Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 06:56 PM)Dill Wrote: I see signs saying "Resistance to Occupation is a Right" and "free palestinian prisoners."
"Ceasefire in Gaza" = advocating for Hamas?
Plenty more would prove, what, they are protesting for Palestinian Human rights?
NB: just saw your post to Dino. So there are Hamas prisoners among the many thousands, including children.
THAT's how they're "advocating for Hamas"? Jeezus.
Yeah, I'd say freeing convicted terrorist mass murders is definitely supporting terrorism. Also, what "children" are in prison? Smells like another Dill lie.
Quote:The Jewish students participating in the protests are doing this?
Maybe, would that be relevant? Is bigotry towards a group and making them feel threatened acceptable if it comes from within their ethnic group? What a twisted little world you live in.
Quote:No I don't "get" that. To get there you need to explain why students, or anyone, would camp out on the ground just before finals, to get what--a tent?
Why would Soros "astroturf" a movent supposedly supporting death to the Jews?? How does this make sense to you?
There's a lot you don't get apparently.
Quote:You got that I was quoting you, right? The accusation of uninformed bigotry originates with you.
I ask how YOU exempt YOURSELF from YOUR charge, when the students appear to
know more about the origins of the war and are defending Palestinian human rights.
Yeah, you asked how they're the bigot and not me? That's an accusation of bigotry directed at me. Poor Dill, little word games aren't working for you.
Quote:So how do you? More emotional flailing and accusation here will just send the wrong message.
Feel it slipping away do you? Don't worry, it's only going to get worse.
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
Newly elected Columbia student president gives an interesting speech.
https://x.com/OGAride/status/1783902870305444241
She probably doesn't have any first hand experience there though, right?
Posts: 11,820
Threads: 131
Reputation:
32591
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 06:48 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Looks like we can add Eric Adams to the list of people tired of pro-Hamas demonstrators.
A fair number of people finding their spines on this issue of late.
Until the US becomes better informed about the roots of the
Gaza conflict, the majority of celebrities and politicians will be
"finding their spines and "standing with Israel."
I'd appreciate it if you spent more time finding evidence that the goal
of the protests is actually to advocate for Hamas.
So far your proof has been rather sketchy, or better said "stretchy,"
as in stretching advocacy for Palestinian prisoners to a pro-Hamas stance.
You presented a photograph chock full of signs advocating for Palestinian rights,
which I claim is the basis and goal of the protests. You can only construct the
most oblique tack to make them about "Hamas advocacy" by claiming,
"Well Hamas are Palestinian too, so advocating for Palestinian rights
is advocating for Hamas." That is pretty bad reasoning.
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 07:16 PM)Dill Wrote: Until the US becomes better informed about the roots of the
Gaza conflict, the majority of celebrities and politicians will be
"finding their spines and "standing with Israel."
You mean as long as people of decency and morals exist they'll continue to stand against murdering rapist pigs. It's endlessly amusing how anyone who disagrees with you is uneducated and/or ignorant. Pomposity is never a good look.
Quote:I'd appreciate it if you spent more time finding evidence that the goal
of the protests is actually to advocate for Hamas.
You mean other than stating they are with Hamas and advocating for the release of Hamas prisoners? You want more than that?
Quote:So far your proof has been rather sketchy, or better said "stretchy,"
as in stretching advocacy for Palestinian prisoners to a pro-Hamas stance.
Oh, are Hamas prisoners not included in "free all Palestinian prisoners?" I'm sure those Hamas member will be surprised you don't consider them Palestinian.
Quote:You presented a photograph chock full of signs advocating for Palestinian rights,
which I claim is the basis and goal of the protests. You can only construct the
most oblique tack to make them about "Hamas advocacy" by claiming,
"Well Hamas are Palestinian too, so advocating for Palestinian rights
is advocating for Hamas." That is pretty bad reasoning.
Actually avoiding the basic and logical fact that freeing all Palestinians would include freeing horrifyingly evil legally convicted Hamas criminals is the essence of bad reasoning. Like I said, Dill. It's just going to keep slipping away. I'll be here to enjoy every second of it.
Posts: 11,820
Threads: 131
Reputation:
32591
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
There are more thoughtful approaches/responses out there.
Dialogue is always a good place to start.
Columbia students representing Jewish and pro-Palestinian sides speak about protests
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kk5PuW6tzsE
Posts: 3,700
Threads: 20
Reputation:
22317
Joined: Jun 2015
Mood: None
He/she/they had an audience with AOC earlier.
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 07:50 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote:
He/she/they had an audience with AOC earlier.
Yeah, and Omar was there on campus meeting with some of the bigger offenders as well. Much like the Labor Party in the UK the Dems are going to have to face their internal anti-Semitism soon. I think you can safely apply the label to Omar and Tlaib. AOC is just an idiot, so she may just be unaware.
Posts: 11,820
Threads: 131
Reputation:
32591
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 07:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You mean as long as people of decency and morals exist they'll continue to stand against murdering rapist pigs. It's endlessly amusing how anyone who disagrees with you is uneducated and/or ignorant. Pomposity is never a good look.
You mean other than stating they are with Hamas and advocating for the release of Hamas prisoners? You want more than that?
Oh, are Hamas prisoners not included in "free all Palestinian prisoners?" I'm sure those Hamas member will be surprised you don't consider them Palestinian.
Actually avoiding the basic and logical fact that freeing all Palestinians would include freeing horrifyingly evil legally convicted Hamas criminals is the essence of bad reasoning. Like I said, Dill. It's just going to keep slipping away. I'll be here to enjoy every second of it.
You just accused student protestors of "uninformed bigotry."
Was that not because they "disagree" with you? And didn't you mean to imply they were ignorant?
When asked what excepts you from your own charge--suddenly you think "pomposity" is not a good look.
Was it a good look or "endlessly amusing" when you first made the charge?
I haven't seen a lot of evidence that protestors are "with Hamas." They seem to be standing with
people illegally held under military occupation. That's why I asked you to supply evidence of Hamas advocacy.
Your evidence so far has been that they support Palestinians, and some Palestinians are Hamas.
Which I call, yes, bad reasoning, even if some Hamas are Palestinian. It is not a kind of reasoning
which can be aligned with the fundamentals of human rights law.
The question is whether freeing HAMAS prisoners is the point of freeing PALESTINIAN prisoners.
I've seen no evidence it is. The protestors think the majority of the imprisoned are innocent.
They don't think its ok to keep that majority in prison, just to be sure Hamas stays in.
And they think there'd be no murdering raping Hamas pics in the first place if innocent Palestinians
hadn't been illegally imprisoned for generations now.
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 08:15 PM)Dill Wrote: You just accused student protestors of "uninformed bigotry."
Was that not because they "disagree" with you? And didn't you mean to imply they were ignorant?
Yes, they are uninformed bigots. If you can support Hamas you are either a bigot or you are uninformed as to what they do. There is no other option.
Quote:When asked what excepts you from your own charge--suddenly you think "pomposity" is not a good look.
Was it a good look or "endlessly amusing" when you first made the charge?
I don't think a factual point accurately stated is pompous.
Quote:I haven't seen a lot of evidence that protestors are "with Hamas." They seem to be standing with
people illegally held under military occupation. That's why I asked you to supply evidence of Hamas advocacy.
Your evidence so far has been that they support Palestinians, and some Palestinians are Hamas.
Which I call, yes, bad reasoning, even if some Hamas are Palestinian. It is not a kind of reasoning
which can be aligned with the fundamentals of human rights law.
You're lying here and it would only take someone reading the last few posts to know it. They advocate for freeing all Palestinian prisoners. This includes a very large number of convicted Hamas murderers. If the sign said free all non-Hamas prisoners you'd have a point. It didn't, so you don't. So this kid is either ignorant of the Hamas prisoners or they know and don't care, which which would them a bigoted terrorist supporter.
Quote:The question is whether freeing HAMAS prisoners is the point of freeing PALESTINIAN prisoners.
I've seen no evidence it is. The protestors think the majority of the imprisoned are innocent.
They don't think its ok to keep that majority in prison, just to be sure Hamas stays in.
Yes, so they are ignorant or bigoted. Freeing large numbers of convicted murderer terrorists is never a good idea, unless you're on their side. And that would assume that every non-Hamas prisoner is unjustly imprisoned, which is an enormous stretch by any logical standard.
Quote:And they think there'd be no murdering raping Hamas pics in the first place if innocent Palestinians
hadn't been illegally imprisoned for generations now.
Rather immaterial to the world we currently live in. For whatever reason they exist, and as is typical of you, you place the blame more on others than the terrorists themselves, they exist. Advocating for their freedom is either ignorant of what they've done, or bigoted support for what they've done. There are no other options.
Thank you though, sincerely, for accurately portraying the cognitive dissonance required to be one of these protestors. I couldn't have done it better myself.
Let me ask you this. If a native American tribe left their reservation and raped and murdered the residents of a nearby American town, would that be warranted resistance to occupation?
Posts: 11,820
Threads: 131
Reputation:
32591
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 07:50 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: He/she/they had an audience with AOC earlier.
So we have a "student leader" making anti-zionist remarks which,
I'm happy to agree, are pretty incoherent and contradictory.
Won't object to "ignorant" either.
And now he is desperately walking back his comments.
The CUAD organized the protests. Are they treating him
as a spokesperson for the protest, or as a random
guy with a big mouth, now selected by a right wing news
organization to represent the protest as a whole?
Does he belong to or lead a student organization?
Posts: 18,040
Threads: 212
Reputation:
166575
Joined: May 2015
Mood:
(04-26-2024, 08:43 PM)Dill Wrote: And now he is desperately walking back his comments.
He/She/They.
Posts: 3,700
Threads: 20
Reputation:
22317
Joined: Jun 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 08:43 PM)Dill Wrote: So we have a "student leader" making anti-zionist remarks which,
I'm happy to agree, are pretty incoherent and contradictory.
Won't object to "ignorant" either.
And now he is desperately walking back his comments.
The CUAD organized the protests. Are they treating him
as a spokesperson for the protest, or as a random
guy with a big mouth, now selected by a right wing news
organization to represent the protest as a whole?
Does he belong to or lead a student organization?
I’ve seen outlets refer to him as a leader of the protest.
https://www.newsweek.com/who-khymani-james-columbia-protest-organizers-remarks-spark-fury-1894488
She apparently has status enough to lead a presser.
They also had an audience with a sitting US senator.
There goes the right, ***noticing*** shit. Seizing, pouncing, etc. 
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
Nice dog whistle here, except it's not even trying to be subtle.
One has to wonder how long Omar can get away with saying things like this without the appropriate condemntaiton.
Posts: 3,700
Threads: 20
Reputation:
22317
Joined: Jun 2015
Mood: None
(04-27-2024, 02:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Nice dog whistle here, except it's not even trying to be subtle.
One has to wonder how long Omar can get away with saying things like this without the appropriate condemntaiton.
There’s condemnation I’ve seen out there, but it’s of the inappropriate variety. Again, pouncing, seizing, etc.
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-27-2024, 03:08 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: There’s condemnation I’ve seen out there, but it’s of the inappropriate variety. Again, pouncing, seizing, etc.
This is going to be a bloodbath.
Posts: 11,820
Threads: 131
Reputation:
32591
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 08:33 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Thank you though, sincerely, for accurately portraying the cognitive dissonance required to be one of these protestors. I couldn't have done it better myself.
Let me ask you this. If a native American tribe left their reservation and raped and murdered the residents of a nearby American town, would that be warranted resistance to occupation?
Are Native Americans on US reservations voting American citizens who own the land they live on?
This is as off as your Pearl Harbor analogy. The occupation is still invisible to you.
But that's only the second confusion.
The first is that someone is arguing it's ok to rape an murder people.
But that is easiest to refute, so it looks like you are sticking with that.
Posts: 11,820
Threads: 131
Reputation:
32591
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-26-2024, 07:03 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, I'd say freeing convicted terrorist mass murders is definitely supporting terrorism. Also, what "children" are in prison? Smells like another Dill lie.
For the guy who smells "lies" everywhere: How many "uninformed" protestors already know this?
Why Does Israel Have So Many Palestinians in Detention and Available to Swap?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap
As of November 1, Israeli authorities held nearly 7,000 Palestinians from the occupied territory in detention for alleged security offenses, according to the Israeli human rights organization HaMoked. Far more Palestinians have been arrested since the October 7 attacks in Israel than have been released in the last week. Among those being held are dozens of women and scores of children.
The majority have never been convicted of a crime, including more than 2,000 of them being held in administrative detention, in which the Israeli military detains a person without charge or trial. Such detention can be renewed indefinitely based on secret information, which the detainee is not allowed to see. Administrative detainees are held on the presumption that they might commit an offense at some point in the future. Israeli authorities have held children, human rights defenders and Palestinian political activists, among others, in administrative detention, often for prolonged periods.
The large number of Palestinian detainees is primarily the result of separate criminal justice systems Israeli authorities maintain in the occupied territory. The nearly 3 million Palestinians who live in the occupied West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem, are ruled by military law and prosecuted in military courts. By contrast, the nearly half a million Israeli settlers in the West Bank are governed under civil and criminal law and tried in Israeli civil courts. Discrimination pervades every aspect of this system....
Discrimination also pervades the treatment of children. Israeli civil law protects children against nighttime arrests, provides the right to have a parent present during interrogations and limits the amount of time children may be detained before being able to consult a lawyer and to be presented before a justice.
Israeli authorities, however, regularly arrest Palestinian children during nighttime raids, interrogate them without a guardian present, hold them for longer periods before bringing them before a judge and hold those as young as 12 in lengthy pretrial detention. The Association for Civil Rights in Israel found in 2017 that authorities kept 72 percent of Palestinian children from the West Bank in custody until the end of proceedings, but only 17.9 percent of children in Israel.
Monitoring the treatment of children in military detention, 2014-2023:
https://www.militarycourtwatch.org/page.php?id=xsTLcL44b4a1787880Aha01W0W3Q6
Better to be arrested than killed, though. this is from before the current war.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-27-2024, 05:54 PM)Dill Wrote: Are Native Americans on US reservations voting American citizens who own the land they live on?
This is as off as your Pearl Harbor analogy. The occupation is still invisible to you.
But that's only the second confusion.
The first is that someone is arguing it's ok to rape an murder people.
But that is easiest to refute, so it looks like you are sticking with that.
Classic Dill. Found one point in a huge post that he could nitpick. Ignores the rest. Keep flailing, bro.
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 59
Reputation:
43512
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-27-2024, 06:23 PM)Dill Wrote: For the guy who smells "lies" everywhere: How many "uninformed" protestors already know this?
Why Does Israel Have So Many Palestinians in Detention and Available to Swap?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/11/29/why-does-israel-have-so-many-palestinians-detention-and-available-swap
As of November 1, Israeli authorities held nearly 7,000 Palestinians from the occupied territory in detention for alleged security offenses, according to the Israeli human rights organization HaMoked. Far more Palestinians have been arrested since the October 7 attacks in Israel than have been released in the last week. Among those being held are dozens of women and scores of children.
The majority have never been convicted of a crime, including more than 2,000 of them being held in administrative detention, in which the Israeli military detains a person without charge or trial. Such detention can be renewed indefinitely based on secret information, which the detainee is not allowed to see. Administrative detainees are held on the presumption that they might commit an offense at some point in the future. Israeli authorities have held children, human rights defenders and Palestinian political activists, among others, in administrative detention, often for prolonged periods.
The large number of Palestinian detainees is primarily the result of separate criminal justice systems Israeli authorities maintain in the occupied territory. The nearly 3 million Palestinians who live in the occupied West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem, are ruled by military law and prosecuted in military courts. By contrast, the nearly half a million Israeli settlers in the West Bank are governed under civil and criminal law and tried in Israeli civil courts. Discrimination pervades every aspect of this system....
Discrimination also pervades the treatment of children. Israeli civil law protects children against nighttime arrests, provides the right to have a parent present during interrogations and limits the amount of time children may be detained before being able to consult a lawyer and to be presented before a justice.
Israeli authorities, however, regularly arrest Palestinian children during nighttime raids, interrogate them without a guardian present, hold them for longer periods before bringing them before a judge and hold those as young as 12 in lengthy pretrial detention. The Association for Civil Rights in Israel found in 2017 that authorities kept 72 percent of Palestinian children from the West Bank in custody until the end of proceedings, but only 17.9 percent of children in Israel.
Monitoring the treatment of children in military detention, 2014-2023:
https://www.militarycourtwatch.org/page.php?id=xsTLcL44b4a1787880Aha01W0W3Q6
Better to be arrested than killed, though. this is from before the current war.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
Yes, more Dill lies. You have failed to provide the following. How many Palestinians are wrongfully imprisoned? How many "children" are imprisoned? (a child is someone under 14 years of age) How many of them are wrongfully detained? All of this needs to be established before you can being to make the claim that "free all Palestinians" doesn't encompass terrorists, which we already know it does.
Maybe blame Hamas for recruiting teenagers to engage in acts of terrorism? Hate to break this to you, but I've been part of well over a hundred cases in which a person under eighteen ended up being tried, and convicted in adult court, for heinous offenses. None of them were "children" and all of them were guilty. Sounds like your issue is really with the terrorist organization that uses children to do their dirty work. Much like criminal organizations, such as Mara Salvatrucha, Hamas uses the uninformed, the gullible and the callow to enact their plans. As perfectly exemplified by college campuses right now.
Poor Dill, having to advocate for terrorists is quite the uphill climb.
Posts: 11,820
Threads: 131
Reputation:
32591
Joined: May 2015
Mood: None
(04-27-2024, 06:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, more Dill lies. You have failed to provide the following. How many Palestinians are wrongfully imprisoned? How many "children" are imprisoned? (a child is someone under 14 years of age) How many of them are wrongfully detained? All of this needs to be established before you can being to make the claim that "free all Palestinians" doesn't encompass terrorists, which we already know it does.
The challenge of responding to you is first and foremost sorting out the muddle of projection and misdirection.
First point to make: no one is arguing that no Hamas are in Palestinian jails. Again you are refuting an argument that doesn't exist. My argument is that advocating to free imprisoned Palestinians does not make protestors "advocates for Hamas" just because some Hamas might be imprisoned too. Protestors think the occupation is illegal and the thousands jailed under its military rule are illegally imprisoned. They are advocating for the human rights of those thousands of innocents.
You asked "What children?" Since you weren't "informed" (as the protestors undoubtedly are) that Israel routinely arrests children, claps them in irons, and holds them for days, weeks and months without a hearing, all that "needs to be established" is that there are children, hundreds, in Israeli detention, and the IDF has been doing this for decades. I've established that.
Israeli law does not go by your definition of a child. It accepts the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, which defines a "child" as anyone under 18. https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/crc/docs/crc-c-opac-isr-co-1.pdf Israel arrests and prosecutes children from age 12 up.
The boy detained in the picture accompanying this article is 10 years old.
880 Palestinian children detained by Israel this year: NGO
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231120-880-palestinian-children-detained-by-israel-this-year-ngo/
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/palestinian-children-israeli-military-detention-report-increasingly-violent-conditions
As far as "how many children are wrongfully imprisoned"? If you think the occupation and military courts are legal, then all of them are. But even
if you consider military rule and detention legal, there's still a problem. Thousands of Palestinians were detained before Oct. 7 and many have been
held without charge for years. Israelis can extend detention without public explanation. There is no transparency.
As of Sept. '23, 146 children were in custody. https://www.btselem.org/statistics/minors_in_custody.
In the last 5 months that number has increased by hundreds.
Israel holds over 1,200 detainees without charge. That’s the most in 3 decades, a rights group says [99% Palestinian]
https://apnews.com/article/israel-detention-jails-palestinians-west-bank-793a3b2a1ce8439d08756da8c63e5435
(04-27-2024, 06:38 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Maybe blame Hamas for recruiting teenagers to engage in acts of terrorism? Hate to break this to you, but I've been part of well over a hundred cases in which a person under eighteen ended up being tried, and convicted in adult court, for heinous offenses. None of them were "children" and all of them were guilty. Sounds like your issue is really with the terrorist organization that uses children to do their dirty work. Much like criminal organizations, such as Mara Salvatrucha, Hamas uses the uninformed, the gullible and the callow to enact their plans. As perfectly exemplified by college campuses right now.
Poor Dill, having to advocate for terrorists is quite the uphill climb.
So, not being informed that hundreds of children have been and continued to be imprisoned in Israel, under a system of military rule which does not accord them the same basic rights as Israeli or US citizens, you fill this vacuum of knowledge with speculation about Hamas training not-really-children to commit really heinous offenses of which they are certainly "guilty." THAT must be how so many get arrested. Like MS 13 (which I believe you have also accused me of "supporting").
But according to virtually every human rights organization monitoring the arrest of Palestinian children, they mostly land in jail for violating "military orders" which restrict what we call 1A rights. Also many are stonethrowers resisting occupation. Here's an eyewitness account of a 14 year-olds arrest from a Time reporter in 2012 https://time.com/6366734/palestinian-child-detainees/
Here's a report from 2018. Israel/OPT: Ahed Tamimi release a bittersweet moment as other Palestinian children languish in Israeli jails
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2018/07/ahed-tamimi-release-a-bittersweet-moment-as-other-palestinian-children-languish-in-israeli-jails/
The Israeli army prosecutes hundreds of Palestinian children in military courts every year, often after arresting them in night raids and systematically subjecting them to ill-treatment, including blindfolding, threats, harsh interrogations without the presence of their lawyers or families, solitary confinement and in some cases physical violence.
Military courts prosecute Palestinians for violating military orders, many of which criminalize peaceful activities such as peaceful political expression or organizing and attending protests without prior permission from an Israeli military commander.
|
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
