It's insanity! The war on Christianity......

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-15-2015, 11:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Where is God "being afraid of what man could accomplish" in the Bible?

The story of the Tower of Babel is one, in which, God shows his displeasure in what man thinks he can do. They think they can build a tower to heaven and become like God. He shows them how wrong they are. Not sure where he ever feared what they could do. 

Quote:Genesis 11:

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

This seems to fly in the face of "free will".  We are told he didn't interfere with Adam and Eve because of "free will", yet ironically he interjects himself in a futile and harmless attempt by men to build a skyscraper that stretches to the heavens.

The story seems bizarre because an all knowing God would already know the limits of man and if " free will" truly existed he would not have interfered.  Otherwise, it seems man is only "free" to do the "will" of God.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Here is one explanation about "The Tower Of Babel" taken from http://www.christianbiblereference.org

Accept it or not, it's up to you.

"On the surface, the story of the Tower of Babel offers an explanation for the many different languages spoken on earth. But there is much more to the story.

In ancient times, people thought the heavens were not far above the earth. If only they could build a tower to the sky, they could climb up and be like gods themselves. Mankind had once again lost sight of God and become arrogant and self-sufficient.

God, of course, saw this as pure arrogance. He put an end to the people's delusions of being powerful and important like gods.

We may be tempted to think we no longer need to trust and obey God. We may believe our learning, sophistication and technology are all we need to be self-sufficient and guarantee our security. The lesson of the Tower of Babel is that such self-sufficiency is a delusion. History has shown that many nations and their leaders have fallen into the trap of arrogance and self sufficiency. Like Babel, those nations have eventually ended up in ruins."

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-16-2015, 07:59 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Here is one explanation about "The Tower Of Babel" taken from http://www.christianbiblereference.org

Accept it or not, it's up to you.

"On the surface, the story of the Tower of Babel offers an explanation for the many different languages spoken on earth. But there is much more to the story.

In ancient times, people thought the heavens were not far above the earth. If only they could build a tower to the sky, they could climb up and be like gods themselves. Mankind had once again lost sight of God and become arrogant and self-sufficient.

God, of course, saw this as pure arrogance. He put an end to the people's delusions of being powerful and important like gods.

We may be tempted to think we no longer need to trust and obey God. We may believe our learning, sophistication and technology are all we need to be self-sufficient and guarantee our security. The lesson of the Tower of Babel is that such self-sufficiency is a delusion. History has shown that many nations and their leaders have fallen into the trap of arrogance and self sufficiency. Like Babel, those nations have eventually ended up in ruins."

Lucky us: we have an omniscient god who is not only smart enough to see that it wasn't impossible for human beings to build a tower that reached heaven, but also has the wisdom to realize that human beings need to have their asses kicked for being non-omniscient enough to do silly things.

[BigPapaKain]

I've seen more people 'persecuted' by Christians than vice-versa. Nothing like condeming a non-believer to your Hell just because they don't believe your particular Middle Eastern's fairy tales.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 07:59 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Here is one explanation about "The Tower Of Babel" taken from http://www.christianbiblereference.org

Accept it or not, it's up to you.

"On the surface, the story of the Tower of Babel offers an explanation for the many different languages spoken on earth. But there is much more to the story.

In ancient times, people thought the heavens were not far above the earth. If only they could build a tower to the sky, they could climb up and be like gods themselves. Mankind had once again lost sight of God and become arrogant and self-sufficient.

God, of course, saw this as pure arrogance. He put an end to the people's delusions of being powerful and important like gods.

We may be tempted to think we no longer need to trust and obey God. We may believe our learning, sophistication and technology are all we need to be self-sufficient and guarantee our security. The lesson of the Tower of Babel is that such self-sufficiency is a delusion. History has shown that many nations and their leaders have fallen into the trap of arrogance and self sufficiency. Like Babel, those nations have eventually ended up in ruins."

This excuse is lacking:

Quote:Genesis 3:5:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

If God was concerned with "arrogance" of man to think they could become god like, that was sort of the selling point the serpent used to convince Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, and yet God didn't feel the need to intervene.  Had he done so in this instance it would have had a greater impact for the betterment of his creation than the silly Babel tower that wasn't ever going to get built anyways.

And did that story really need an outside explanation?  It seems rather plainly stated.

[Belsnickel]

I've always found it interesting how literal people take the Bible in their efforts to denigrate Christians, and in particular Biblical literalists/fundamentalists.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(10-16-2015, 08:14 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: This excuse is lacking:




If God was concerned with "arrogance" of man to think they could become god like, that was sort of the selling point the serpent used to convince Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge, and yet God didn't feel the need to intervene.  Had he done so in this instance it would have had a greater impact for the betterment of his creation than the silly Babel tower that wasn't ever going to get built anyways.

And did that story really need an outside explanation?  It seems rather plainly stated.

Like I said, accept it or not, it's up to you.

If you really want to know any answer to any question about the Bible or Christianity, your best bet is to call up you local Baptist church and talk to a pastor. A football message board isn't the place to seek answers to questions you may have. While there can be discussion and debate on different subjects on this message board, there is no way possible to be able to have a meaningful and in depth discussion here. I suspect that most here asking questions, starting threads and tossing out ridicule don't really want answers, they just want to make fun and troll.

No one here will change another's mind. This subsection is nothing more than a giant troll. While it can be fun at times, it always turns into name calling, hyperbole, ridicule and disdain for each other. Seriously, just read the post two above yours to see what I mean.

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-16-2015, 08:42 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've always found it interesting how literal people take the Bible in their efforts to denigrate Christians, and in particular Biblical literalists/fundamentalists.

Whilst I'm glad there are many Christians who don't take the Bible literally, a. there are still many, especially in this country, who do and b. I've yet to hear any kind of a real explanation as to how we should determine what parts of the Bible are literal and what parts are not. It seems to me a rather convenient card that is pulled whenever any of the countless absurd parts of the Bible are being discussed--"don't take it literally!!"

Is the resurrection of Jesus literal, and if it is, how do you know?

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2015, 08:48 AM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Whilst I'm glad there are many Christians who don't take the Bible literally, a. there are still many, especially in this country, who do and b. I've yet to hear any kind of a real explanation as to how we should determine what parts of the Bible are literal and what parts are not. It seems to me a rather convenient card that is pulled whenever any of the countless absurd parts of the Bible are being discussed--"don't take it literally!!"

Is the resurrection of Jesus literal, and if it is, how do you know?

Honestly, each person is different, as was mentioned before, in how they interpret the Bible. It speaks to them in different ways. What parts each person takes literally or as an allegorical tool will differ. Some people look at entire books and question their veracity (I often equate Revelation to the psilocybin induced rantings of a hermit). Each person's relationship with God, and therefore the Word which is the Bible (and Jesus, but that just complicates things) is going to be different. There are how many denominations out there? And then the millions of people within all of Christendom, most don't fit neatly into the little boxes that exist within those denominations or the non-denominational churches and their teachings. The faith is about your relationship. It's not about the guidelines handed down by church elders or the hierarchy. It's not about what you are taught in Sunday school, or the sermon your pastor preaches. It's about you and God. Nothing more, nothing less. The liturgy is just a way of celebrating the relationship, or at least that is my opinion of it.

And through faith we believe the resurrection of Jesus is literal. For it is through his resurrection that we receive God's grace.

Edit: I am aware that I got a little heavy handed on the religiosity there, which is a bit uncommon for me. You must understand that while I have always followed the teachings of Jesus because, well, whatever your faith he had a lot of good shit to say, I have, as of late, been doing a bit more soul searching and discovering my personal faith a bit more. I don't plan on getting preachy often because the modern form of evangelism bugs me, but I may end up trying to start discussions that may seem out of the norm for me.

[djs7685]

I just find it absurd that it's commonly accepted for people to pick and choose which parts of the book we're allowed to take literally, and make arguments based off of their own interpretations which essentially allow them to make the rules as they go.

Meh, it's tough to understand why people go to such lengths to show how "faithful" they are. Instead of just admitting that they disagree with something in the book, they have to make the claim that certain parts aren't to be taken seriously. I know some good Christians and I know some that remind me of guys on here that seem to be Christians simply to fit in with the rest of their superiority complex.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 08:47 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Like I said, accept it or not, it's up to you.

Why would I "accept" it when the verses I highlighted show a contradiction?

Quote:If you really want to know any answer to any question about the Bible or Christianity, your best bet is to call up you local Baptist church and talk to a pastor.

Why would I need a pastor's spin when the verse wasn't at all difficult to comprehend?

Quote:A football message board isn't the place to seek answers to questions you may have. While there can be discussion and debate on different subjects on this message board, there is no way possible to be able to have a meaningful and in depth discussion here.

So are you saying the people who post to this subsection are intellectually incapable of answering what appears to be a pretty simple question?  They aren't capable of having "in-depth" discussions regarding politics and religion?  

Quote: I suspect that most here asking questions, starting threads and tossing out ridicule don't really want answers, they just want to make fun and troll.

I'm sincerely wanting an answer.  The question given the contrading verses seems like a legitimate one to ask.  

Quote:No one here will change another's mind. This subsection is nothing more than a giant troll. While it can be fun at times, it always turns into name calling, hyperbole, ridicule and disdain for each other. Seriously, just read the post two above yours to see what I mean.

I haven't called anyone a name.  I thought I asked a thoughtful legitimate question that it seems some would just rather not ponder.  

I wonder why?  

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 08:42 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've always found it interesting how literal people take the Bible in their efforts to denigrate Christians, and in particular Biblical literalists/fundamentalists.

I think it has less to do with "denigrating" Christians and more to do with pointing out how flawed and contradictory the book is.  

But that's just me.  

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2015, 09:25 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I just find it absurd that it's commonly accepted for people to pick and choose which parts of the book we're allowed to take literally, and make arguments based off of their own interpretations which essentially allow them to make the rules as they go.

Meh, it's tough to understand why people go to such lengths to show how "faithful" they are. Instead of just admitting that they disagree with something in the book, they have to make the claim that certain parts aren't to be taken seriously. I know some good Christians and I know some that remind me of guys on here that seem to be Christians simply to fit in with the rest of their superiority complex.

Quite frankly, I disagree with anyone that attempts to use the Bible to judge others in any way, which is really what many people do when they pick and choose (outside of YEC or other such things). Point blank, we are all sinners. Through God's grace via the death and resurrection of Jesus we are forgiven of our sins because with God, all things are possible. The rest, everything else, is nit picking. It is disagreement over some of the silliest things. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Pretty simple. The other details I wouldn't say can be dismissed, but they aren't what's important about the faith.

The OT is often relied on heavily by some, or it is dismissed by others. The reason I see for keeping the OT around is not because it is something we should be looking at for laws or to understand the world, but to understand where Jesus came from. The society, the history, who he and his people were. Without the OT there is no NT. You need to OT to understand the NT because of the references made and the culture that exists there (and for Psalms, that's some beautiful stuff in some of those).

Trying to focus on the law of the OT and all of those details is just going to result in not having a good time.

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-16-2015, 08:47 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Like I said, accept it or not, it's up to you.

If you really want to know any answer to any question about the Bible or Christianity, your best bet is to call up you local Baptist church and talk to a pastor. A football message board isn't the place to seek answers to questions you may have. While there can be discussion and debate on different subjects on this message board, there is no way possible to be able to have a meaningful and in depth discussion here. I suspect that most here asking questions, starting threads and tossing out ridicule don't really want answers, they just want to make fun and troll.

No one here will change another's mind. This subsection is nothing more than a giant troll. While it can be fun at times, it always turns into name calling, hyperbole, ridicule and disdain for each other. Seriously, just read the post two above yours to see what I mean.

As somebody raised Baptist, I have spoken to many Baptist pastors throughout my life. I found that literally all of their "explanations" were either begging the question or subtle warnings to stop thinking and start accepting.

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2015, 09:52 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I think it has less to do with "denigrating" Christians and more to do with pointing out how flawed and contradictory the book is.  

But that's just me.  

Flaws are inherent when man is involved. Contradictory is dependent upon how you are looking at it. People will see what they choose to see, for good or bad. It is the same for every religion and their texts. The fact that there is an effort to overgeneralize whenever these discussions come up, on every side of the debate, shows how little effort is actually being put into engaging in civil discourse about the topic. Thus the commentary about denigration.

[Rotobeast]

(10-16-2015, 09:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Quite frankly, I disagree with anyone that attempts to use the Bible to judge others in any way, which is really what many people do when they pick and choose (outside of YEC or other such things). Point blank, we are all sinners. Through God's grace via the death and resurrection of Jesus we are forgiven of our sins because with God, all things are possible. The rest, everything else, is nit picking. It is disagreement over some of the silliest things. Love God, love your neighbor as yourself. Pretty simple. The other details I wouldn't say can be dismissed, but they aren't what's important about the faith.

The OT is often relied on heavily by some, or it is dismissed by others. The reason I see for keeping the OT around is not because it is something we should be looking at for laws or to understand the world, but to understand where Jesus came from. The society, the history, who he and his people were. Without the OT there is no NT. You need to OT to understand the NT because of the references made and the culture that exists there (and for Psalms, that's some beautiful stuff in some of those).

Trying to focus on the law of the OT and all of those details is just going to result in not having a good time.

*swish*

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 10:03 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Flaws are inherent when man is involved. 

I agree.  However many Christians believe they are reading the "inerrant word of God" when reading the Bible.  

Quote:Contradictory is dependent upon how you are looking at it.

You mean figuratively or literally?  Who decides what gets taken literally and what doesn't?  

Quote:People will see what they choose to see, for good or bad.

That appears to be rather evident.  

Quote:It is the same for every religion and their texts. The fact that there is an effort to overgeneralize whenever these discussions come up, on every side of the debate, shows how little effort is actually being put into engaging in civil discourse about the topic. Thus the commentary about denigration.

I didn't "overgeneralize".  I took a direct quote supposedly from God himself.  And it seems contradictory to the notion of "free will".  It was explained that he only took action because of the "arrogance" that man would even think that he could be like god and yet, that's precisely what enticed Eve to eat the apple.    

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 10:01 AM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: As somebody raised Baptist, I have spoken to many Baptist pastors throughout my life. I found that literally all of their "explanations" were either begging the question or subtle warnings to stop thinking and start accepting.

That's pretty much why I left the religion.  They would prefer if you didn't ask a lot of questions.  

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2015, 10:14 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I agree.  However many Christians believe they are reading the "inerrant word of God" when reading the Bible.  

True enough.

(10-16-2015, 10:14 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: You mean figuratively or literally?  Who decides what gets taken literally and what doesn't?  

As I've said, one's faith and personal relationship with God will guide them in how they read the Bible and what they gain from it.

(10-16-2015, 10:14 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I didn't "overgeneralize".  I took a direct quote supposedly from God himself.  And it seems contradictory to the notion of "free will".  It was explained that he only took action because of the "arrogance" that man would even think that he could be like god and yet, that's precisely what enticed Eve to eat the apple.    

I didn't say you specifically did, just that this is something that happens a lot in these discussions. As for your particular argument, that wasn't what I was focusing on. As my commentary in regards tot he OT points out, those types of discussions aren't ones I delve into. If you bog yourself down in those details you lose focus of what the faith is really all about, and you're gonna have a bad time.

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2015, 10:01 AM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: As somebody raised Baptist, I have spoken to many Baptist pastors throughout my life. I found that literally all of their "explanations" were either begging the question or subtle warnings to stop thinking and start accepting.

(10-16-2015, 10:16 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: That's pretty much why I left the religion.  They would prefer if you didn't ask a lot of questions.  

I wish you all could have interacted with some of the people I have with regards to all of this. Our pastors encourage these questions. The members do as well. We have an adult Sunday school class that is a blast with the discussions of scripture. It is lead by the VP of Student Affairs here at my university. It has a wide range of folks, conservative to liberal (including one former nun who is probably the most liberal in the group) that love to question things and get into these debates.

There is a place for questioning these things, for debate and intellectualism in the faith. But poor experiences turn people away so they will never find that out.