

And we haven't even touched on the STD prevention aspect.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-02-2016, 10:51 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Not all survive because it's a complication, but not all die, so you can't decide that none have a right to life.

Not all survive because they aren't ready to breath on their own like you keep claiming.  Why?  Because they still need the mother.  I didn't decide that "none have a right to life."

Quote:Do all babies born on time survive?  Why not?

Because god's "perfect" design is filled with design flaws.  I've already given you an example of one reason, persistent fetal circulation.  You have stated no changes need to occur for a fetus to breath on its own just hours before birth, but you're wrong as I demonstrated by educating you on persistent fetal circulation

Quote:It's only getting oxygen from the mother because it's in her belly floating in fluid!  Take it out of that setting, and it can breathe!

Not necessarily.  You just implied not all babies survive birth and now you're claiming they can all breath on their own, but that isn't true.  You don't even realized you keep contradicting yourself.  The fetus is still getting oxygen from the mother because it is supposed to be getting oxygen from the mother.

Quote:You were talking about the abilities to breathe, not the subject of being born in that particular point.

No, I wasn't.  You were.

Quote:As I've pointed out, a baby born prematurely is still a person and alive.

Except for the stillborn babies?  Or the spontaneous abortions aka miscarriages?

Quote:Just because we don't start counting birthdays until it's out of the womb, doesn't mean you're not killing a person.

Contraception prevents that "person" from ever being conceived.  A soldier killing the enemy doesn't mean you're not killing a "person."  Where are your moral objections to those?

Quote:It's not something that you can have both ways.  There is no grey area in abortion.  Either you support the killing of a child or you don't.

By your logic, if you support the KKK's right to free speech then you support racism and white supremacy.  It doesn't work that way.

Quote:The health of the mother isn't in discussion here because we're not talking about those instances.

I didn't mention the health of the mother.

Quote:That abortion is wrong.

According to who and why?  Obviously, people disagree on this issue so it isn't "common sense."  You consider abortion to be wrong in your opinion based upon your morals, values, and beliefs.  Others have differing opinions regarding abortion based upon their values, morals, and beliefs.  Why do you believe your values, morals, and beliefs supercede the values, morals, and beliefs of others?  What gives you the right to impose your values, morals, and beliefs on others?

[BmorePat87]

(08-04-2016, 10:19 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So now we have to pull the rape card when no one was talking about illegal activity or violent crime. You forgot to add incest.

So the woman gets an unequal say in the offspring because here biological make up?

For someone who complains about answering questions with questions, you're doing a great job answering my question with a question.

I don't really care if you want to avoid the issues with your logic because it just means you cannot defend it, so don't worry about answering my question because I'll still answer yours.

The woman gets a say over what happens with her body. No one else does. She has an unequal burden. When you can explain how to make that burden equal, you'll have your answer as to when the man legally has an equal say over ending the pregnancy. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-04-2016, 10:19 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Seems folks only want to draw the line at biology when it fits their needs.

Like religious "folks" claiming "life" "begins" at conception even though both the sperm and the egg needed for conception need to be "alive" for conception to occur for "life" to "begin."  Yet, conception won't occur if either the sperm or the egg aren't already "alive" for "life" to "begin."

In other words, "life" has to be present at conception for "life" to "begin" at conception.  It's kinda a very important prerequisite.  Because I guarantee if you try to fertilize a live egg with a dead sperm or vice versa nothing will happen.  You sure won't "begin" new "life."

[*bfine32*]

(08-04-2016, 12:19 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: For someone who complains about answering questions with questions, you're doing a great job answering my question with a question.

I don't really care if you want to avoid the issues with your logic because it just means you cannot defend it, so don't worry about answering my question because I'll still answer yours.

The woman gets a say over what happens with her body. No one else does. She has an unequal burden. When you can explain how to make that burden equal, you'll have your answer as to when the man legally has an equal say over ending the pregnancy. 

You have no idea how often I thought I should add "*except in cases of rape and incest" to my point. But I assumed we were having an honest discussion. So my apologies for not answering your question; as I did not know it was in ernest. So here is your answer:
If a woman if becomes pregnant from the result of an action for which she did not consent; she should have total control. If she entered it jointly, the joint control should be considered.

The woman has say what happens to her body when she consents to sex. It seems unequal that only the woman has total control of the results of that union. The best logic I can get for this is" Because given her biological make up, she is the one that must carry the child. So if she doesn't want it; she can kill it."

What do we do in cases where the male identifies as the mother. Deep down inside he knows he is the mother and can feel the connection in his body and went the mother aborts he feels a piece of him has been taken?

"Sorry dude, you are a male."

[*bfine32*]

(08-04-2016, 12:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Like religious "folks" claiming "life" "begins" at conception even though both the sperm and the egg needed for conception need to be "alive" for conception to occur for "life" to "begin."  Yet, conception won't occur if either the sperm or the egg aren't already "alive" for "life" to "begin."

In other words, "life" has to be present at conception for "life" to "begin" at conception.  It's kinda a very important prerequisite.  Because I guarantee if you try to fertilize a live egg with a dead sperm or vice versa nothing will happen.  You sure won't "begin" new "life."

What the hell are you talking about?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-04-2016, 12:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What the hell are you talking about?

You don't know?

[BmorePat87]

(08-03-2016, 01:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I once explored the "Why don't men get a say in the pregnancy?" slant is an abortion thread before.

(08-03-2016, 04:39 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There are a lot of reasons why a women may want an abortion, but that doesn't change the underlying philosophical reasoning for why she can have the abortion: it's her body and only she has a say over her body.

Until a man can get pregnant and it is his body, it will always be this way.

(08-03-2016, 05:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt, the her body. her choice does not cover this inequality.

I of the mind that anything that comes from the union of man and woman should be equally shared and each party should have equal rights and responsibilities.

(08-03-2016, 06:02 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: As I said, when the burden of carrying it can be shared equally by the man, then they will have an equal say in aborting it. 

(08-03-2016, 06:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ..and when a woman can get pregnant by herself she should have sole say. Outside of that it takes 2 to tango responsibility and rights to the offspring should be equally shared. 

But I'm for equal rights; regardless of biological sex. 

This is the first time you wrote off me saying that the fact that her body is burdened by pregnancy as simply "because she's a woman". 

(08-04-2016, 12:26 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: How does this change the fact that the fetus only grows in the woman's body? Should a rapist be allowed to get a court order barring his victim from getting an abortion because he had a role in creating the fetus?

(08-04-2016, 10:19 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So the woman gets an unequal say in the offspring because here biological make up?

Not giving the man control over anything more than having equal say in the welfare of his offspring.

Here's the deal; You, Pat and others say the woman has a greater say in the result of an activity they both freely participated in for no other reason than her biological make up.

Seems folks only want to draw the line at biology when it fits their needs.

Here you do it twice, despite me now having said 3 times that it's because she is the one who is pregnant.

(08-04-2016, 12:19 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The woman gets a say over what happens with her body. No one else does. She has an unequal burden. When you can explain how to make that burden equal, you'll have your answer as to when the man legally has an equal say over ending the pregnancy. 

(08-04-2016, 12:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The best logic I can get for this is" Because given her biological make up, she is the one that must carry the child. So if she doesn't want it; she can kill it."

What do we do in cases where the male identifies as the mother. Deep down inside he knows he is the mother and can feel the connection in his body and went the mother aborts he feels a piece of him has been taken?

"Sorry dude, you are a male."

Now, after 4 times saying that a woman decides when to abort because she is physically burdened by pregnancy, your response still is "sorry, you're a dude".

Planned Parenthood v Casey found that the fact that the pregnancy directly affects the woman's body means she has the ultimate say over the pregnancy. If you have some way of explaining how this can become a situation in which it burdens the man's body equally, then you'll have your answer as to when the man has a say over it. I've said this before. I won't say it again. You're not worth wasting time on when you act like this.