Insanity defense

[fredtoast]

(10-02-2020, 04:20 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm sorry that I'm taking your words at face value and when you say that "everyone who believes in God is insane" you are saying that "everyone who believes in God is insane". 

You are not getting what I said.

The reason I voted "no' was because I DO NOT believe that everyone who believes in god is insane.

If I thought everyone who believed in god was insane then I would argue that they would be entitled to the insanity defense.

So why won't you vote?

[*PhilHos*]

(10-02-2020, 05:02 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Because Christians aren’t the only people who believe in a god. I assume that’s why he referred to religion and not specifically Christianity.

Yes, you are correct. I chose my words poorly. I should not have just said Christianity but ALL religious people.

(10-02-2020, 06:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are not getting what I said.

The reason I voted "no' was because I DO NOT believe that everyone who believes in god is insane.

If I thought everyone who believed in god was insane then I would argue that they would be entitled to the insanity defense.

So why won't you vote?

2 things:
1) assuming this is true, you need to re-word your OP, because it looks like you're saying the opposite.

2) you still said religions are not based in reality or logic, which is still an attack on religions.

[fredtoast]

(10-02-2020, 06:50 PM)PhilHos Wrote: 2 things:
1) assuming this is true, you need to re-word your OP, because it looks like you're saying the opposite.

No it does not appear that way.  You are just so hypersensitive you interpreted it that way.

(10-02-2020, 06:50 PM)PhilHos Wrote: 2) you still said religions are not based in reality or logic, which is still an attack on religions.

That is not an attack.  That is a fact necessary to explain why not everyone who believes in religion is insane.  

Are you going to claim that your religious beliefs are based on "reality and logic"?

O ye of little faith.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-02-2020, 06:50 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, you are correct. I chose my words poorly. I should not have just said Christianity but ALL religious people.


2 things:
1) assuming this is true, you need to re-word your OP, because it looks like you're saying the opposite.

2) you still said religions are not based in reality or logic, which is still an attack on religions.

He's trying to weasel out of it now, but it was plain as day his OP was an attack on religious people.  It was patently obvious to me and I'm probably the least religious person on this board, or certainly one of them.

[fredtoast]

(10-05-2020, 03:31 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He's trying to weasel out of it now, but it was plain as day his OP was an attack on religious people.  It was patently obvious to me and I'm probably the least religious person on this board, or certainly one of them.

I am not trying to weasel out of anything.

If it was an attack then explain why?

Stating the religious beliefs are not based on reality or logic is not an "attack" unless you are going to argue that they ARE based on reality and logic.  But they are not.  They are based on faith and emotions.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-05-2020, 01:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Are you going to claim that your religious beliefs are based on "reality and logic"?

Yes, they are. I've experienced God's presence many times throughout my life. You may want to call it something else, but I know what I've experienced and it was real to me.  I've had my beliefs questioned many times (sometimes by myself) and with great introspection and much research, my faith has been STRENGTHENED. 

But, sure, tell me that my beliefs are based on fantasy and illogic and somehow claim that that's not an attack on them because THAT's a logical claim.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-05-2020, 03:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Stating the religious beliefs are not based on reality or logic is not an "attack" unless you are going to argue that they ARE based on reality and logic.  But they are not.  They are based on faith and emotions.

Some beliefs are based on faith, true, but not all. Unless you find it illogical to want someone to be punished for their wrongdoings? Or perhaps you find it illogical to treat other people with love and kindness (yes, I recognize far too many religious people do not do this)? Certainly you find it illogical to regularly meet together with like-minded people to learn about and discuss topics related to the reason your group meets together?

[fredtoast]

(10-06-2020, 04:28 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Some beliefs are based on faith, true, but not all. Unless you find it illogical to want someone to be punished for their wrongdoings? Or perhaps you find it illogical to treat other people with love and kindness (yes, I recognize far too many religious people do not do this)? Certainly you find it illogical to regularly meet together with like-minded people to learn about and discuss topics related to the reason your group meets together?

Criminal justice is not a religious belief.

Treating people with love and kindness is not a  religious belief.

Meeting with like minded people is not a religious belief.

Atheists believe in all of these things.

[fredtoast]

(10-06-2020, 04:14 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, they are. I've experienced God's presence many times throughout my life. You may want to call it something else, but I know what I've experienced and it was real to me.  I've had my beliefs questioned many times (sometimes by myself) and with great introspection and much research, my faith has been STRENGTHENED. 

But, sure, tell me that my beliefs are based on fantasy and illogic and somehow claim that that's not an attack on them because THAT's a logical claim.

I am sure your feelings are real.  But they are still just an emotional response to you beliefs.  They are not based on any provable facts.

To tie this back to the original topic, when Dan and Ron Lafferty killed those people they really felt God told them to do it.  But that can't be proven through any facts or logical argument.  So anyone who claims they should have been able to use the insanity defense would be saying that people like you were insane also.  And the reason I said they should not be allowed to use the insanity defense is because I don't think everyone who believes in a mystical gad is insane.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-06-2020, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To tie this back to the original topic, when Dan and Ron Lafferty killed those people they really felt God told them to do it.  But that can't be proven through any facts or logical argument.

It also can't be proven that they really believed it.  

Quote:  So anyone who claims they should have been able to use the insanity defense would be saying that people like you were insane also. 

If they were actually diagnosed with a mental illness that rendered them incompetent at the time of the offense they would be.  Believing in god is not the same thing.  But you're a lawyer and knew that already, which makes your argument perplexing to say the least.

Quote:And the reason I said they should not be allowed to use the insanity defense is because I don't think everyone who believes in a mystical gad is insane.

How about they can't use the defense because they weren't diagnosed as mentally incompetent at the time of the offense?  Having faith is not analogous to insanity.  Acting in an unlawful fashion because you heard voices e.g. God, could be insanity.  A psychiatrist could help us determine if this is the case.  Isn't science wonderful?

[*PhilHos*]

(10-06-2020, 05:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Criminal justice is not a religious belief.

Treating people with love and kindness is not a  religious belief.

Meeting with like minded people is not a religious belief.

Atheists believe in all of these things.

So? These are also part of my religious beliefs which you claim is based on fantasy and illogic.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-06-2020, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am sure your feelings are real.  But they are still just an emotional response to you beliefs.  They are not based on any provable facts.

I'm not talking about an emotional response. Yes, there were emotional responses, obviously but I have also had physical experiences that have reinforced my beliefs. No, I can't prove this to you outside of my own personal testimony, but if the only things that are real and logical are provable, then there is very, very little that is real and logical.

(10-06-2020, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think everyone who believes in a mystical gad is insane.

No, of course not. You just think they believe in fantasy and are illogical. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-07-2020, 11:04 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm not talking about an emotional response. Yes, there were emotional responses, obviously but I have also had physical experiences that have reinforced my beliefs. No, I can't prove this to you outside of my own personal testimony, but if the only things that are real and logical are provable, then there is very, very little that is real and logical.


No, of course not. You just think they believe in fantasy and are illogical. 

Phil, why are you bothering at this point?  You know he never concedes a point or admits he's wrong.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-07-2020, 12:28 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Phil, why are you bothering at this point?  You know he never concedes a point or admits he's wrong.

I know. But, I can't help. I like to have the last word

[fredtoast]

(10-07-2020, 11:04 AM)PhilHos Wrote: No, of course not. You just think they believe in fantasy and are illogical. 

You should be proud of your faith instead of ashamed..

John 20:29 "Blessed are those who have not seen but believe."

[*PhilHos*]

(10-07-2020, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You should be proud of your faith instead of ashamed..

John 20:29 "Blessed are those who have not seen but believe."

Ok, you lost me. 

[fredtoast]

(10-08-2020, 04:30 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Ok, you lost me. 

You consider it an insult to be accused of believing with out any factual basis.

Jesus said it was a blessing.

It is the story of "doubting Thomas"

Maybe if you knew a little more about what Jesus said you would not be squealing so loudly about me stating that you "Believe without seeing"

[*PhilHos*]

(10-08-2020, 06:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You consider it an insult to be accused of believing with out any factual basis.

No, I didn't. Has there been ANY argument or debate you've been involved in that you DIDN'T twist someone's words to fit your argument?