If GM holding Marvin back, then why has Marvin never left to a better Opportunity/GM?

[BenZoo2]

(11-28-2018, 09:27 AM)McC Wrote: Birds of a feather, as it were.

Dodo birds? Cuckoos?


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[McC]

(11-28-2018, 10:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Funny how when I prove a hater wrong  you try to change the subject.

You proved no one wrong.  And I didn't change the subject.  For every glory, there is an equal or greater shame and catastrophe.  You not admitting the obvious truth does not make it any less obvious.   Troll on.

[fredtoast]

(11-28-2018, 11:02 AM)McC Wrote: You proved no one wrong.  And I didn't change the subject.  For every glory, there is an equal or greater shame and catastrophe.  You not admitting the obvious truth does not make it any less obvious.   Troll on.

So winning NFL Coach of the Year is "getting bashed by the media".

You people are so far removed from reality that it is a waste of my time to try and have an adult conversation with you.

[BenZoo2]

(11-28-2018, 11:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So winning NFL Coach of the Year is "getting bashed by the media".

You people are so far removed from reality that it is a waste of my time to try and have an adult conversation with you.

Good. Quit wasting yours and ours


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[McC]

(11-28-2018, 11:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So winning NFL Coach of the Year is "getting bashed by the media".

You people are so far removed from reality that it is a waste of my time to try and have an adult conversation with you.

So, ten years ago, huh?   His former glory, buried under a mountain of shit.  Yet you still wanna play the part of his volunteer PR man.  And yeah, the media is bashing him now and rightfully so.

Winning season less than half of his career here.  Two four win seasons.  A 6 win season.  Seven straight ugly playoff losses. 

Defense historically bad, Marvin takes over, it gets even worse.  

Owned lock, stock and barrel by the Steelers. 

The Browns, who he once owned, ***** slapping Marv's team in their own building. 

And I'll say it again, though you will ignore it because you have no answer.  Every good thing he has ever done has been soundly cancelled by embarrassment and disaster.


Who is the one removed from reality?  Translation, Fred's got nothing so he says he's washing his hands of us, which will last about ten seconds.  Maybe your convoluted version of reality.  I realize that you've got that Marvin type of phony ego that allows you to think you're right and everyone else in the world is wrong, but the numbers frankly say you are just plain out of your mind.

[Bengalitis]

(11-28-2018, 11:21 AM)McC Wrote: So, ten years ago, huh?   His former glory, buried under a mountain of shit.  Yet you still wanna play the part of his volunteer PR man.  And yeah, the media is bashing him now and rightfully so.

Winning season less than half of his career here.  Two four win seasons.  A 6 win season.  Seven straight ugly playoff losses. 

Defense historically bad, Marvin takes over, it gets even worse.  

Owned lock, stock and barrel by the Steelers. 

The Browns, who he once owned, ***** slapping Marv's team in their own building. 

And I'll say it again, though you will ignore it because you have no answer.  Every good thing he has ever done has been soundly cancelled by embarrassment and disaster.


Who is the one removed from reality?  Translation, Fred's got nothing so he says he's washing his hands of us, which will last about ten seconds.  Maybe your convoluted version of reality.  I realize that you've got that Marvin type of phony ego that allows you to think you're right and everyone else in the world is wrong, but the numbers frankly say you are just plain out of your mind.

The sole responsibility to Marvin's failures lie with Mike Brown since Zimmer left.  Zimmer should have been anointed the next HC. He had worked for it and proved himself capable of. Marvin had shown that he could not get past mediocrity by then.

[McC]

(11-28-2018, 11:31 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: The sole responsibility to Marvin's failures lie with Mike Brown since Zimmer left.  Zimmer should have been anointed the next HC. He had worked for it and proved himself capable of. Marvin had shown that he could not get past mediocrity by then.

No denying the amount of blame Mike gets.  But that in no way diminishes Marv's failings.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2018, 11:34 AM)McC Wrote: No denying the amount of blame Mike gets.  But that in no way diminishes Marv's failings.

The way I look at it, in 2015 and maybe the year before we had a Top 5 roster in the NFL and didn't win a playoff game.

The San Diego playoff loss...you couldn't come up with a better scenario for us to win a playoff game. I think we even beat SD in SD several weeks prior...and we lost.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-28-2018, 11:34 AM)McC Wrote: No denying the amount of blame Mike gets.  But that in no way diminishes Marv's failings.

BINGO !

Mike is guilty, guilty, guilty of being horrible GM

But that in no way let's ole Merv off the hook for in game and other major failures ! Merv has had some pretty sound rosters thru the near two decades (WOW hard to believe)

I remember one Steelers beat down of us, lord there's been so many it all blends together, 5 maybe 6 years ago ? They were decimated by injury had like 6 or 7 starters out, we were pretty healthy and doing well. Everybody, media included, was predicting a Bengal victory at our house IIRC.

Guess what happened ? LOL BEat us by two or three scores and made us look like total chumps. Surprise ! There's just no excuse for all the folding up like a pup tent this team does time and time again. That's not MB !

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-28-2018, 11:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The way I look at it, in 2015 and maybe the year before we had a Top 5 roster in the NFL and didn't win a playoff game.

The San Diego playoff loss...you couldn't come up with a better scenario for us to win a playoff game. I think we even beat SD in SD several weeks prior...and we lost.

Yes we did !

And were going for the throat late in the 2nd half and SD LBer I think punched the ball out of Gio's arm from behind and we curled up in a fetal position from then on.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-26-2018, 10:08 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: The very best teams win in the playoffs the most often, not just make it.
When you think of the VERY best teams when it comes to January, who do you think of?


Chargers have one less playoff appearance than the Bengals. But have gone to the conference championship. Have also won 4 games. Being 4-6.

You can't be "the very best" when you haven't won a playoff game in those 16 years. Especially when 13/16 of the NFL has won a playoff game during that time frame. That's 81% of the league. The Bengals are part of the 19%.

That's not being a part of the very best. That's part of being the very worst.

I'm 26 years old, about to be 27 in January. The Bengals have never won a playoff game since I've been alive.
16 of those 26 years are with Marvin. That's not good, no matter how much you try to spin it.

Marvin has been given chance after chance to rebuild this team how he wants. Yes. Mike Brown is a bad owner. But the Bengals have had NUMEROUS great players and coordinators.

You're going to sit there and tell me a team with as much talent as the Bengals have had the past 7 years that Marvin should be off the hook because of Mike Brown? That's ridiculous.

Marvin is mediocre. He's drafted this team. He's put together THIS team.

I could give countless stats about how Marvin ranks against other coaches who make the playoffs, but you'll just ignore them.

Marvin Lewis is our Jeff Fisher. He is our Jim Mora.
The Bengals will not win a playoff game with him. And that's on HIM.
4 of his 7 playoff games; the Bengals were shut out completely in the 2nd half.
Only 2 of his 7 playoff games did the Bengals even score a TD in the 2nd half.
He's been outscored 96-29.
That's an average of 4 points per second half.

So. No. This is not one of the very best teams.
Again, those teams that have made it more than the Bengals have won a Super Bowl.
Those that tied with the Bengals, have made a Super Bowl.
Marvin can't even get out of the wildcard spot, and 26 other teams have done that at least once since he's been here.

This has always been some of the most damning evidence against Marv. You simply don't go from "enough talent to win 10+ games" to "shut out 4 times (out of 7) in the 2nd half of playoff games". Not with the players I listed. Not with Palmer, Dalton, Chad, AJ, Eifert, Gio, Marvin Jones, Housh, Benson, etc.

The free agency excuse is waifer thin when you consider these facts. A free agent might help us if we were competitive. We haven't been. Only 1 playoff game was even within 1 score. And what difference is a big free agent going to make when Marv can't even get guys like Atkins and AJ Green to produce like themselves? 

That's the dirty little secret we ignore while pining for free agents every March. We crave any reason for hope, but with Marvin Lewis, there is none. The guy has proven for almost 2 decades that he can't get it done. End. Of. Story.

(11-26-2018, 10:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That is actually not a lot of talent spread out over 15 years.

Marvin has had 17 position players selected to the Pro Bowl and 4 who were All Pro.  Over the same period of time the Steelers have had 27 and 10.  Ravens have had 26 and 13.  Even one of the worst teams in the league over that span, the buffalo Bills, had 22 players selected to the Pro Bowl.

Um, yes that is a lot of talent.

And your Pro Bowl stat is once again misleading. Please list the number of Pro Bowls...not the "players" named to the Pro Bowl.

For example, Chad Johnson made the Pro Bowl 6 times. How many Bills players made it that many times?

(11-26-2018, 11:21 PM)SladeX Wrote: "fredtoast



No, but I will point out that we drafted three Pro Bowl players in 2010 (Gresham, Dunlap, Atkins); 2 more Pro Bowlers and a top starter in 2011 (Dalton, Green, Boling); and 4 more players in 2012 who all received huge free agent contracts (Kirkpatrick, Zeitler, Sanu, Jones) plus another guy who was a 5 year starter in the league (Iloka).


That is a ton of talent in three years.  I don't expect drafts like that every year, but it is not impossible"


Quoted from another thread. Thanks Fred!

More double-speak from Fred. When his argument requires it, we got a "ton" of talent. When defending Marv, we didn't have enough to win playoff games.

[BenZoo2]

(11-28-2018, 12:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This has always been some of the most damning evidence against Marv. You simply don't go from "enough talent to win 10+ games" to "shut out 4 times (out of 7) in the 2nd half of playoff games". Not with the players I listed. Not with Palmer, Dalton, Chad, AJ, Eifert, Gio, Marvin Jones, Housh, Benson, etc.

The free agency excuse is waifer thin and weak af when you consider these facts. A free agent might help us if we were competitive. We haven't been. Only 1 playoff game was even within 1 score. And what difference is a big free agent going to make when Marv can't even get guys like Atkins and AJ Green to produce like themselves? 

That's the dirty little secret we ignore while pining for free agents every March. We crave any reason for hope, but with Marvin Lewis, there is none. The guy has proven for almost 2 decades that he can't get it done. End. Of. Story.


Um, yes that is a lot of talent.

And your Pro Bowl stat is once again misleading. Please list the number of Pro Bowls...not the "players" named to the Pro Bowl.

For example, Chad Johnson made the Pro Bowl 6 times. How many Bills players made it that many times?


More double-speak from Fred. When his argument requires it, we got a "ton" of talent. When defending Marv, we didn't have enough to win playoff games.

Stop squeeling shake, you’re starting to sound like the rest of us


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[Shake n Blake]

(11-28-2018, 01:32 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: 25 different teams have won a playoff game since Marvin was here.
Only other teams that have not won a playoff game are the Lions, Bills, Browns, Dolphins, Raiders, and Bucs.

19 different teams have made the conference championship game since Marvin has been here.

25 different teams had more talent than the Bengals, according to Fred. That's ah-mazing! 

Seriously though, that really makes me question just how good Marvin's tenure really was. If nearly 80% of the league was able to have greater success at some point than any Marv teams, why am I supposed to feel good about Marv again? That rebound from 2003-2005 sure bought Marv a TON of good will. Maybe a lifetime's worth from some, including Mike Brown.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-28-2018, 01:03 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Stop squeeling shake, you’re starting to sound like the rest of us

Oh, I was just resuming a conversation from a few pages ago. I got tired out from all my squealing and needed a nap. 

Now I'm all refreshed and ready to squeal at a slightly higher pitch.  

[Whatever]

(11-28-2018, 12:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This has always been some of the most damning evidence against Marv. You simply don't go from "enough talent to win 10+ games" to "shut out 4 times (out of 7) in the 2nd half of playoff games". Not with the players I listed. Not with Palmer, Dalton, Chad, AJ, Eifert, Gio, Marvin Jones, Housh, Benson, etc.

The free agency excuse is waifer thin when you consider these facts. A free agent might help us if we were competitive. We haven't been. Only 1 playoff game was even within 1 score. And what difference is a big free agent going to make when Marv can't even get guys like Atkins and AJ Green to produce like themselves? 

That's the dirty little secret we ignore while pining for free agents every March. We crave any reason for hope, but with Marvin Lewis, there is none. The guy has proven for almost 2 decades that he can't get it done. End. Of. Story.


Um, yes that is a lot of talent.

And your Pro Bowl stat is once again misleading. Please list the number of Pro Bowls...not the "players" named to the Pro Bowl.

For example, Chad Johnson made the Pro Bowl 6 times. How many Bills players made it that many times?


More double-speak from Fred. When his argument requires it, we got a "ton" of talent. When defending Marv, we didn't have enough to win playoff games.

The Pro Bowl argument is priceless.  The Bengals actually have more former Pro Bowlers on the roster this year than the Steelers.

For another, our Pro Bowl numbers are deflated because of Marvin's complete and utter inability to get this team to perform in primetime.  If you're a casual fan of another team and only watch the 1-2 primetime games the Bengals have per year, how many of our guys would you vote for? 

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2018, 01:46 PM)Whatever Wrote: The Pro Bowl argument is priceless.  The Bengals actually have more former Pro Bowlers on the roster this year than the Steelers.

For another, our Pro Bowl numbers are deflated because of Marvin's complete and utter inability to get this team to perform in primetime.  If you're a casual fan of another team and only watch the 1-2 primetime games the Bengals have per year, how many of our guys would you vote for? 

How many Pro Bowl caliber players drafted in the last 6 years?

I do think that fans look too much at top end talent. We have about 8 starters who grade in the 50's by PFF. Meaning we have top end talent, but many of our starters are really bad also.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-28-2018, 11:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The way I look at it, in 2015 and maybe the year before we had a Top 5 roster in the NFL and didn't win a playoff game.

The San Diego playoff loss...you couldn't come up with a better scenario for us to win a playoff game. I think we even beat SD in SD several weeks prior...and we lost.

The numbers told them what to do in that game (what they did to beat SD the last two times they faced them), and after going down a TD and a FG (I think was the margin), they threw it out the window.  Brilliant.

[Whatever]

(11-28-2018, 02:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: How many Pro Bowl caliber players drafted in the last 6 years?

I do think that fans look too much at top end talent. We have about 8 starters who grade in the 50's by PFF. Meaning we have top end talent, but many of our starters are really bad also.

Well, Fej made it last year, so there's him.  I think Bates is on pace to make it this year.

If we're talking caliber, Zeitler is arguably based on PFF grades.  I think most of us would say Mixon with a good OC and/or OL.  Lawson and WJIII looked the part until this year's disaster, but I think that is more on coaching.

The Steelers, by comparison, have DeCastro, Villeneuva, Crosby, and Nix in that period.

[fredtoast]

(11-28-2018, 11:21 AM)McC Wrote: So, ten years ago, huh?  

Yes, exactly.  After '07-'08.

(11-27-2018, 07:24 PM)Whatever Wrote: Marvin has been bashed by both Bengals fans and the national media alike since '07-08. 

Get it now?

[McC]

(11-28-2018, 03:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes, exactly.  After '07-'08.


Get it now?

Sure.  The media bashes him when he deserves it, praises him when he deserves that.  Been a while since he's deserved praise.  I'm sure they didn't bash him when he won his award but did bash him when his team embarrassed itself and the whole city in the subsequent playoff game.  That's how it works.  Seems pretty simple. 

If he could stop being bad, he wouldn't be getting called bad.  But he is powerless to stop it any more and that's why it is clear he has run out the string.