I would like to ask the left to give me their position on illegal immigration.

[*michaelsean*]

And I will add that I am much less concerned about people who overstay their visas. They've gone through the system, they've been checked out. I don't know what percentage of illegals fall under that category, but that would be at the bottom of my priorities.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 11:26 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And do you think we have a right to control our borders, and just shouldn't or that we don't have the right in the first place?

I think it is the responsibility of the government to control the borders when it comes to protecting the sovereignty of the country, but like I said in the interconnected world we live in today I am not sure stopping the free movement of people is either feasible or beneficial.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 11:27 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And I will add that I am much less concerned about people who overstay their visas.  They've gone through the system, they've been checked out.  I don't know what percentage of illegals fall under that category, but that would be at the bottom of my priorities.

What does checking them out do though? We have millions and millions of people born here who were never "checked out" but are much more toxic to our country than those coming in.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 11:30 AM)Au165 Wrote: What does checking them out do though? We have millions and millions of people born here who were never "checked out" but are much more toxic to our country than those coming in.

Because they were born here and are citizens of this country.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 11:36 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Because they were born here and are citizens of this country.

Does that make them less likely to commit crimes here, or do bad things? Does a location on a birth certificate inherently make someone a better person than someone else? We should spend the money we use to try and keep people out on trying to keep the people here, including our own, in better step with our laws.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 11:38 AM)Au165 Wrote: Does that make them less likely to commit crimes here, or do bad things? Does a location on a birth certificate inherently make someone a better person than someone else? We should spend the money we use to try and keep people out on trying to keep the people here, including our own, in better step with our laws.

Never said anything of the sort.  They were born here; they aren't asking to come here.  That is a difference.  

[CKwi88]

(02-21-2017, 11:27 AM)michaelsean Wrote: And I will add that I am much less concerned about people who overstay their visas.  They've gone through the system, they've been checked out.  I don't know what percentage of illegals fall under that category, but that would be at the bottom of my priorities.

FWIW 

I think overstayers are around 40% of illegals.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 11:47 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: FWIW 

I think overstayers are around 40% of illegals.

Well that's a giant chunk I'm not all that concerned about. I just like people to come here, and we know who they are. There is some official record of their coming here.

I think Visas should be easily renewable. The guidelines you listed earlier seem quite reasonable.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 11:42 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Never said anything of the sort.  They were born here; they aren't asking to come here.  That is a difference.  

I never said you said that, they were rhetorical questions. If you yourself say the only difference is where they are from then I say the difference is moot. This goes back to your original question, my belief is an open border poses no greater danger to the U.S. than our current structure. I believe you can never keep people out who want to do harm and so rather than spending large money at the border doing nothing but security theater move the money inward to the local level to better equip them to deal with the larger issue of our own population that can't seem to help itself in it's desire to kill and cause harm to one another.

It is unconventional, but it is simply a different world than the one that existed when the idea of limiting the flow of people was contrived.

[Au165]

(02-20-2017, 06:18 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I will tell you my perception is that the left doesn't really care.  They don't think it's a problem.  I mean anyone who brings up anything about it is labeled a racist as if it's our fault that the vast vast majority of people coming here illegally have darker skin.  Which makes me think it's more of a political thing for them.

As I said, that's my perception.  So I'll ask.  Do you think we should have open borders?  If you are not for open borders, do you think that once someone gets here, and let's say away from the border, that they should be allowed to stay as long as they have no criminal record?

I'm just honestly curious because I really don't know what the stance of the average liberal is.

Now that I went, Why do you care if someone comes into our country? What does being a "legal" vs "illegal" immigrant do for our country? If the "checking" didn't stop terrorists from blowing up the world trade centers, what does all this "checking" actually gain the country? I am trying to see what limiting the flow of movement of people gains us if it isn't safety.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 12:08 PM)Au165 Wrote: I never said you said that, they were rhetorical questions. If you yourself say the only difference is where they are from then I say the difference is moot. This goes back to your original question, my belief is an open border poses no greater danger to the U.S. than our current structure. I believe you can never keep people out who want to do harm and so rather than spending large money at the border doing nothing but security theater move the money inward to the local level to better equip them to deal with the larger issue of our own population that can't seem to help itself in it's desire to kill and cause harm to one another.

It is unconventional, but it is simply a different world than the one that existed when the idea of limiting the flow of people was contrived.

By definition, a citizen is checked out from birth.  They have a birth certificate, we know who their parents are, they get a SS#.  I'm not sure what else you would do to check them out.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 12:14 PM)Au165 Wrote: Now that I went, Why do you care if someone comes into our country? What does being a "legal" vs "illegal" immigrant do for our country? If the "checking" didn't stop terrorists from blowing up the world trade centers, what does all this "checking" actually gain the country? I am trying to see what limiting the flow of movement of people gains us if it isn't safety.

Because you don't stop everyone, it doesn't mean you don't try.  And really I'd like a record of everyone who comes here.  As mentioned in the previous post, we have a record of everyone born here.  It's the law that you file a birth certificate and obtain a SS#.

[GMDino]

(02-21-2017, 12:23 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Because you don't stop everyone, it doesn't mean you don't try.  And really I'd like a record of everyone who comes here.  As mentioned in the previous post, we have a record of everyone born here.  It's the law that you file a birth certificate and obtain a SS#.

I didn't have a SSN until I was a teen.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 12:23 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Because you don't stop everyone, it doesn't mean you don't try.  And really I'd like a record of everyone who comes here.  As mentioned in the previous post, we have a record of everyone born here.  It's the law that you file a birth certificate and obtain a SS#.

I think we simply have a fundamental disagreement of what "knowing" about someone actually does for the country. It was an interesting discussion, I just don't think we will do anything from here on except go round and round.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 12:50 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think we simply have a fundamental disagreement of what "knowing" about someone actually does for the country. It was an interesting discussion, I just don't think we will do anything from here on except go round and round.

That's cool, and I don't dismiss what you say.  I just haven't really had a chance to really think about it.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 12:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: I didn't have a SSN until I was a teen.

Not anymore.  Issued at birth.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 12:53 PM)michaelsean Wrote: That's cool, and I don't dismiss what you say.  I just haven't really had a chance to really think about it.

No problem, I didn't get to this point over night haha. It is one of those things where I just stepped back and tried thinking about what the bigger picture on some things we do as a country are and some simply don't seem to have much of a point in the larger scale of things.

[Au165]

(02-21-2017, 12:55 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Not anymore.  Issued at birth.

You don't have to get a social security number. It will be an issue down the road, but there is no requirement to have one.

[GMDino]

(02-21-2017, 12:55 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Not anymore.  Issued at birth.

Right, but up until the late 70's - early 80's people still didn't have them at birth.

So we didn't know who was really here.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-21-2017, 12:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: Right, but up until the late 70's - early 80's people still didn't have them at birth.

So we didn't know who was really here.

Yeah we had birth certificates.