Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

(04-03-2024, 02:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: I never claimed to be an expert...I voiced my opinion that if the Israeli army is incapable of not bombing aide workers that have been cleared by the Israeli army they have some serious issues.

But the guy who questions your expertise once said "Russia would steamroll Europe without the US." Then blamed the misjudgment on unnamed "military experts." 

Maybe you shouldn't trust his evaluation here. You don't appear to be substituting factual determination for continual referenda on "trustworthiness," 
so in this case  I tend to trust your judgment more. lol

(04-03-2024, 02:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: All around the world, even within Israel there is waning support for Netanyahu's actions.  Are they all wrong?  

You're being pressured to limit findings before you consider evidence. I.e., to pre-judge where facts should or could lead.

You may be accused of supporting Hamas if you don't conform, though.  And it could continue on other threads. Be warned. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-04-2024, 10:49 AM)Dill Wrote: I went back and checked. #219. 

In answer to your question about number of "atrocities," Dino's buddy said:  If you mean war crimes and violations of IHL, then 

I'd say the record shows the IDF does so with greater frequency, with much greater destruction and loss of life.

So it looks like Dino's buddy was treating this as a factual question. Then he posted some links about the history of IDF war crimes,
which would go a long ways to deciding that factual question on empirical grounds. 

You never responded, though. So maybe it wasn't a factual question for you. You have another narrative, so you just kept plowing ahead with that one.

Thank you for admitting I was right.  You did say the IDF was worse than Hamas in this regard.


As to your sources on IDF war crimes, I did respond to them.  I just refused to endlessly repeat myself as you like to repeat the same points over and over.  Anyone can read the thread and find them.  It's in post 138 (We Are 138) if anyone cares to look.

[Luvnit2]

Biden attempting to tell Israel how to fight their war. Biden demanding an immediate cease fire, or they will face consequences from US.

Does Biden know Israel and Hamas were in the middle of a cease fire on October 7th, the day Hamas soldiers brutally slaughtered civilian, senior citizens, raped women, killed babies and too 200 hostages.

Why should Israel trust Hamas ever again? Why would the trust humanitarian aid would go 100% to innocent Palestinians? Why would Israel allow Hamas to reload and regroup to kill their soldiers and their citizens?

[Dill]

(04-04-2024, 11:31 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Thank you for admitting I was right.  You did say the IDF was worse than Hamas in this regard.

As to your sources on IDF war crimes, I did respond to them.  I just refused to endlessly repeat myself as you like to repeat the same points over and over.  Anyone can read the thread and find them.  It's in post 138 (We Are 138) if anyone cares to look.

Did you say IDF war crimes have killed more people than Hamas? That's what I was "admitting."

As far as your post #138, that's where you "responded" to an article about torture of children by claiming 
it made no mention of torture. In a follow up #14I quoted part of the article to show what you obviously hadn't read. 

Yes, torture of children. Israel. IDF. 

Similarly, all through #138 you simply and erroneously dismissed evidence of war crimes as "anecdotal." 

You are not refusing to repeat yourself, but rather to engage with evidence. But you did "respond," sure.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-07-2024, 08:39 AM)Dill Wrote: Did you say IDF war crimes have killed more people than Hamas? That's what I was "admitting."

As far as your post #138, that's where you "responded" to an article about torture of children by claiming 
it made no mention of torture. In a follow up #14I quoted part of the article to show what you obviously hadn't read. 

Yes, torture of children. Israel. IDF. 

Similarly, all through #138 you simply and erroneously dismissed evidence of war crimes as "anecdotal." 

You are not refusing to repeat yourself, but rather to engage with evidence. But you did "respond," sure.

too many posts to dig thru for my question.

Did you say that Israel/IDF is committing genocide against the Palestinians?

[Dill]

(04-07-2024, 03:10 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: too many posts to dig thru for my question.

Did you say that Israel/IDF is committing genocide against the Palestinians?

No. Not yet.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-07-2024, 08:39 AM)Dill Wrote: Similarly, all through #138 you simply and erroneously dismissed evidence of war crimes as "anecdotal." 

You are not refusing to repeat yourself, but rather to engage with evidence. But you did "respond," sure.

It was all anecdotal.  It was nothing but personal testimony of what is claimed to have happened.  Personal accounts are the very definition of anecdotal evidence.

(04-07-2024, 03:10 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: too many posts to dig thru for my question.

Did you say that Israel/IDF is committing genocide against the Palestinians?

No.  I asked him if he thought the IDF was as bad an actor as Hamas.  His response was that they were worse as they commit more violence more frequently.  So, he thinks the IDF is worse than Hamas and that Israel has no right to exist as it has since it's reformation post WW2.  In his own words.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/us/protesters-in-michigan-chant-death-to-america-israel/articleshow/109125768.cms




Large protest on the last day of Ramadan, or Al-Quds day (ask Dill about it), in Dearborn, Michigan.  Chants of "Death to America" and "Death to Israel" were made.  We hear a lot on this board how having people like white supremacists on your side shows your position is a bad one.  I wonder if that same sentiment will extend to this topic?  Also, anyone surprised to find out this is Rashida Tlaib's district?  Maybe they mean death to America in the nice way, just like "From the river to the sea"?

[Dill]

(04-07-2024, 04:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It was all anecdotal.  It was nothing but personal testimony of what is claimed to have happened.  Personal accounts are the very definition of anecdotal evidence.

No. Personal testimony is not simply "the very definition of anecdotal," especially after it has been cross-checked and compiled by experts tasked by governments and NGOs to do that. That's just a poor understanding of how personal observations are determined to be credible and set to record. And you appear to be fine with accepting "personal testimony" about Hamas atrocities even before it is vetted.

Here is another quote from that article on child torture you dismissed without reading:  
 
"Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted," it said.

 The aforementioned soldiers, given a light sentence for using a 9-year-old as a human shield, were convicted on evidence the Israeli court did not consider "anecdotal."  

(04-07-2024, 04:02 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No.  I asked him if he thought the IDF was as bad an actor as Hamas.  His response was that they were worse as they commit more violence more frequently.  So, he thinks the IDF is worse than Hamas and that Israel has no right to exist as it has since it's reformation post WW2.  In his own words.

Again. No. You asked: "Do you think the IDF commits atrocities on par with those of Hamas and at the same, or greater, frequency?" (#175)

That looks like a question about quantity/number which can be answered by fact and historical data. So my response was: "If you mean war crimes and violations of IHL, then I'd say the record shows the IDF does so with greater frequency, with much greater destruction and loss of life. But when I've mentioned their sordid record in the past you've simply denied/ignored the facts or introduced a time limit. Do you mean just since last year or what?"  (#190)

And you've since shown no interest in verifying the answer. I didn't say Israel was "worse" than Hamas.

You just reworded my answer to fit your agenda--same as you did to Dino just before that. Your MO. 

I've already dealt with your re-wording of my "own words" on Israel's right to exist on the "Democrats Losing All Credibility" thread (#122). But here, as there, you continue to prefer your re-wording of my words.

[Dill]

(04-07-2024, 03:10 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: too many posts to dig thru for my question.

Did you say that Israel/IDF is committing genocide against the Palestinians?

BTW I did address the question of whether Hamas is committing genocide against Israel.

Post # 181. My discussion is anchored in the UN definition of genocide.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-09-2024, 06:30 AM)Dill Wrote:  

Again. No. You asked: "Do you think the IDF commits atrocities on par with those of Hamas and at the same, or greater, frequency?" (#175)

That looks like a question about quantity/number which can be answered by fact and historical data. So my response was: "If you mean war crimes and violations of IHL, then I'd say the record shows the IDF does so with greater frequency, with much greater destruction and loss of life. But when I've mentioned their sordid record in the past you've simply denied/ignored the facts or introduced a time limit. Do you mean just since last year or what?"  (#190)

And you've since shown no interest in verifying the answer. I didn't say Israel was "worse" than Hamas.

You said, and it's above as well, "the IDF does so with greater frequency, with much greater destruction and loss of life."  That makes them "worse" actors.  Quit hiding behind wordplay.  If I ask who between two murders, X and Y, is the worst and your answer is, "X killed more people in a more brutal way", you just answered that "X" was worse.  You don't have to literally say "X is worse" for that to be understood as your answer.  


So again, spare us your mealy-mouthed attempts at deflection.

[Dill]

(04-09-2024, 10:52 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You said, and it's above as well, "the IDF does so with greater frequency, with much greater destruction and loss of life."  That makes them "worse" actors.  Quit hiding behind wordplay.  If I ask who between two murders, X and Y, is the worst and your answer is, "X killed more people in a more brutal way", you just answered that "X" was worse.  You don't have to literally say "X is worse" for that to be understood as your answer. 

So again, spare us your mealy-mouthed attempts at deflection.

No. Doesn't necessarily make them "worse."   Israel still has progressives and leftists with some influence over the IDF.

You are confusing quality and quantity again.

But if, by your standards, the IDF is worse because of it commits more war crimes and kills more people,

then you are yourself saying they are worse, or you are denying the factual record.


PS what about all the other stuff you missed, the misreading, inexpert vetting, and mischaracterization etc. No comment on that?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Hamas states it doesn't even have forty living hostages to trade in a cease fire deal.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4585183-hamas-40-israeli-hostages-ceasefire-deal/

But it’s unclear how Hamas’s inability to release the hostages it kidnapped — whether they are alive or dead — will impact the negotiations. Hamas has claimed that Israeli airstrikes have killed some of the hostages.

Huh, who could have predicted they'd make this claim? It's almost like what Hamas is doing is readily apparent and completely obvious to anyone actually paying attention and not focusing their entire attention, and every post, on what Israel is doing in response to Hamas's attacks.

[GMDino]

(04-11-2024, 12:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hamas states it doesn't even have forty living hostages to trade in a cease fire deal.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/4585183-hamas-40-israeli-hostages-ceasefire-deal/

But it’s unclear how Hamas’s inability to release the hostages it kidnapped — whether they are alive or dead — will impact the negotiations. Hamas has claimed that Israeli airstrikes have killed some of the hostages.

Huh, who could have predicted they'd make this claim?  It's almost like what Hamas is doing is readily apparent and completely obvious to anyone actually paying attention and not focusing their entire attention, and every post, on what Israel is doing in response to Hamas's attacks.

I heard that just a little while ago.

I imagine some of the victims, who were described as elderly or sick, did die.  Some may have been killed by Hamas.  Some may have died during the bombings trying to force Hamas out of hiding too.

It's very sad.

War is hell, they say.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-11-2024, 12:11 PM)GMDino Wrote: I heard that just a little while ago.

I imagine some of the victims, who were described as elderly or sick, did die.  Some may have been killed by Hamas.  Some may have died during the bombings trying to force Hamas out of hiding too.

It's very sad. 

War is hell, they say.

Incorrect.  They were all killed by Hamas. 

[GMDino]

(04-11-2024, 12:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Incorrect.  They were all killed by Hamas. 

Oh!  Where did you see that?

Or is this something you "know"?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-11-2024, 12:33 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh!  Where did you see that?

Or is this something you "know"?

It's a fact.  All of them were kidnapped by Hamas.  All of them died while prisoners of Hamas.  If Hamas had not kidnapped them, or had let them go, they would not be dead.  Hamas is responsible for the death of every single dead hostage.  Facts are facts.  I know my introducing a post actually about Hamas is probably disconcerting for you, but you'll have to learn to deal with it.

[GMDino]

(04-11-2024, 12:42 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's a fact.  All of them were kidnapped by Hamas.  All of them died while prisoners of Hamas.  If Hamas had not kidnapped them, or had let them go, they would not be dead.  Hamas is responsible for the death of every single dead hostage.  Facts are facts.  I know my introducing a post actually about Hamas is probably disconcerting for you, but you'll have to learn to deal with it.

So you meant Hamas' actions...not they actually killed them themselves.

Got it.

[Dill]

(04-11-2024, 01:41 PM)GMDino Wrote: So you meant Hamas' actions...not they actually killed them themselves.

Got it.

Well first he was speaking to Hamas' claim that airstrikes killed some hostages, not Hamas themselves.

Now he means if Israeli snipers killed a couple, shirtless with a white flag, then Hamas really killed them.
The snipers would not have killed them if Hamas had not kidnapped them.

Same if Israel bombed a house where hostages were kept, it's Hamas' fault.

People who don't "mitigate" Hamas' actions know,
the occupiers bear no responsibility--"facts are facts."

Not sure if the families of the hostages agree, though. Learn to deal with this special moral clarity, Dino.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-11-2024, 01:41 PM)GMDino Wrote: So you meant Hamas' actions...not they actually killed them themselves.

Got it.

Hamas caused their deaths.  They are responsible for their murder.  it's not that complicated.

Got it?

(04-11-2024, 03:31 PM)Dill Wrote: Well first he was speaking to Hamas' claim that airstrikes killed some hostages, not Hamas themselves.

Even if an airstrike caused their death the person responsible for their being killed is Hamas.

Quote:Now he means if Israeli snipers killed a couple, shirtless with a white flag, then Hamas really killed them.
The snipers would not have killed them if Hamas had not kidnapped them.

Unless you assertion is that the snipers killed them intentionally, knowing who they were, and I would not put that past you at all, then yes.  Hamas is responsible for killed them.

Quote:Same if Israel bombed a house where hostages were kept, it's Hamas' fault.

Absolutely.  How would it not be?

Quote:People who don't "mitigate" Hamas' actions know,
the occupiers bear no responsibility--"facts are facts."

The "occupiers"?!?  Gaza was not occupied by anyone but the Palestinians and their elected Hamas overlords until Hamas declared war on Israel with a cowardly sneak attack on civilians.

Quote:Not sure if the families of the hostages agree, though. Learn to deal with this special moral clarity, Dino.

Oh, I'm quite certain they all hold Hamas ultimately responsible.  They may take issue with Netanyahu's attempts to retrieve their loved ones, but I can rather safely say none of them hold anyone more responsible for their loved one's deaths than the animals in Hamas.

Say a person takes a hostage.  A police sniper is given the order to take out the hostage taker.  The shot is fired, hits the hostage taker, but a fragment of the bullet splits off and kills the hostage.  Did the sniper kill the hostage or did the hostage taker cause their death?

Also, good to see your buddy finds the deaths of hostages a source of amusement though.  This thread has really shed a light on what passes for the values of some of our left leaning posters.  Rather abhorrent.