Israel/Hamas War Superthread

[Dill]

(04-13-2024, 12:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote: [url=http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Israel-Hamas-War-Superthread?pid=1472900#pid1472900][/url]To repeat: SSF says acknowledging/criticizing actual Israeli war crimes is antisemitism.

Ahh, I see we've run out of deflection and all that is left in the bag is outright lying. 

Ahhh, not sure we've "seen" anything like deflection and outright lying. Just more saying we have.

You've certainly called me an antisemite, the only person in this forum to get that honor, according to you.
And the trigger is not praise for the Israeli left and human rights organizations, but flagging Israeli violations of international law.

Let's clear this up then. You are ok with acknowledging/criticizing actual Israeli war crimes. 

Doing so does not make people antisemitic, right?  But perhaps doing so is "apologizing" for Hamas, and THAT is antisemtic?

A non-deflector who doesn't lie should be able to clear this up with some direct answers.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-13-2024, 06:40 PM)Dill Wrote: You've certainly called me an antisemite, the only person in this forum to get that honor, according to you.

As you initiated this, I will do you the courtesy of responding to your assertion.  Yes, and yes.

Quote:And the trigger is not praise for the Israeli left and human rights organizations, but flagging Israeli violations of international law.

Incorrect on every count.  The trigger for this is your persistent, and consistent, criticism of Israel on every level.  Your denial of Israel's right to exist in any form since its reformation.  Your continued mitigation of the actions of Islamic extremists, including ISIS, Hamas and Al Qaeda.  You acknowledgement, via your posts, of the wrongdoings of Israel but barely a peep on the wrongdoings of Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalist extremists.  You even gleefully hijacked a thread about Israeli hostages with this type of tripe, responding "this thread is fine for me" when informed of your deliberate hijacking.  You cloak yourself in erudition and scholarly examination all the while espousing virulent dislike, if not hatred for one side and very little, if any condemnation for the other.  This thread on its own is proof.

You equate Hamas to elements of the Israeli government as equally bad actors.  You equate Hamas to the IDF, only in that case you claim the IDF is worse as they engage in more violent action more frequently.  I don't think most people would need more than one of those admissions, let alone the two you've provided.

Quote:Let's clear this up then. You are ok with acknowledging/criticizing actual Israeli war crimes. 

Yup.

Quote:Doing so does not make people antisemitic, right?  But perhaps doing so is "apologizing" for Hamas, and THAT is antisemtic?

On its own, no.  But you're conflating what you're doing with only legitimate criticism.  It is not confined to that and it never has been.  Hence your earning your own special "merit" badge.

Quote:A non-deflector who doesn't lie should be able to clear this up with some direct answers.

Most definitely.

[samhain]

Meanwhile, we got ourselves a new front in the war.

Iran launched about 150 missiles/drones, which were mostly (according to reports) intercepted before hitting Isreali targets.

Damage may or may not be significant, but the change in protocol is. Iran almost always attacks though the proxy of Hezbollah. An all out state sanctioned attack is highly unusual.

Israeli will likely respond in kind, very likely disproportionately. At this point, I'm unsure where this all ends. My not-so-sure bet is that this is a very bad situation for Tehran.

[NATI BENGALS]

Saw a comment saying Netanyahu is the wild card here. He could nuke Tehran.

I sure hope not.

I have a hard time coming up with an ideal response. Where does the escalation stop? Nuclear Armageddon? Stupid ass religious war is like little kids fighting, who is going to get the last jab in?

[GMDino]

(04-13-2024, 06:40 PM)Dill Wrote: Ahhh, not sure we've "seen" anything like deflection and outright lying. Just more saying we have.

You've certainly called me an antisemite, the only person in this forum to get that honor, according to you.

And the trigger is not praise for the Israeli left and human rights organizations, but flagging Israeli violations of international law.

Let's clear this up then. You are ok with acknowledging/criticizing actual Israeli war crimes. 

Doing so does not make people antisemitic, right?  But perhaps doing so is "apologizing" for Hamas, and THAT is antisemtic?

A non-deflector who doesn't lie should be able to clear this up with some direct answers.

(04-13-2024, 10:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As you initiated this, I will do you the courtesy of responding to your assertion.  Yes, and yes.




Incorrect on every count.  The trigger for this is your persistent, and consistent, criticism of Israel on every level.  Your denial of Israel's right to exist in any form since its reformation.  Your continued mitigation of the actions of Islamic extremists, including ISIS, Hamas and Al Qaeda.  You acknowledgement, via your posts, of the wrongdoings of Israel but barely a peep on the wrongdoings of Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalist extremists.  You even gleefully hijacked a thread about Israeli hostages with this type of tripe, responding "this thread is fine for me" when informed of your deliberate hijacking.  You cloak yourself in erudition and scholarly examination all the while espousing virulent dislike, if not hatred for one side and very little, if any condemnation for the other.  This thread on its own is proof.

You equate Hamas to elements of the Israeli government as equally bad actors.  You equate Hamas to the IDF, only in that case you claim the IDF is worse as they engage in more violent action more frequently.  I don't think most people would need more than one of those admissions, let alone the two you've provided.




Yup.




On its own, no.  But you're conflating what you're doing with only legitimate criticism.  It is not confined to that and it never has been.  Hence your earning your own special "merit" badge.




Most definitely.

Jebus.  A poster admits to calling another poster an antisemite after the new rules say we can't call people NOT on the boards names that might upset other posters?

What's the limit here?

[samhain]

(04-13-2024, 10:53 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Saw a comment saying Netanyahu is the wild card here. He could nuke Tehran.  

I sure hope not.

I have a hard time coming up with an ideal response. Where does the escalation stop? Nuclear Armageddon? Stupid ass religious war is like little kids fighting, who is going to get the last jab in?

I highly doubt they nuke Tehran.  They can likely counter with conventional weapons.  An action like initiating nuclear war would be in the ballpark of losing support from the US completely.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-13-2024, 11:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: Jebus.  A poster admits to calling another poster an antisemite after the new rules say we can't call people NOT on the boards names that might upset other posters?

What's the limit here?

He specifically asked me to address this.  Is your position that I cannot answer his question directly as asked?  Could you cry about it more, in public?  Why don't you be an actual man for a change and say what you're begging for, that you want me banned because I hurt you in the feelings?  I guess when your arguments are morally and intellectually bankrupt appealing for your opponent to be banned is your only recourse.

What a pathetic display.

[Dill]

(04-13-2024, 10:11 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Dill Wrote:You've certainly called me an antisemite, the only person in this forum to get that honor, according to you.

As you initiated this, I will do you the courtesy of responding to your assertion.  Yes, and yes.

Quote:And the trigger is not praise for the Israeli left and human rights organizations, but flagging Israeli violations of international law.

Incorrect on every count.  The trigger for this is your persistent, and consistent, criticism of Israel on every level.  Your denial of Israel's right to exist in any form since its reformation.  Your continued mitigation of the actions of Islamic extremists, including ISIS, Hamas and Al Qaeda.  You acknowledgement, via your posts, of the wrongdoings of Israel but barely a peep on the wrongdoings of Hamas and other Islamic fundamentalist extremists.  You even gleefully hijacked a thread about Israeli hostages with this type of tripe, responding "this thread is fine for me" when informed of your deliberate hijacking.  You cloak yourself in erudition and scholarly examination all the while espousing virulent dislike, if not hatred for one side and very little, if any condemnation for the other.  This thread on its own is proof.

You equate Hamas to elements of the Israeli government as equally bad actors.  You equate Hamas to the IDF, only in that case you claim the IDF is worse as they engage in more violent action more frequently.  I don't think most people would need more than one of those admissions, let alone the two you've provided.

"Equating" Hamas and the IDF is still just my recognizing Israel's history of violating international law, plus your ignoring the distinctions I've made between them (i.e., Hamas doesn't have a progressive wing, engaged in human rights critique of its own government.)

The only alternative in this false either/or?--silence about IDF war crimes. Enforced as best you can by malicious personal attack. 
This thread is its own proof, as is your too blatant policing of the German hostage thread.

You've been asked in the past to prove all the other accusations--and demurred. You can't deflect that fail by calling me the lying deflector. 
And now I "mitigate" Al Qaeda too. Somewhere, everywhere, but not in any post you can quote. 

So when I acknowledge that the IDF has committed more war crimes killing more people, you treat that as an "admission,"  i.e., a thought crime 
rather a factual statement open to refutation, if such is possible. For if NO RECOGNITION OF IDF WAR CRIMES is the law then it's only the "admission" that counts. Big Brother has his confession and the facts may disappear down the memory hole.

Now on to your final blockbuster "proof" of my antisemitism--I don't criticize Hamas (and now Al Qaeda too) as much as Israel. 

WHY NOT??? DRUMROLLLLLLLL--because so far no one has defended Hamas, or denied it has committed war crimes. Whereas we do have a partisan for the IDF, actively and constantly misrepresenting the roots and nature of the conflict, embracing ethnic distinction to privilege the occupier's "right" to occupy over the human rights of those subjected to military occupation, on thread after thread. 

[Dill]

(04-13-2024, 11:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: Jebus.  A poster admits to calling another poster an antisemite after the new rules say we can't call people NOT on the boards names that might upset other posters?
What's the limit here?

(04-14-2024, 01:48 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: He specifically asked me to address this.  Is your position that I cannot answer his question directly as asked?  Could you cry about it more, in public?  Why don't you be an actual man for a change and say what you're begging for, that you want me banned because I hurt you in the feelings?  I guess when your arguments are morally and intellectually bankrupt appealing for your opponent to be banned is your only recourse.

What a pathetic display.

Lol You gave SSF a bit of a scare, Dino.

Yes, I specifically asked SSF to address his breaking the rules the rest of us follow, creating special exceptions for himself. 
(Or for me, as he sees it. I'm responsible for what he calls me.)

And I'd rather the mods not intervene; I want the opportunity to break down and explain what he is doing. 

E.g., notice he argues it's your "unmanly" flagging of his incivility and contempt for rules that he
considers "intellectually and morally bankrupt," not his malicious personal attacks. 
Like it's YOUR behavior that exposes him to banning, not his.

How does such twisted logic/accountability hurt anyone but him?  You are far from the only one who sees this.
But no one can if the post is deleted.

I understand that the disregard for civility and good order bothers others, but if his posts just disappear,
so does the public critique of that behavior. I'd prefer to keep the record intact, no posts or threads deleted.
Just one man's vote.

[Dill]

(04-13-2024, 10:21 PM)samhain Wrote: Meanwhile, we got ourselves a new front in the war.  
Iran launched about 150 missiles/drones, which were mostly (according to reports) intercepted before hitting Isreali targets.
Damage may or may not be significant, but the change in protocol is.  Iran almost always attacks though the proxy of Hezbollah.  An all out state sanctioned attack is highly unusual.
Israeli will likely respond in kind, very likely disproportionately.  At this point, I'm unsure where this all ends.  My not-so-sure bet is that this is a very bad situation for Tehran.

I think it will be a bad situation for all of us.  20-30% of the world's total oil consumption goes through the Strait of Hormuz, including that for our allies and for China, which is not likely to sit back and watch it's oil supply restricted. A war with Iran will paralyze the world economy to some degree, depending on how severely it is pursued and for how long, and it will involve players well beyond the ME.

This is the first time Iran has directly attacked Israel, and probably had to, given the direct attack on its embassy which killed its diplomats.
We'd call that "terrorism" if Syria did it to the Israeli embassy in the US. An embassy is a special target, an attack on another country's home
soil, on still another country's home soil, and in violations of international convention protecting diplomats.

(04-13-2024, 10:53 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Saw a comment saying Netanyahu is the wild card here. He could nuke Tehran.  
I sure hope not.
I have a hard time coming up with an ideal response. Where does the escalation stop? Nuclear Armageddon? Stupid ass religious war is like little kids fighting, who is going to get the last jab in?

I don't think he'll nuke Teheran--yet. 

But yes, Netanyahu is the wild card who makes it hard to de-escalate. 
I fear the embassy attack may have been an attempt to lever the US more directly into the conflict.
(Not claiming that; I'm just wondering why make a move which forces Iran to take a big risk.)

Right now his interests (staying in power, postponing an Oct 7 reckoning) may be at odds with Israel's national interest
--which is not in a wider war with Hezbollah and Iran. 

I'm betting both Iran and the US are back-channeling frantically to stop an expanded war right now.

This is not about religion so much as the existence of the ME states involved, or at least the leadership/government in each case.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-14-2024, 10:28 AM)Dill Wrote: Lol You gave SSF a bit of a scare, Dino.

[Luvnit2]

Israel has been defending missiles and drone from south Lebanon and from Hamas almost daily. Israel does not flaunt their injuries or deaths from terrorist organizations. Soldiers have been killed as well.

The recent Iran strike has at least one 7-year-old child left in critical condition. Yet, Biden continues to tell Israel to not respond. Biden's weakness as emboldened terrorists to attack not only Israel, but our troops on foreign soil.

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-15-2024, 01:27 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Israel has been defending missiles and drone from south Lebanon and from Hamas almost daily. Israel does not flaunt their injuries or deaths from terrorist organizations. Soldiers have been killed as well.

The recent Iran strike has at least one 7-year-old child left in critical condition. Yet, Biden continues to tell Israel to not respond. Biden's weakness as emboldened terrorists to attack not only Israel, but our troops on foreign soil.

Would you like more death and destruction? And the situation to continue to escalate until we have WWIII?

Or would you like de-escalation?

[Dill]

(04-15-2024, 05:22 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Would you like more death and destruction? And the situation to continue to escalate until we have WWIII?

Or would you like de-escalation?

Real men don't worry about that.

Biden sounds like a girly-man, all worried about "proportionality" in Gaza and pushing diplomacy crap.

If we play this right, we could get the upper hand on Russia and China too! 

 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-14-2024, 10:48 AM)Dill Wrote: This is the first time Iran has directly attacked Israel, and probably had to, given the direct attack on its embassy which killed its diplomats.
We'd call that "terrorism" if Syria did it to the Israeli embassy in the US. An embassy is a special target, an attack on another country's home
soil, on still another country's home soil, and in violations of international convention protecting diplomats.

They have been supplying Hamas, so indirectly already attacking Israel. 

If you call that terrorism then what has Hamas been doing? He was lobbing missiles supplied by .... IRAN, on to Israel's soil, they weren't "laser" guided so he wasn't selectively targeting Hamas was going for anything they could, but Israel selectively targets an Iranian Embassy and kills a top Iranian General and you whining about it being Terrorism or better yet, another violation. 

As long as Iran is supplying Hamas, they are a part of the war. Maybe they aren't getting the message. "Don't" 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-15-2024, 05:22 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Would you like more death and destruction? And the situation to continue to escalate until we have WWIII?

Or would you like de-escalation?

How do you think this is going to end with Iran still supplying Hamas? 

Israel won't likely stop til Hamas does. 

I don't understand you guys thinking at all. Hamas thru Iran re-escalated this into a war. Israel is responding the way they are being forced to. 

I would love to see Iran's Islamic leadership tossed out. 

[NATI BENGALS]

(04-15-2024, 08:36 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: How do you think this is going to end with Iran still supplying Hamas? 

Israel won't likely stop til Hamas does. 

I don't understand you guys thinking at all. Hamas thru Iran re-escalated this into a war. Israel is responding the way they are being forced to. 

I would love to see Iran's Islamic leadership tossed out. 

I’m afraid a stupid ass religious war doesn’t end. Unless God shows up and ends it or if we can convince all the hardcore religious types their religion is wrong. And I don’t see either of those happening.

So somebody needs to stand up and say enough is enough. Or they can just keep taking turns attacking killing and destroying until they pull the whole region and eventually the world into their bullshit fighting.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-15-2024, 09:18 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I’m afraid a stupid ass religious war doesn’t end. Unless God shows up and ends it or if we can convince all the hardcore religious types their religion is wrong. And I don’t see either of those happening.

So somebody needs to stand up and say enough is enough. Or they can just keep taking turns attacking killing and destroying until they pull the whole region and eventually the world into their bullshit fighting.

We agree about the role religion plays in this conflict.  Given that role, what do you think could be done to actually end this conflict and, as you put it, "Or they can just keep taking turns attacking killing and destroying until they pull the whole region and eventually the world into their bullshit fighting."


What would actually prevent that, in your opinion?

[samhain]

Arguments aside, the attacks from Iran have to be the most telegraphed act of war in recent history. It seemed imminent for more than a week and when it happened it was very underwhelming.

2 half cocked theories I heard: Iran telegraphed it's plans through the Jordanian government to make sure the west would neutralize the incoming drones/missles and avoid significant retaliation.

The second one is that the attack fell flat because it was intended. Iran merely lobbed 150 missiles into Israel to make them show their defenses and what they could handle.

I dunno if either are true, but on its face the lack of damage is a bad look for Tehran. It makes them look ineffective.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-15-2024, 10:09 PM)samhain Wrote: Arguments aside, the attacks from Iran have to be the most telegraphed act of war in recent history.  It seemed imminent for more than a week and when it happened it was very underwhelming.  

2 half cocked theories I heard: Iran telegraphed it's plans through the Jordanian government to make sure the west would neutralize the incoming drones/missles and avoid significant retaliation.  

The second one is that the attack fell flat because it was intended.  Iran merely lobbed 150 missiles into Israel to make them show their defenses and what they could handle.

I dunno if either are true, but on its face the lack of damage is a bad look for Tehran.  It makes them look ineffective.

It's called saving face. After the attack on their Embassy, they had to retaliate so as to not appear weak. And i doubt Israel will retaliate.
Israel sent a message, stop supplying Hamas. Iran knows Israel is no joke, whether the US is backing them or not.