Ivana's grave

[hollodero]

(07-31-2022, 04:29 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: once you dont sin no more the feel free to cast your stones friend. until then we are all in the same boat. fallen unworthy creatures. me and you can both pass judgments but only one has the true final judgement. 

God loves trump just as much as he does you and me, cause we all the same children in his eyes. you can try to make yourself superior to trump in your own mind but thats your ego making you look down your nose at others. trump makes mistakes. you make mistakes. why are you superior. cause you justify your mistakes to you and say i must be better than trump. 

sin is sin buddy. we are all fallen. just be thanfull God is willing to forgive us. one more thing. of all the things you acuse trump of, how many has he actually been found guilty of. just cause people say stuff dont mean its a fact. you keep saying what trump intended like your inside his head. your just making it what you want based on what you been told. only trump knows for sure what he was thinking. 

OK friend. You are aware that this line of thinking could be used to defend every terrible person ever. From Charles Manson to Mussolini or Putin or Bin Laden or yeah even Hitler, why not, every one. You might have done something bad too, maybe kicked a puppy as a child, so how are you better than those folks? Also it's up to God and not to a human being to pass judgment anyway. Don't ever feel superior, so open the prison gates and set all of our boat mates free! No fellow sinner should have ever passed any form of judgment about them in the first place.

What a horrible society your philosophy would create.

[Leon]

(07-31-2022, 04:40 PM)hollodero Wrote: OK friend. You are aware that this line of thinking could be used to defend every terrible person ever. From Charles Manson to Mussolini or Putin or Bin Laden or yeah even Hitler, why not, every one. You might have done something bad too, maybe kicked a puppy as a child, so how are you better than those folks? Also it's up to God and not to a human being to pass judgment anyway. Don't ever feel superior, so open the prison gates and set all of our boat mates free! No fellow sinner should have ever passed any form of judgment about them in the first place.

What a horrible society your philosophy would create.

your not getting what im saying. your focusing pure earthly judgment. ok. by just that we can sit here judging each other and say this person is better or wrse than other folks cause there sins greater or whatever. we can condem each other and out in jail if the sin is big enough. thats all fine and good cause we have to make it that way cause we are broken and we want to break each other so there has to be some wat of controling it. 

but the real fact is were sinners judging sinners. guilty folks judging guilty folks cause there more guilty. but were all guilty in the ultimate judgment. good thing is the ulimate judge has mercy on us if we repent. you can think trump is a terrible person by earthly means. i can think pelosi is the same. but only God knows what they really are in there hearts and only he can truly judge them.

[*Nately120*]

Is every thread going to turn into a generic debate about Christianity now?

[Leon]

(07-31-2022, 05:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Is every thread going to turn into a generic debate about Christianity now?

no matter what any topic is about in here it looks like it always end up with the same few folks going round in the same circles doin the same dance in evrey thread. just saying hey im smarter then you. no im smarter than you.

heaven help us that a little bit different idea comes round sometimes. just let us keep doing our same old dance in every thread cause its all we know like hamsters on a wheel.

funny you aint got not problem bashing trump in almost every thread.no outrage for that. wonder why friend.

[*Nately120*]

(07-31-2022, 06:18 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: heaven help us that a little bit different idea comes round sometimes.

What is different about your idea?

[Leon]

(07-31-2022, 06:30 PM)Nately120 Wrote: What is different about your idea?

i guess it doesnt fit the constant trump hate in every thread. guess there aint no room for God in a place called politics and RELIGION. i'll let yoy get back to your wheel trashing trump. this section might need changed to trump bashing 24-7.

[*Nately120*]

(07-31-2022, 06:37 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote:  i'll let yoy get back to your wheel trasking trump.

Somehow I don't think you're going to just let us do this. 

[hollodero]

(07-31-2022, 05:54 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: but the real fact is were sinners judging sinners. guilty folks judging guilty folks cause there more guilty.

Yup, I'm fine with that. We're also a society that agreed on a certain set of rules so we can live together and all pursue happiness in life. Legal rules and moral rules. And we judge those that do break these rules, either by throwing them in jail for breaking the law or for considering them shitty people for breaking moral rules, like do not lie to the public about an election or don't try to send violent people to get your wish. And of course there's a scale, not every non-compliance with earthly rules, and possibly even eternal holy rules I do not believe in, is equally bad. Denying that scale is a neat trick to ignore the shittyness of a person you support, but of course you won't persuade anyone that you can't pass judgment over anyone under any circumstances unless you lived a flawless life, which no one on earth does since everyone's a sinner. Trump could murder people and this mindset could explain it away. His example, not mine. You laid it out in not even a bad manner, that much I will give you. Sophisticated.

You (well, your internet persona) saying the only valid judgment comes from God and we mortals have no right to judge is indeed used as a cop out so one doesn't have to face Trump's unique set of shittyness. Rather, it would be, of course. You're such a picture perfect example of what a left leaning person would consider a Christian fundamentalist and Trump supporter to be like that there's no way you're not just exactly that, a parodist. I point that out not to make an accusation (applying your own fake thoughts, we're all imposters that pretend to be someone we're not - I for sure am - so no one can accuse anyone of anything in that regard either), but not to look like an idiot talking to someone who's just making fun of everyone here.

[hollodero]

(07-31-2022, 05:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Is every thread going to turn into a generic debate about Christianity now?

Not every thread. There's always the ignore option and imho it should be chosen when the original topic is worth being debated over in length. This thread, however, is imho very well suited to divert. The Tiger Blood internet creation, at least to me, is more interesting to talk to than the whole issue of Ivana Trump's grave. He might be fake (I'm convinced he is, but most seem to disagree), but he's not stupid (and again I'm convinced, but most possibly would disagree). To an extent, I consider him to be fun.

[Leon]

(07-31-2022, 06:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: Yup, I'm fine with that. We're also a society that agreed on a certain set of rules so we can live together and all pursue happiness in life. Legal rules and moral rules. And we judge those that do break these rules, either by throwing them in jail for breaking the law or for considering them shitty people for breaking moral rules, like do not lie to the public about an election or don't try to send violent people to get your wish. And of course there's a scale, not every non-compliance with earthly rules, and possibly even eternal holy rules I do not believe in, is equally bad. Denying that scale is a neat trick to ignore the shittyness of a person you support, but of course you won't persuade anyone that you can't pass judgment over anyone under any circumstances unless you lived a flawless life, which no one on earth does since everyone's a sinner. Trump could murder people and this mindset could explain it away. His example, not mine. You laid it out in not even a bad manner, that much I will give you. Sophisticated.

You (well, your internet persona) saying the only valid judgment comes from God and we mortals have no right to judge is indeed used as a cop out so one doesn't have to face Trump's unique set of shittyness. Rather, it would be, of course. You're such a picture perfect example of what a left leaning person would consider a Christian fundamentalist and Trump supporter to be like that there's no way you're not just exactly that, a parodist. I point that out not to make an accusation (applying your own fake thoughts, we're all imposters that pretend to be someone we're not - I for sure am - so no one can accuse anyone of anything in that regard either), but not to look like an idiot talking to someone who's just making fun of everyone here.

your just like the luciidis and belnickels guys. talking fancy and using fancy words dont just make you right. i aint dumb. i know what you think of me and mine. folks like me are used to folks like you looking down at us. its fine. just remeber theres a big difference between thinking you know eveything and having real life wisdom. you can keep telling me whats so. but when i have a handfull of earth in my hand and see the wind moving the trees, i know whats real and whats really important. 

[*Nately120*]

(07-31-2022, 06:55 PM)hollodero Wrote: Not every thread. There's always the ignore option and imho it should be chosen when the original topic is worth being debated over in length. This thread, however, is imho very well suited to divert. The Tiger Blood internet creation, at least to me, is more interesting to talk to than the whole issue of Ivana Trump's grave. He might be fake (I'm convinced he is, but most seem to disagree), but he's not stupid (and again I'm convinced, but most possibly would disagree). To an extent, I consider him to be fun.

Ok, well his thread derailing seems predictable and generic to me, but different strokes for different folks and all that.  I already spent an hour in a church today and I didn't ask anyone to stop talking about Jesus and to talk about Trump, so I guess I don't see why it makes more sense to stop talking about the rather novel concept of a former president burying his first wife on a golf course he owns to get into yet another "judge not lest ye be judged" debate.

This isn't about right or wrong or stupid or smart, it's about recognizing that any form of criticism or debate can be turned into a "Aren't we all sinners?" back and forth that never goes anywhere.  

(07-31-2022, 06:57 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: your just like the luciidis and belnickels guys. talking fancy and using fancy words dont just make you right. i aint dumb. i know what you think of me and mine. folks like me are used to folks like you looking down at us. its fine. just remeber theres a big difference between thinking you know eveything and having real life wisdom. you can keep telling me whats so. but when i have a handfull of earth in my hand and see the wind moving the trees, i know whats real and whats really important. 

I'm pretty sure we just want to have a cynical laugh at the absurdity of the situation that is the topic of this thread.  Not everything has to be a debate about our immortal souls.

[hollodero]

(07-31-2022, 06:57 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: your just like the luciidis and belnickels guys.

Thanks, I take this as a a compliment.

(07-31-2022, 06:57 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: talking fancy and using fancy words dont just make you right.

lol

(07-31-2022, 06:57 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: i aind dumb.

I know that.

(07-31-2022, 06:57 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: i know what you think of me and mine. folks like me are used to folks like you looking down at us. its fine. just remeber theres a big difference between thinking you know eveything and having real life wisdom.

I don't know squat. And I don't look down on you, and more importantly, I don't look down on any real Trump supporter. But I think they have a flawed persepective on many things, which is quite different from looking down on anyone. Explaining why I think the perspective is flawed is not a sign of disrespect, I tend to believe the contrary. I respect a person by telling that person directly and with unminced words what I think about his or her perspective instead of keeping silent and leaving said person in a safe space of sorts - that imho would be the real arrogance. They can choose to think about what I say or don't. I can't think of a better reason for being on an internet board than giving people such an option with the flawed, incomplete and in a thousand ways faulty opinions I can share, or them giving me alternate perspectives I can think about.

[hollodero]

(07-31-2022, 06:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ok, well his thread derailing seems predictable and generic to me, but different strokes for different folks and all that.  I already spent an hour in a church today and I didn't ask anyone to stop talking about Jesus and to talk about Trump, so I guess I don't see why it makes more sense to stop talking about the rather novel concept of a former president burying his first wife on a golf course he owns to get into yet another "judge not lest ye be judged" debate.

Yeah, different strokes for sure. I stated my opinion about the initial topic and I deem it rather insignificant, but sure I played my part in this thread's derailment afterwards based on this assertion. Maybe there is more to say to it and maybe I misbehaved. If so, sorry about that and back to Ivana's grave, I will stop engaging in debating anything else here. Only thing I'd say, quite some threads about other things turned to Trump (I'm guilty for that as well) and I don't think turning to something else in a Trump thread (it still also was about Trump for me) is significantly worse.

(07-31-2022, 06:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This isn't about right or wrong or stupid or smart, it's about recognizing that any form of criticism or debate can be turned into a "Aren't we all sinners?" back and forth that never goes anywhere.  

That's kind of my point too. But as I said, back to Ivana's grave and all the totally not predictable takes people will have on that.

[Leon]

(07-31-2022, 07:09 PM)hollodero Wrote: Thanks, I take this as a a compliment.



lol



I know that.



I don't know squat. And I don't look down on you, and more importantly, I don't look down on any real Trump supporter. But I think they have a flawed persepective on many things, which is quite different from looking down on anyone. Explaining why I think the perspective is flawed is not a sign of disrespect, I tend to believe the contrary. I respect a person by telling that person directly and with unminced words what I think about his or her perspective instead of keeping silent and leaving said person in a safe space of sorts - that imho would be the real arrogance. They can choose to think about what I say or don't. I can't think of a better reason for being on an internet board than giving people such an option with the flawed, incomplete and in a thousand ways faulty opinions I can share, or them giving me alternate perspectives I can think about.

see this is bull. you cant say you respect and then run around saying im a "fake person". you basicaly calling me a liar saying i dont believe what i believe. i will tell you this right now. i say what i think. i dont pull no punches and i dont say im something im not. you have called me a fake person a few times now and im getting tired of it. you got a problem with my thinking or my way of living then fine. lets hash it out. but dont call me a fake person again. thats a slap to a mans face and aint no man gonna keep standing for it. i like talking on this site and sharing my ideas and even rasslin with others ideas but i aint gonna stand for telling me im not being real and honest. ive even went as far to not strike back when folks here keep calling me names and personal attacking me but im sick of it. folks make fun of the way i write the way i talk, the way i talk about God, the way i think about politics and everthing else and all the while they act like there better than me when there acting like that. its just childish acting and then saying there the smart ones. then the one guy whos always trashing trump in every thread all dang day has the nerve to say there to much talk about God. are you kidding me. seems like folks here just love there hatred.

[*Nately120*]

(07-31-2022, 07:23 PM)hollodero Wrote: That's kind of my point too. But as I said, back to Ivana's grave and all the totally not predictable takes people will have on that.

We have a whole thread about religion...that is to say, about god, that is to say about American Christianity that has been rubber banded to the republican party.  At least the takes on Trump in this thread are somewhat new given the interestingly odd circumstances of the situation yet it still boiling down to Trump doing something less than tasteful for the sake of money.

Nothing that has been mentioned here in the religious form has gone beyond the shame on you style of generic judgment for being judgmental.  We heard the same thing in the Roe v Wade thread and the Does God Exist thread (fittingly, at least) and I think we had a dose of that in the 1/6 thread...it's omnipresent. 

This is the fatiguing aspect of religion being injected into politics...you can't just rag on a republican without someone going all religious on you...unless when people say Biden sucks or that he's a brain-damaged puppet this same guy tells us to stop judging him too.  That'd still be annoying, but at least it would be symmetrical.

Ok, rant mode off for now I hope.  I'm ashamed how much time and energy I put into this place.  I need to go to confession for that, assuming right-wing Christians even believe in that.  Might just be a catholic thing. 



EDIT - Well, seems like you've started a fight with Mr. No Judge, so I'll leave you to it.

[hollodero]

(07-31-2022, 07:38 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: dont call me a fake person again

Fair enough, I will not say it again.

In my 'defense' if you will, I always addressed your points on their merits, as if I did not think what I still think; also I tried to make clear I don't think I'm better than you or anyone. I also promised to stop derailing this thread, so I won't expand. 

[GMDino]

(07-31-2022, 05:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Is every thread going to turn into a generic debate about Christianity now?

Seems that way.

I do appreciate that is being used to defend one side of the aisle and the worst people though.  

[hollodero]

(07-31-2022, 07:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This is the fatiguing aspect of religion being injected into politics...you can't just rag on a republican without someone going all religious on you...unless when people say Biden sucks or that he's a brain-damaged puppet this same guy tells us to stop judging him too.  That'd still be annoying, but at least it would be symmetrical.

This is turning into my personal apology tour somehow... so in my defense, there are circumstances at play I just now promised not to bring up again, a metalevel of sorts that makes this an atypical instance. But yeah, I am guilty of abetting this topic and I get why this might be just as annoying to you as these let's slam Trump over anything we can muster threads are starting to be for me. But you're right, I derailed the thread and I'm sorry for that misbehaviour.

(07-31-2022, 07:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: EDIT - Well, seems like you've started a fight with Mr. No Judge, so I'll leave you to it.

Oh no, there won't be a fight.

[*Nately120*]

(07-31-2022, 08:01 PM)hollodero Wrote: This is turning into my personal apology tour somehow... so in my defense, there are circumstances at play I just now promised not to bring up again, a metalevel of sorts that makes this an atypical instance. But yeah, I am guilty of abetting this topic and I get why this might be just as annoying to you as these let's slam Trump over anything we can muster threads are starting to be for me. But you're right, I derailed the thread and I'm sorry for that misbehaviour.

There is no need to apologize, but while I'll admit the "bash Trump" stuff can be predictable, we're talking about him burying his first wife on one of his golf courses.  We may be giving him the usual "thumbs down" but you have to admit we're doing it for a new and bizarre reason on this one, at least.

Just imagine if a few months ago someone would have said "I bet Trump buries Ivana on one of his golf courses so he can save on property taxes."  I assume that wouldn't have been believed as "business as usual."

Biden is old and dopey and Trump is a money-grubbing crook....we can agree on this BUT when they show their characteristics in bizarre new ways we should at least be able to critique anew.  Just my 2 shekels. 

[hollodero]

(07-31-2022, 08:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: There is no need to apologize, but while I'll admit the "bash Trump" stuff can be predictable, we're talking about him burying his first wife on one of his golf courses.  We may be giving him the usual "thumbs down" but you have to admit we're doing it for a new and bizarre reason on this one, at least.

Just imagine if a few months ago someone would have said "I bet Trump buries Ivana on one of his golf courses so he can save on property taxes."  I assume that wouldn't have been believed as "business as usual."

Well, I feel I already addressed these points. For one, I wonder why people say "Trump buried his ex-wife there", as if Ivana was forced to choose this place or as if it wasn't up to her in the first place. I wouldn't know that it wasn't her decision, and so I also wouldn't know it was solely Donald Trump's decision.
Secondly, I don't know that this was tax evasion. Trump did not pay property taxes for this course in the first place, which might be the bigger issue actually. So why would he even need to pull these shenanigans for a property that already was tax-free. It seems to make no sense and there seems only speculation, not actual proof, about this in the first place.
And thirdly, it still appears petty to break the common rules of piety to go after Trump over this. As I repeatedly said, there are a million really horrific things this guy did, why go through everything with an all watchful eye to find even more and even tinier things to pile up. It's unnecessary.

As much as I despise the argument of "see, they drag his dead ex-wife into this, just like they mused about the number of ice cream scoops he gets, and the whole impeachments and Jan 6 hearings etc. are just another display of this ridiculousness". It does not help to feed this line with maybe somehow even legit examples. Ice cream scoops should never have been in the media, and imho neither should Ivana's grave or the eulogies her children gave at her funeral. There's a certain right to privacy in these matters.

(07-31-2022, 08:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Biden is old and dopey and Trump is a money-grubbing crook....we can agree on this BUT when they show their characteristics in bizarre new ways we should at least be able to critique anew.  Just my 2 shekels. 

Didn't say folks are not able/allowed to do so, that's of course not my place. I just think it'd be better not to in this instance.
But again, this perception should not have led to me so willingly derail the thread.