It's insanity! The war on Christianity......

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 10:26 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wish you all could have interacted with some of the people I have with regards to all of this. Our pastors encourage these questions. The members do as well. We have an adult Sunday school class that is a blast with the discussions of scripture. It is lead by the VP of Student Affairs here at my university. It has a wide range of folks, conservative to liberal (including one former nun who is probably the most liberal in the group) that love to question things and get into these debates.

There is a place for questioning these things, for debate and intellectualism in the faith. But poor experiences turn people away so they will never find that out.

I would love for you to pose my question to them.  I'll await a response...

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2015, 10:36 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I would love for you to pose my question to them.  I'll await a response...

If I drag myself out of my apartment early enough to make it for the class, I will. It is a rarity for it to happen, though. If I get a chance, and remember to do so, I may just ask Dr. Warner for his take.

[XenoMorph]

(10-16-2015, 10:26 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I wish you all could have interacted with some of the people I have with regards to all of this. Our pastors encourage these questions. The members do as well. We have an adult Sunday school class that is a blast with the discussions of scripture. It is lead by the VP of Student Affairs here at my university. It has a wide range of folks, conservative to liberal (including one former nun who is probably the most liberal in the group) that love to question things and get into these debates.

There is a place for questioning these things, for debate and intellectualism in the faith. But poor experiences turn people away so they will never find that out.

i have found almost everyone i have tried to have a serious conversation with on the subject of their faith. either ends up in them using the same cookie cutter answers or trying to convert me. or completely disregaurding my thoughts or opinions as possible cause its not in some old book. PRAISE THE SUN

[Belsnickel]

(10-16-2015, 10:58 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: i have found almost everyone i have tried to have a serious conversation with on the subject of their faith. either ends up in them using the same cookie cutter answers or trying to convert me. or completely disregaurding my thoughts or opinions as possible cause its not in some old book. PRAISE THE SUN

Yeah, I've run into that in places. This is why for a very long time I resisted any sort of organized religion. I believed in Jesus and the resurrection, I had faith, but I didn't have a home in any religion. When I found the congregation I go to now, it was revelatory. I say found, I have been living next door to them for 6 years and finally decided to try them out.

But yeah, this is why when I read more into the church, read about the ELCA, and talked to some of the members I knew from here on campus, I decided this would be a good fit. We have people who admit they are unsure of the whole Jesus thing. Admit as much to the pastor, even. But they still feel welcomed and want to join us in fellowship. The first word in ELCA is Evangelical, but it definitely is not evangelical in the way we think of it today.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 10:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: If I drag myself out of my apartment early enough to make it for the class, I will. It is a rarity for it to happen, though. If I get a chance, and remember to do so, I may just ask Dr. Warner for his take.

Thanks.

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2015, 07:32 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: This seems to fly in the face of "free will".  We are told he didn't interfere with Adam and Eve because of "free will", yet ironically he interjects himself in a futile and harmless attempt by men to build a skyscraper that stretches to the heavens.

The story seems bizarre because an all knowing God would already know the limits of man and if " free will" truly existed he would not have interfered.  Otherwise, it seems man is only "free" to do the "will" of God.

Oh, you're quoting one of the newer translations and I appreciate that you did that because it illustrates how meaning can be lost in translation. The same words you bolded and made big (impressive by the way) state this in the King James version:

Quote:And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Rough translation: They'll think they can do anything.

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2015, 09:03 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Honestly, each person is different, as was mentioned before, in how they interpret the Bible. It speaks to them in different ways. What parts each person takes literally or as an allegorical tool will differ.

This is it in a nut shell and I have mentioned it numerous times in the past. one who is willing to accept the word and find inspiration in them will most definately infer something differently than one who is will to reject the word and find inconsistancies in them.

There are those that completely dismiss the Old testiment all together because it was written before Salvation and under a "different set of rules", there are those that dismiss the New Testiment all together and consider Jesus nothing more than one of many profits. I fall in the category of accepting the New Testiment and looking to the Old Testiment for validation.

Folks fall into one of 4 categories (I know folks around here think they cannot be categorized) and they are:

Gnostic Thiest: You believe there is a God and you know who/what he is
Agnostic Theist:You believe there is a God and you are not sure who/what he is
Gnostic Athiest: You believe there is no God and you know this to be true
Agnostic Atheist: You believe there is no God, but you are not sure 

[GMDino]

Quote:Quote:
And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

(10-16-2015, 12:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Oh, you're quoting one of the newer translations and I appreciate that you did that because it illustrates how meaning can be lost in translation. The same words you bolded and made big (impressive by the way) state this in the King James version:

Rough translation: They'll think they can do anything.

Wouldn't the part I bolded lean more toward they CAN do anything the imagine? Not just they THINK they can do anything?

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2015, 12:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: Wouldn't the part I bolded lean more toward they CAN do anything the imagine?  Not just they THINK they can do anything?

To me it means there is no limit on what they imagine they can do and will attempt to do. Replace CAN with WILL in your interpretation and we are very close.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 12:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: Wouldn't the part I bolded lean more toward they CAN do anything the imagine?  Not just they THINK they can do anything?

Yeah.  I don't see any discernable difference between the two translations:  God seemed to be concerned that men united under one language could accomplish anything (nothing will be restrained from them).  It wasn't so much men THINKING they could accomplish anything that concerned him.

Men don't even have the "free will" of their thoughts?  

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 12:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: To me it means there is no limit on what they imagine they can do and will attempt to do. Replace CAN with WILL in your interpretation and we are very close.

Quote:And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have (imagined/attempted)to do.

Doesn't really change a thing.  

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2015, 12:23 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Yeah.  I don't see any discernable difference between the two translations:  God seemed to be concerned that men united under one language could accomplish anything (nothing will be restrained from them).  It wasn't so much men THINKING they could accomplish anything that concerned him.

Men don't even have the "free will" of their thoughts?  

If you think God was afraid of what man could actually accomplish then we disagree on the interpretation of the verse. In this time man was considering himself to be more and more like God. He said they are starting to look to each other instead of me (sound familiar) and think they can build a tower to heaven and "make a name for themselves". His concern was what will they think they can do next. He confused their language and spread them across the land so that they would have to look to him instead of each other; because they could not communicate with each other.

There is a lesson in that verse of scripture if you are motivated to look for or there are inconsistencies in that scripture if you are motivated to look for it. 

[GMDino]

(10-16-2015, 12:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you think God was afraid of what man could actually accomplish then we disagree on the interpretation of the verse. In this time man was considering himself to be more and more like God. He said they are starting to look to each other instead of me (sound familiar) and think they can build a tower to heaven and "make a name for themselves". His concern was what will they think they can do next. He confused their language and spread them across the land so that they would have to look to him instead of each other; because they could not communicate with each other.

There is a lesson in that verse of scripture if you are motivated to look for or there are inconsistencies in that scripture if you are motivated to look for it. 

I don't think "afraid" is right word, at least from my perspective.  I just wonder why working together to reach any goal was a concern at all.  Unless that goal was evil?

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 12:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you think God was afraid of what man could actually accomplish then we disagree on the interpretation of the verse. In this time man was considering himself to be more and more like God. He said they are starting to look to each other instead of me (sound familiar) and think they can build a tower to heaven and "make a name for themselves". His concern was what will they think they can do next. He confused their language and spread them across the land so that they would have to look to him instead of each other; because they could not communicate with each other.

There is a lesson in that verse of scripture if you are motivated to look for or there are inconsistencies in that scripture if you are motivated to look for it. 

It seems obvious to me that the men would have failed miserably in their task.  Therefore, the lesson could have been learned without any interference from God whatsoever.

Given modern technological advancements men have done much more impressive things than fail to build a skyscraper; we have landed people on the moon for instance.   We have rovers on Mars.

Is he not as worried about us looking elsewhere for guidance as he was then?

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 12:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: I don't think "afraid" is right word, at least from my perspective.  I just wonder why working together to reach any goal was a concern at all.  Unless that goal was evil?

It seems that based on this story, you could blame God for all the cultural and language barriers that have driven mankind to war over the centuries.  

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2015, 12:45 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: It seems obvious to me that the men would have failed miserably in their task.  Therefore, the lesson could have been learned without any interference from God whatsoever.

Given modern technological advancements men have done much more impressive things than fail to build a skyscraper; we have landed people on the moon for instance.   We have rovers on Mars.

Is he not as worried about us looking elsewhere for guidance as he was then?

Sure he is; however, you must realize it has been less than a blink of an eye to the Lord since we invented the automobile.

If anyone has told that the Christian God is not vain; they have told you wrong IMO.

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2015, 12:43 PM)GMDino Wrote: I don't think "afraid" is right word, at least from my perspective.  I just wonder why working together to reach any goal was a concern at all.  Unless that goal was evil?

I simply used afraid because WDW stated God feared what man could do. I merely suggested he feared what man thought they could do.

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 12:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sure he is; however, you must realize it has been less than a blink of an eye to the Lord since we invented the automobile.

If anyone has told that the Christian God is not vain; they have told you wrong IMO.

Indeed, it would be "less than a blink of an eye", which makes me wonder why he would even bother interfering knowing that in less than a "blink of an eye" man would be doing even more impressive things like exploring other planets let alone building skyscrapers.   

[WhoDeyWho]

(10-16-2015, 12:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I simply used afraid because WDW stated God feared what man could do. I merely suggested he feared what man thought they could do.

Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful god "fear" anything.  

[*bfine32*]

(10-16-2015, 01:11 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Why would an all-knowing, all-powerful god "fear" anything.  

Because he fears what his child may think/do. God did not create robots.

There are a number of Theodicies you can research to research some "answers" that have been posed by you and countless others. I tend to put a lot of stock in the Irenaean Thodicy. It states man is man created in an imperfect state, but in God's image. Then man either moves toward or away God's likeness by how he reacts (is developed) to tribulation. If he made everything perfect for everyone, man would not develope.