I Would Like to Talk (Civilly) About the Generalization of "White People"

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-26-2016, 03:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.) What you are trying to do is take a large complicated issue and make a big deal out of a very small part of it.

2.) It doesn't matter to most black people that only a very small percentage of white people are descendants from slave owners when the entire nation of white people benefited from slavery.  The argument is not just based on individual slave owners, but the fact that the development of the entire nation was tied to slave labor.

3.) So if you want to claim a victory on one very small technical aspect of the issue you can.  But most people are more concerned about the big picture and the major issues that have to be resolved.  Sorry that I offended you so much by adding the proper context to your argument.  

1.) No, I'm having trying to have a conversation that was sparked by a number of specific quotes and statements.  That being that is unfair to assume that just because somewhat is white that their ancestors participated in slavery and/or the genocide of Native Americans.

Saying "Your ancestors enslaved my people"  and "White people benefited from slavery" are two entirely different statements.  Saying "Your ancestors murdered Native Americans" and "Some white people, who were from another country and another time, murdered Native Americans" are completely different accusations.

And the point that we really should all be looking at is that regardless of who your ancestors are, you are not them.  Every person is born in this world with a clean slate, knowing nothing about the world, and having done nothing themselves.  A white black, brown baby born in 1980 is as responsible for what occurred centuries prior as my dog is to what Adolph Hitler did.  So it sad that we're not spending more time judging people for their own actions, rather than centuries old perceptions.

When I get home tonight I will take some time to touch on white privilege.  I feel that given the sensitive nature of the subject matter I should at least try to touch on it.  And you're right, it is a very complicated issue.  One that tends overlap over a number of talking points.

2.) This country simply wouldn't exist without what occurred in regards to Native Americans.  And yes, a lot of monetary benefits came with slavery too.  I'm not sure anyone could argue that American would be the same without either of these events.  And despite the ugliness of much of what surrounds both topics, many people today benefit from their occurrence.

I guess I would ask this though.  Couldn't you make the argument that there is a built in privilege we all share as Americans because of these events?  Before you answer, let me say that I understand that some may benefit more or less.  But isn't there an inherit privilege just for residing in this country, in this time?

Like it or not, if there was influx in money because of slavery, one of which is still felt today, everyone citizen benefits from it.  America is what it is, and it got there how it got there, that is an life's worth of conversation.  But in these time, today, we ALL reap some of the benefits.  There's a reason that even our most poor are sometimes obese, and many enjoy things like cars, cell phones, laptops, cable, high def TV's.  Our nation's poor live a lifestyle that many would literally kill for.  And some don't even lift a finger to earn it. The monetary benefits, on some level, are shared by every single person in this country. The roads, the libraries, the parks, countless resources, etc.

There is an American privilege that is all too often ignored.  You can be black and still benefit from these events.  And they do.  We all do.

3.) Not trying to win anything, just trying explain myself and have a conversation.  If I feel I'm being misquoted or misrepresented I will do my best to better explain myself.  Simple as that.

[Millhouse]

(09-26-2016, 04:27 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Like it or not, if there was influx in money because of slavery, one of which is still felt today, everyone citizen benefits from it.  America is what it is, and it got there how it got there, that is an life's worth of conversation.  But in these time, today, we ALL reap some of the benefits.  There's a reason that even our most poor are sometimes obese, and many enjoy things like cars, cell phones, laptops, cable, high def TV's.  Our nation's poor live a lifestyle that many would literally kill for.  And some don't even lift a finger to earn it.  The monetary benefits, on some level, are shared by every single person in this country.  The roads, the libraries, the parks, countless resources, etc.

There is an American privilege that is all too often ignored.  You can be black and still benefit from these events.  And they do.  We all do.

People like to say that slavery was America's great sin of the past. Yes it was a sin. But it was an imported sin from the Europeans. Those bastards were the ones that originated all of it from the get go. Spain, England, France, Dutch, and others all originated the slave trade to the Americas from the 1500's to 1700s. And it was the European racist mentality that got ingrained into the American landscape for generations to come as we are still feeling the after effects from centuries ago. So thank the Europeans for all this racist bull**** we see today, cause they were the ones that started it all.

So that said, imagine if the Euros werent racist at the extreme levels, and if Africans werent brought over here against their will. Would the Africans have built up their nations better than what we have seen? Maybe, but hard to say. Certainly not all of African countries would be a first world country, as I dont think even one exists on that continent. So basically I agree with you, that black citizens over here definitely benefit from their ancestors misfortunes at the hands of Europeans, otherwise they could very well be living in Africa, for better or for probably worse.

[Aquapod770]

Generalizations are dumb no matter who they're aimed at. Unfortunately generalizing is America's favorite pass time.

[BigPapaKain]

I've never felt any guilt for the actions of ancestors whose names I don't even know. I don't feel guilty for the messed up things relatives I know have done.

If someone tries to guilt trip me because my race (people sharing my physical trait of white skin) because of slavery, I quickly point out I've never owned a slave and I've had more messed up things done to me than I've done to others by people of all ethnicities.

I'm not saying ignore the sins of the past (those who forget...) but don't ever feel guilty for the actions of other people. Especially those that have been dead for a century.

[Rotobeast]

The most fascinating irony of African-Americans lashing out at "white" people, claiming that they are responsible merely because of the color of their skin, is that a VAST amount of African-Americans are partly "white".
Do they hate themselves for the "white" people that are in their family tree ?


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[*TheLeonardLeap*]

What people conveniently forget is that "white people" have been subject to slavery in the past as well. The Romans took slaves from Britannia (England).

Then later England took slaves from Ireland in mass mostly to get population to work in the West Indies farms. The Irish were the largest source of slavery in the 17th and 18th century, because the British could get them locally and for free/extremely cheap, compared to having to go to Africa and pay larger sums.

- - - - - - - - - -

All that aside, I am of Scottish/Irish/German descent and my family never owned slaves. My great-great-great Grandpa's cap-and-ball revolver and battalion flag is on loan to a Civil War museum from where he fought for the Union Army.

So I just laugh at people who put all white people generalized as slave owners and paint themselves as victims despite being many generations removed from any possible slavery. (Though not all US African-American ((huzzah PC terms rather than just saying American)) people are descendants of slavery.)

There was slavery for 80-ish years in the US. There hasn't been slavery for 150-ish years. At the risk of sounding insensitive, it's time to get over it.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-26-2016, 11:46 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: What people conveniently forget is that "white people" have been subject to slavery in the past as well. The Romans took slaves from Britannia (England).

Then later England took slaves from Ireland in mass mostly to get population to work in the West Indies farms. The Irish were the largest source of slavery in the 17th and 18th century, because the British could get them locally and for free/extremely cheap, compared to having to go to Africa and pay larger sums.

- - - - - - - - - -

All that aside, I am of Scottish/Irish/German descent and my family never owned slaves. My great-great-great Grandpa's cap-and-ball revolver and battalion flag is on loan to a Civil War museum from where he fought for the Union Army.

So I just laugh at people who put all white people generalized as slave owners and paint themselves as victims despite being many generations removed from any possible slavery. (Though not all US African-American ((huzzah PC terms rather than just saying American)) people are descendants of slavery.)

There was slavery for 80-ish years in the US. There hasn't been slavery for 150-ish years. At the risk of sounding insensitive, it's time to get over it.

The end of the civil war is 1865.  Slavery had been a part of the country's founding which is roughly 1650.  So we're talking more than 200 yrs of slavery.  Then we're also talking about minorities treated as 2nd class citizens for at least another 100 yrs (1865-1965, the beginning of the civil rights movement), segregation and all that.  My parents were part of that generation.  That is not that long ago, there are people that are still alive that experienced a lot of that.  So telling them to just "get over it" is ignorant at best, insensitive at worse.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-26-2016, 10:04 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There's certainly a difference between saying "you white people are to blame" and saying "It is more beneficial in our society to be white, this is what you can do to help". The problem is you're referencing some idiot who needs a safe space on a college campus. You're not getting the most intellectually honest person. One side should concede that life is different for minorities. The other should concede that not all white people make up this group that has been discriminating for centuries. 

One thing I am going to say as a history teacher, though, is that most people didn't fight the Civil War to end slavery. While slavery is certainly the cause for the South to secede (revisionists, yes it is.), the primary cause for putting down this rebellion was to bring American territory back into the union. The North didn't want slavery to spread, but most soldiers in the Union army weren't fighting to free black people. Their complete disinterest in the lives of black people is what allowed reconstruction to end and Jim Crow to thrive for decades. 

I thought this was a very good point to highlight.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-27-2016, 01:48 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: The end of the civil war is 1865.  Slavery had been a part of the country's founding which is roughly 1650.  So we're talking more than 200 yrs of slavery.  Then we're also talking about minorities treated as 2nd class citizens for at least another 100 yrs (1865-1965, the beginning of the civil rights movement), segregation and all that.  My parents were part of that generation.  That is not that long ago, there are people that are still alive that experienced a lot of that.  So telling them to just "get over it" is ignorant at best, insensitive at worse.

This country was founded in 1783, when it won it's independence. So we're talking like 80 years of US slavery. Don't try to slap an extra 120 years of British people on America's list of faults. We don't hate Alaska because they used to be owned by the Russian Empire.


You know who else was treated as a 2nd class citizen? Almost every other group of people who initially came to America.

The Irish were universally despised because they would do work for the cheapest wages, "stealing" jobs from everyone else.
The Chinese were basically used as slave labor on the West Coast to build the railroads.
Etc

They just worked hard to integrate, and eventually did. If people want to integrate, they can. I think that's also why there's so much clashing going on in Europe over the Muslims immigrating in. If there's no real desire to make it work, it never will.

[GMDino]

(09-27-2016, 03:12 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: This country was founded in 1783, when it won it's independence. So we're talking like 80 years of US slavery. Don't try to slap an extra 120 years of British people on America's list of faults. We don't hate Alaska because they used to be owned by the Russian Empire.


You know who else was treated as a 2nd class citizen? Almost every other group of people who initially came to America.

The Irish were universally despised because they would do work for the cheapest wages, "stealing" jobs from everyone else.
The Chinese were basically used as slave labor on the West Coast to build the railroads.
Etc

They just worked hard to integrate, and eventually did. If people want to integrate, they can. I think that's also why there's so much clashing going on in Europe over the Muslims immigrating in. If there's no real desire to make it work, it never will.

Certainly being fair skinned didn't help them with that at all.

[Benton]

(09-26-2016, 11:46 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: What people conveniently forget is that "white people" have been subject to slavery in the past as well. The Romans took slaves from Britannia (England).

Then later England took slaves from Ireland in mass mostly to get population to work in the West Indies farms. The Irish were the largest source of slavery in the 17th and 18th century, because the British could get them locally and for free/extremely cheap, compared to having to go to Africa and pay larger sums.

- - - - - - - - - -

All that aside, I am of Scottish/Irish/German descent and my family never owned slaves. My great-great-great Grandpa's cap-and-ball revolver and battalion flag is on loan to a Civil War museum from where he fought for the Union Army.

So I just laugh at people who put all white people generalized as slave owners and paint themselves as victims despite being many generations removed from any possible slavery. (Though not all US African-American ((huzzah PC terms rather than just saying American)) people are descendants of slavery.)

There was slavery for 80-ish years in the US. There hasn't been slavery for 150-ish years. At the risk of sounding insensitive, it's time to get over it.

I just laugh at people who try to generalize people (not a comment about you or your post; the bolded line just reminded me of where I tend to fall in this discussion). White, black, BLM, police, male, female. Everybody's their own person, it's impossible to just lump everyone together.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-27-2016, 11:17 AM)Benton Wrote: I just laugh at people who try to generalize people (not a comment about you or your post; the bolded line just reminded me of where I tend to fall in this discussion). White, black, BLM, police, male, female. Everybody's their own person, it's impossible to just lump everyone together.

There are 2 things I hate most in this world are people who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.



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[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-27-2016, 03:12 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:
This country was founded in 1783, when it won it's independence. So we're talking like 80 years of US slavery. Don't try to slap an extra 120 years of British people on America's list of faults. We don't hate Alaska because they used to be owned by the Russian Empire.


You know who else was treated as a 2nd class citizen? Almost every other group of people who initially came to America.

The Irish were universally despised because they would do work for the cheapest wages, "stealing" jobs from everyone else.
The Chinese were basically used as slave labor on the West Coast to build the railroads.
Etc

They just worked hard to integrate, and eventually did. If people want to integrate, they can. I think that's also why there's so much clashing going on in Europe over the Muslims immigrating in. If there's no real desire to make it work, it never will.

I'm going to work right now but you're still incorrect regardless of who was in ruling power, slavery as an institution in this country had been around much longer than 80 yrs.  Trying to minimize its impact is ignorant and foolish

[*bfine32*]

(09-27-2016, 11:48 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: I'm going to work right now but you're still incorrect regardless of who was in ruling power, slavery as an institution in this country had been around much longer than 80 yrs.  Trying to minimize its impact is ignorant and foolish

When was this country founded?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-26-2016, 03:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What you are trying to do is take a large complicated issue and make a big deal out of a very small part of it.

It doesn't matter to most black people that only a very small percentage of white people are descendants from slave owners when the entire nation of white people benefited from slavery.  The argument is not just based on individual slave owners, but the fact that the development of the entire nation was tied to slave labor.

So if you want to claim a victory on one very small technical aspect of the issue you can.  But most people are more concerned about the big picture and the major issues that have to be resolved.  Sorry that I offended you so much by adding the proper context to your argument.  

I'm just going to stop you right there.

Before Black and Native American Slaves, there was the Irish.
The Irish were owned by Whites, Free Blacks and Native Americans.
The Irish were super cheap compared to the Africans.

The whole slavery system was developed and perfected using Irish people by the time Native Americans and African's were added to it.

Now what that lady is talking about? Yes they've had it rough, but that is not every white person's fault to bear.
The opportunities are there now for black people, we have black billionaires, Dr's, CEO's, business owners, there is not a field that I can think of that there is not at least a few black people in it. So the opportunities are there that weren't there 30+ years ago.

With all of that said, it doesn't matter what country you are in, if you are in the Minority, you will face discrimination of some sort. We as a nation are trying to limit that, but it's a very long and difficult road and it's not nowhere as bad as many people make it out to be. What is needed now, is minorities need education and they need to be dedicated to it, else nothing will matter.

[fredtoast]

(09-27-2016, 02:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When was this country founded?

Who lived here before the country was founded and who lived here after it was founded?

Same people, right?

[fredtoast]

(09-27-2016, 06:33 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I'm just going to stop you right there.

Before Black and Native American Slaves, there was the Irish.
The Irish were owned by Whites, Free Blacks and Native Americans.
The Irish were super cheap compared to the Africans.

The whole slavery system was developed and perfected using Irish people by the time Native Americans and African's were added to it.

Irish were indentured servants.  That is nothing like the chattel slavery African Americans were subject to.  It was not based on race and the children of indentured servants were not slaves.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/beyondslavery/liam-hogan/%E2%80%98irish-slaves%E2%80%99-convenient-myth


The whole story about "Irish slavery in America" is mainly white supremacist propaganda.  The "whole slavery system" was NOT developed and perfected using Irish people because the chattel slavery system involving African Americans was nothing like indentured servitude.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-27-2016, 09:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Who lived here before the country was founded and who lived here after it was founded?

Same people, right?

I demand that Poland and France apologize for everything Hitler did, then since I am sure there were some locals who joined the Nazi Party. While they are at it, Margus Hunt needs to apologize for everything Stalin did, too, since Estonia was taken over by the Sovet Union during WW2. Doubtless there were some Political Officers prowling around there.

After all, who cares if you were a country under a leadership that was forced upon you, and you fought to get out from under them? Doesn't matter. Apparently all their actions become yours now.  

 

Don't you have other threads to go troll in, Fred?

[fredtoast]

(09-27-2016, 10:36 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I demand that Poland and France apologize for everything Hitler did, then since I am sure there were some locals who joined the Nazi Party. While they are at it, Margus Hunt needs to apologize for everything Stalin did, too, since Estonia was taken over by the Sovet Union during WW2. Doubtless there were some Political Officers prowling around there.

After all, who cares if you were a country under a leadership that was forced upon you, and you fought to get out from under them? Doesn't matter. Apparently all their actions become yours now.  

 

Don't you have other threads to go troll in, Fred?

So you are saying that slavery was forced upon the citizens of the United States by the British?

Is that why slavery was ended as soon as the US was established as an independent country?



Don't you have a history paper to write, Leonard?

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(09-27-2016, 02:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: When was this country founded?

You don't know?