I would like to ask the left to give me their position on illegal immigration.

[CKwi88]

(02-22-2017, 12:09 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I thought they did take some sort of oath.

There is one. I remember a big (ish) stink about Obama allowing people to get exemptions based on moral/religious grounds.

[Benton]

(02-21-2017, 08:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Couple Questions:

What do you tell someone going through the immigration process by following established protocols; if you have no issue with folks coming in illegally and further support them being awarded Citizenship?

Should swearing allegiance to the country be a requirement to be awarded citizenship?

Good luck; (although I do have a problem with folks coming illegally, but I thought I'd answer your questions so I could ask one [see below])
Yes.



Followup question: What do you tell someone going through the immigration process for decades? According to the Center for Immigration Studies, the wait time for qualifying applicants (the 98 percent of people applying who have family members or if I understand right occupations waiting in the US) is anywhere from 19 months to 33 years. That's not the processing backlog once you go from the list to "in the system," but the wait to get into the system.

Outside of bourbon, what process takes 33 years and doesn't get overhauled?

(Ok, that was two followup questions)

[*bfine32*]

(02-22-2017, 12:29 AM)Benton Wrote: Good luck; (although I do have a problem with folks coming illegally, but I thought I'd answer your questions so I could ask one [see below])
Yes.



Followup question: What do you tell someone going through the immigration process for decades? According to the Center for Immigration Studies, the wait time for qualifying applicants (the 98 percent of people applying who have family members or if I understand right occupations waiting in the US) is anywhere from 19 months to 33 years. That's not the processing backlog once you go from the list to "in the system," but the wait to get into the system.

Outside of bourbon, what process takes 33 years and doesn't get overhauled?

(Ok, that was two followup questions)

I tell them that we are a Nation of Laws and your decision to follow these laws is to be admired. I would further tell them I will oppose those that jumped queue in front of you and those that support their doing so.

I would further let them know that I am an advocate if legal immigration and hope by actively opposing those that are here illegally that we can remove the stigma currently attached to being an immigrant and hopefully speed up the process of legal measures.

[Benton]

(02-22-2017, 12:42 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I tell them that we are a Nation of Laws and your decision to follow these laws is to be admired. I would further tell them I will oppose those that jumped queue in front of you and those that support their doing so.

I would further let them know that I am an advocate if legal immigration and hope by actively opposing those that are here illegally that we can remove the stigma currently attached to being an immigrant and hopefully speed up the process of legal measures.

to the last part, I dont see a stigma. The GOP has used it as a political talking point, but i don't see employers or school systems shying away from immigrants.

if everyone tried to do it legally, though, I can't imagine the backlog. There's already hundreds of thousands waiting years trying to do it using current laws. Honestly, with this approach they should have been up front decades ago and said "hey, we're not taking any more people, borders are closed."

[*bfine32*]

(02-22-2017, 01:25 AM)Benton Wrote: to the last part, I dont see a stigma. 

Okey Doke. 

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(02-21-2017, 09:54 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I agree that the vast majority of legal and illegal immigrants are here for nothing more to better their lives, and I believe they work hard at it.  

OK let's look at the empathy?  Where does it end?  If we do crack down on employers, then where does that leave those they would have hired?

Personally I have limitless empathy for them, as long as they are here for the right reasons.  However my suggestion for cracking down on employers, was a suggested cheaper and more effective solution, to replace Trumps wall.  However, I'm sure they would be able to find a job somewhere getting paid under the table.  That said, I really think we need immigration reform (and not of the Trump variety).  There is a work visa program I believe called an HB1 (I think that's what it is, it could be H1B or something like that.)  Essentially it allows companies to hire foreigners for positions that they say there aren't enough US citizens qualified to fill, so they have to look outside our borders to fill them.  It's complete fabrication, they simply change the job description, although just about any job filled by them could be filled by many jobless Americans with numerous IT certificates and diplomas.  So IMO reverse this, stop handing out so many HB1's to India and hand out more general work visas to our amigos south of the border.  I work nearly across the street from P&G in Mason there is a lot of Indians, trust me we are not taking their poor.  We are taking their educated, not because there is no one here to do the job, but because it's cheaper than hiring our own citizens who would love to have that job.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

How can we be worried about open borders and need to streamline the immigration process to make it easier and quicker for immigrants to cross our borders which obviously aren't open otherwise we wouldn't need to streamline the process?  And we are worried about these seemingly contradictory positions simultaneously.  

[*michaelsean*]

(02-22-2017, 07:29 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How can we be worried about open borders and need to streamline the immigration process to make it easier and quicker for immigrants to cross our borders which obviously aren't open otherwise we wouldn't need to streamline the process?  And we are worried about these seemingly contradictory positions simultaneously.  

I think you outclevered yourself.  Or maybe me. It's early.

[GMDino]

As I was thinking more about the latest round up I have more of a problem with treating jaywalkers with the same punishment as robbers and murderers.

Also, and I do not know the answer to this question, can officials force all of us to prove citizenry? Can they walk up to anyone and demand papers/proof?

If so I wonder how many white people that happens to.

[GMDino]

(02-22-2017, 09:34 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I think you outclevered yourself.  Or maybe me.  It's early.

He has a point:

We either have open borders or we don't.

If we do we do have to streamline anything...we have to institute something.

If we don't we have to look at how we handle people going through the process.

On a side note as I read article on immigration it is amazing the number of people (who I presume voted) that believe there is zero vetting of anyone coming into the US.  People who actually typed those words as truth.

Scary world we live in.  Or maybe the stupid people are just more noticeable now.

[hollodero]

(02-22-2017, 10:23 AM)GMDino Wrote: Scary world we live in.  Or maybe the stupid people are just more noticeable now.

That, and everyone these days believes he is smart and gets everything. My country is full of those people. They know things, they got things, looked through things, no matter what topic. These wisdoms are undisputable, discussion impossible. If the facts don't fit, the facts are forged. If the things they claim are happening aren't happening, the lying press didn't cover them. Because the media wants migration to look good, loves the climate change lie, or wants this and that, has a whole lot of sinister agendas, for whatever reason. In short, we're getting trumped.

Sorry, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, to which I have nothing to add.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-22-2017, 11:15 AM)hollodero Wrote: That, and everyone these days believes he is smart and gets everything. My country is full of those people. They know things, they got things, looked through things, no matter what topic. These wisdoms are undisputable, discussion impossible. If the facts don't fit, the facts are forged. If the things they claim are happening aren't happening, the lying press didn't cover them. Because the media wants migration to look good, loves the climate change lie, or wants this and that, has a whole lot of sinister agendas, for whatever reason. In short, we're getting trumped.

Sorry, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, to which I have nothing to add.

Hey I'm not Austrian.  I know my mother's side comes from Alsace-Lorraine who seems to surrender their territory to whomever happens to be walking by on any given day. But we're German, not French. I know you wanted to know all that.

[hollodero]

(02-22-2017, 11:35 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Hey I'm not Austrian.

not with that attitude.
But it's never too late! Our citizenship test is really easy to pass for Americans, too. Only consists of two questions. a) Do you want to become an Austrian citizen? and b) Really?  

(02-22-2017, 11:35 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I know my mother's side comes from Alsace-Lorraine who seems to surrender their territory to whomever happens to be walking by on any given day.  But we're German, not French.  I know you wanted to know all that.

Aber ja, das ist sehr spannend!
Where's you father's side from?

[*michaelsean*]

(02-22-2017, 12:06 PM)hollodero Wrote: not with that attitude.
But it's never too late! Our citizenship test is really easy to pass for Americans, too. Only consists of two questions. a) Do you want to become an Austrian citizen? and b) Really?  


Aber ja, das ist sehr spannend!
Where's you father's side from?

Thrilling I'm sure.

Grandfather on his side is Irish.  Grandmother is German, but I don't know what part.  Basically 3/4 German and 1/4 Irish.  The surnames of my 3 German heritage grandparents are Seibert, Gantzer and Piepenbrink.

[Belsnickel]

(02-22-2017, 11:35 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Hey I'm not Austrian.  I know my mother's side comes from Alsace-Lorraine who seems to surrender their territory to whomever happens to be walking by on any given day. But we're German, not French. I know you wanted to know all that.

My father's side goes back to Alsace, then Bern before that. Good times.

(02-22-2017, 12:06 PM)hollodero Wrote: not with that attitude.
But it's never too late! Our citizenship test is really easy to pass for Americans, too. Only consists of two questions. a) Do you want to become an Austrian citizen? and b) Really?  

Vielleicht soll ich bewerben. Ich will im Ausland wohnen.

[hollodero]

(02-22-2017, 12:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Vielleicht soll ich bewerben. Ich will im Ausland wohnen.

Vielleicht sollte ich mich bewerben... :) Das muss noch besser werden. 

-- Pretty good German. How comes? 
(Sorry, I still don't have anything to contribute to the topic.)

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-22-2017, 09:34 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I think you outclevered yourself.  Or maybe me.  It's early.

We obviously don't have open borders. Just look up the list of government agencies involved with immigration and border security along with law enforcement. 

I'm not aware of a group advocating for open borders, although there probably is. 

If you think the process to get into this country is too complicated, doesn't that mean the borders aren't open?

[Belsnickel]

(02-22-2017, 01:37 PM)hollodero Wrote: Vielleicht sollte ich mich bewerben... :) Das muss noch besser werden. 

-- Pretty good German. How comes? 
(Sorry, I still don't have anything to contribute to the topic.)

Ich habe Deutsch lernen gewollt, so ich Klassen seit zwei Jahren genommen habe. Es ist kostenlos weil ich arbeite an (in?) einer Uni.

(it's okay about the contribution, me neither. Also, word order kills me)

[*michaelsean*]

(02-22-2017, 01:51 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: We obviously don't have open borders. Just look up the list of government agencies involved with immigration and border security along with law enforcement. 

I'm not aware of a group advocating for open borders, although there probably is. 

If you think the process to get into this country is too complicated, doesn't that mean the borders aren't open?

I didn't say the borders were open, but they do leak a lot.

[GMDino]

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-21/the-myth-of-the-u-s-immigration-crisis

Quote:I’m in favor of improving the U.S. immigration system -- my proposal is to implement a skills-based system like Canada’s. Yes, the current system is suboptimal in a number of ways. But by treating immigration as an urgent problem in need of dramatic policy action, centrists are conceding way too much. The current situation is not an emergency at all.


Illegal immigration to the U.S. ended a decade ago and, according to the Pew Research Center, has been zero or negative since its peak in 2007:

Here Yesterday, Gone Today
Annual change in unauthorized immigrant population.

Source: Pew Research Center

About a million undocumented immigrants left the country in the Great Recession. But even after the end of the recession, illegal immigration didn’t resume.

Why? One reason might be economic -- even after growth resumed, there was no return to the mania of the bubble years. Another reason is that Mexicans -- both undocumented and otherwise -- are flocking back to Mexico. Despite the country’s drug-related violence, it’s starting to look more attractive as a place to live. The economy has improved, and the fertility rate has fallen a lot, meaning that young Mexicans are needed back in Mexico to take over family businesses and take care of aging parents:

Family Planning
Births per woman in Mexico.


Source: Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis

A third reason is increased border enforcement. For years, many Americans demanded that the border with Mexico be secured in order to stem illegal immigration. Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama did exactly that. Obama, especially, stepped up the pace of deportation:



Round Trip
Annual deportations of unauthorized immigrants.

More at the link.