Juneteenth and the lack of black lives in US curricula

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 03:56 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Part of the conversation is the honest examination of other ways that people of color continue to be subjugated and controlled in forms that aren't physical slavery per se, but rather a psychological and systematic continuation of purposeful oppression that is still feels very inescapable, even with the social progression that has been slowly contoured by modernity. 

I fully understan the issues of racism today.  I know all about racial profiling and sentence disparities. But an overwhelming majority of black people in jail for dealing crack are actually guilty of dealing crack. The situation is not "inescapable" because no one is forcing them to sell crack.

Blacks commit a lot more crimes per capita than whites.  They can't blame white people for that.

Black culture does not support the concept of a nuclear family.  This causes extra financial burden of black society.  And, again, they can't blame white people for the fact that they keep having babies with multiple partners.  AIDS struck the black population much worse than whites because of the didain for birth control in the black society.  Again that is not caused by white people.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 03:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm not going to dig into all the research I have done on this for various classes or the lectures I have sat in on the topic. One of the best stops for some of this information, though, is The New Jim Crow. The book also contains a large amount of notes that can be mined for sources on this topic, as well. I know this because I availed myself of them for several research projects on the topic.

I have studied the issue also.

Racial profiling contributes to a higher arrestrate for minorities.

Sentence disparities cause minorities (especially blacks) to get longer sentences, and are even more extreme in death penalty cases (but luckily death penalty cases are pretty rare).

Minorities tend to have a higher poverty rate and poorer people commit more crimes.  So this also effects the crime rate for minorities.

But none of this changes the fact that police come in contact more wioth blacks because blacks commit more crimes.  And a higher percentage of black mpeople get convicted of crimes because a higher percentage of black people commit crimes.  And as long as people keep telling blacks that white people are to blame the problem will not get fixed.

In the 1930's white people looked at bank robbers as heroes because they though the banks were evil.  That was wrong.  today a large portion of the black community glamourizes the "thug life" and see criminals as heroes because they are told the system only punishes black people.  That is also wrong.

Claiming that punishing criminals is the same as chattel slavery is bullshit and that type of talk hurts blacks more than it helpes.  Plus it is a huge insult to innocent people who lived under chattel slavery.

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 04:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Claiming that punishing criminals is the same as chattel slavery is bullshit and that type of talk hurts blacks more than it helpes.  Plus it is a huge insult to innocent people who lived under chattel slavery.

I will just comment on this and leave it here. I'd like you to have that conversation with the scholars talking about this issue.

[Lucidus]

(06-22-2020, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I fully understan the issues of racism today.  I know all about racial profiling and sentence disparities. But an overwhelming majority of black people in jail for dealing crack are actually guilty of dealing crack. The situation is not "inescapable" because no one is forcing them to sell crack.

Blacks commit a lot more crimes per capita than whites.  They can't blame white people for that.

Black culture does not support the concept of a nuclear family.  This causes extra financial burden of black society.  And, again, they can't blame white people for the fact that they keep having babies with multiple partners.  AIDS struck the black population much worse than whites because of the didain for birth control in the black society.  Again that is not caused by white people.

That is an incredibly problematic comment in my estimation, with racist undertones, even if not intentional; labeling an entire culture with stereotypical generalizations. The concept of the "nuclear family" as it used to be is an increasingly dated idea as today's family constructs are comprised of many different variations and nontraditional models, and that is across the racial, sexual and ideological spectrum. The "modern family" simply doesn't come in cookie cutter molds anymore. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-22-2020, 04:29 PM)Lucidus Wrote: That is an incredibly problematic comment in my estimation, with racist undertones, even if not intentional; labeling an entire culture with stereotypical generalizations. The concept of the "nuclear family" as it used to be is an increasingly dated idea as today's family constructs are comprised of many different variations and nontraditional models, and that is across the racial, sexual and ideological spectrum. The "modern family" simply doesn't come in cookie cutter molds anymore.

Bang-on.

On Fred's side, I think he is asserting that typical, "Nuclear Families," are not as rampant or (statistically) proven, to commit crimes as much as people in non-Nuclear families.

That's what I get out of it.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 04:29 PM)Lucidus Wrote: That is an incredibly problematic comment in my estimation, with racist undertones, even if not intentional; labeling an entire culture with stereotypical generalizations. The concept of the "nuclear family" as it used to be is an increasingly dated idea as today's family constructs are comprised of many different variations and nontraditional models, and that is across the racial, sexual and ideological spectrum. The "modern family" simply doesn't come in cookie cutter molds anymore. 

Still does not change the fact that cultures that have a much higher percentage of two-parent households will prevail simply because they are using their resources more efficiently.

And there is not just a small difference.  Black mothers are close to THREE TIMES times more likely to have children by different fathers (59%) than white women (22%).  65% of black children live in a single parent household while only 24% of white kids do.

There are no "racist undertones" when speaking true facts.  But as long as people like you claim their is no problem blacks will continue to fall farther and farther behind the white and hispanic cultures which use their resources better.

Irresponsible use of birth control also leads to higher rates of sexually transmitted disease which pulls the culture down even more.  The Chlamydia rate among blacks is 600% higher than whites.  Gonorrhea is 770% higher.  The Syphilis rate is 470% higher.  Again, some of the difference can be attributed to higher rates of poverty and less access to health care, but, like the issues that effect incarceration rates, the biggest cause of the difference is irresponsible behavior.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 04:49 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Bang-on.

On Fred's side, I think he is asserting that typical, "Nuclear Families," are not as rampant or (statistically) proven, to commit crimes as much as people in non-Nuclear families.

That's what I get out of it.

I was maninly commenting on the financial advantages of having two parent households, but there are lots of other stats regarding the problems children are more likely to face coming from a single parent home.

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 04:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still does not change the fact that cultures that have a much higher percentage of two-parent households will prevail simply because they are using their resources more efficiently.

And there is not just a small difference.  Black mothers are close to THREE TIMES times more likely to have children by different fathers (59%) than white women (22%).  65% of black children live in a single parent household while only 24% of white kids do.

There are no "racist undertones" when speaking true facts.  But as long as people like you claim their is no problem blacks will continue to fall farther and farther behind the white and hispanic cultures which use their resources better.

Irresponsible use of birth control also leads to higher rates of sexually transmitted disease which pulls the culture down even more.  The Chlamydia rate among blacks is 600% higher than whites.  Gonorrhea is 770% higher.  The Syphilis rate is 470% higher.  Again, some of the difference can be attributed to higher rates of poverty and less access to health care, but, like the issues that effect incarceration rates, the biggest cause of the difference is irresponsible behavior.

I've seen some arguments that the targeting of the black community with mass incarceration is responsible for the absence of black father figures in the community. They cite the high percentage of black males with interaction with the criminal justice system. So is it a culture situation, or is it a result of systemic oppression?

[Lucidus]

(06-22-2020, 04:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still does not change the fact that cultures that have a much higher percentage of two-parent households will prevail simply because they are using their resources more efficiently.

And there is not just a small difference.  Black mothers are close to THREE TIMES times more likely to have children by different fathers (59%) than white women (22%).  65% of black children live in a single parent household while only 24% of white kids do.

There are no "racist undertones" when speaking true facts.  But as long as people like you claim their is no problem blacks will continue to fall farther and farther behind the white and hispanic cultures which use their resources better.

Irresponsible use of birth control also leads to higher rates of sexually transmitted disease which pulls the culture down even more.  The Chlamydia rate among blacks is 600% higher than whites.  Gonorrhea is 770% higher.  The Syphilis rate is 470% higher.  Again, some of the difference can be attributed to higher rates of poverty and less access to health care, but, like the issues that effect incarceration rates, the biggest cause of the difference is irresponsible behavior.

Whites are far more likely to abuse pain medication and methamphetamine. Does that mean the "entire white culture" is comprised of pain pill and meth addicts? Of course not. Is it a problem with some? Yes, but you can't label the whole white culture with that stigma. You also can't label the "black culture" as a whole with the issues of a certain percentage. The "facts" you cite address a segment of the culture. Within those segments, the examination becomes even more nuanced as to the "why" things are that way. To simply quote statistics and deem the conclusion automatic is disingenuous as it concerns these topics. There are a great number of factors at play with each of these situations that can adversely impact behavior, outcomes and consequences. It's not as simple as stating the numbers that can identify definitive causal lines.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-22-2020, 05:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've seen some arguments that the targeting of the black community with mass incarceration is responsible for the absence of black father figures in the community. They cite the high percentage of black males with interaction with the criminal justice system. So is it a culture situation, or is it a result of systemic oppression?

Perhaps a bit of both?

It's cyclical in nature.

[BmorePat87]

The fact that this conversation is now occurring is part of the reason why this needs to be taught in schools. Part of the problem is also treating black culture as a monolith, especially with regards to the most impoverished segments of black culture. For the sake of this discussion, though, that's what I will be referring to.

You can't ignore redlining and it's decades long legacy. White families are given access to loans to purchase homes and repair infrastructure in their neighborhoods while black families are not given access to it. We know homeownership is the biggest contributor to wealth and essential in generational wealth.

As more black families moved into the middle class, neighborhoods could legally deny them the right to purchase homes. In some cases, realtors engaged in blockbusting, where they sold to black families above market value and then convinced white families to move and sell for under market value because of the new black neighbors. As neighborhoods went from predominantly white to black, local governments pulled funding and businesses and services left. You can compare neighborhoods in the same county that were built by the same people for the same price and see how blockbusting has affected them. Home values soared in one area while they plummeted in the other. Plummeting home values also means underfunded schools.

Going back to redlining, decades of being unable to access federal loans caused home values for black neighborhoods to sink. Fast forward to urban renewal, and data shows that the majority of neighborhoods affected were in redlined areas and the vast majority of families were black. So the government seizes your home and gives you a "market value" for it, but that market value isn't enough to purchase a new home. Your family has now lost what meager contributor to wealth that they had.

This also coincides with deinstitutionalization, the Vietnam War, and the War on Drugs. I don't think we need to elaborate on those.

We can jump forward to the 90's, though, and compare maps of red lined neighborhoods to maps of gentrified neighborhoods. You're going to see a lot of overlap. If your family lost their home and had to rent, they're now seeing their rent skyrocket as property owners try to push them out to sell property off to developers.


and all of this goes back to socio-economic status. People are quick to use race as the only factor and ignore socio-economic disparity. There is some truth in the statement that black culture does not support the nuclear family, but not as it is being presented here. Black culture puts far more emphasis on community. Historically, we can look to how black American culture was created as a result of slavery ripping families apart in Africa, putting people together with others of different cultures, and ripping families apart in the US. Contemporarily, we can look at current issues. Data shows they are more likely to volunteer in their neighborhoods and give more of a percentage of their income to charity. They also are more likely to take a community or extended family approach to family. Does their culture inherently reject the traditional close family unit? Of course not. However, things like unplanned pregnancy, incarceration, and widowhood are tied to your economic status. When one community has had decades of policy that has disproportionately affected healthcare, wealth, and incarceration rates.

Again, this is why you cannot hide this part of history. This is why we can't suggest that all was well after the Civil Rights Act. This is why suggesting that black communities are holding themselves back, ignoring the fact that hundreds of years of slavery and subjugation absolutely have put the black community in a hole. Giving someone in an 80 foot hole a 20 foot ladder and blaming them for not being able to get out is the problem.

We also need to emphasize the triumphs in black history and culture. The strength and the resiliency in history is a crucial topic to teach. As an educator to a minority-majority student body whose curriculum does not do enough to emphasize non-mainstream/white history, it's a challenge finding the right balance with the limited time available.

[Belsnickel]

(06-22-2020, 05:20 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Perhaps a bit of both?

It's cyclical in nature.

True, it is cyclical. However, we have to think of the whole chicken and egg thing; which came first?

Maybe it's just me, but their ~250 years as chattel followed by an immediate attempt to find any excuse to incarcerate black men because they feared what would happen to the economy without free labor followed by successive efforts to continually oppress them and incarcerate black men tells me that the systemic oppression caused the culture, if we choose to call it that, to form. When fathers could be sold away or locked away at the drop of a hat for quite literally the entirety of African-American history, what should we expect to occur?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-22-2020, 08:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: True, it is cyclical. However, we have to think of the whole chicken and egg thing; which came first?

Maybe it's just me, but their ~250 years as chattel followed by an immediate attempt to find any excuse to incarcerate black men because they feared what would happen to the economy without free labor followed by successive efforts to continually oppress them and incarcerate black men tells me that the systemic oppression caused the culture, if we choose to call it that, to form. When fathers could be sold away or locked away at the drop of a hat for quite literally the entirety of African-American history, what should we expect to occur?

As mentioned in the rep, very good points; personally think it's a culture thing that started the oppression, back when they were taken from Africa: steal them from their land, strip away their rights and freedoms (ie: make them, "culturally-lesser," or, "culturally-beneath," White Man) and then the oppression falls in line, the second one of them attempts to take back what was taken.

JMO, I may be way off.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 05:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've seen some arguments that the targeting of the black community with mass incarceration is responsible for the absence of black father figures in the community. They cite the high percentage of black males with interaction with the criminal justice system. So is it a culture situation, or is it a result of systemic oppression?

The people "targeting the black community with mass incarceration" are mostly the black victims of crimes who call the police.

You know who was screaming the loudest for help with crimein the early 90's.  Innocent black people who were afraid to leave their homes because of deadly gang activity.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 08:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: True, it is cyclical. However, we have to think of the whole chicken and egg thing; which came first?

Maybe it's just me, but their ~250 years as chattel followed by an immediate attempt to find any excuse to incarcerate black men because they feared what would happen to the economy without free labor followed by successive efforts to continually oppress them and incarcerate black men tells me that the systemic oppression caused the culture, if we choose to call it that, to form. When fathers could be sold away or locked away at the drop of a hat for quite literally the entirety of African-American history, what should we expect to occur?

If you are going to excuse black criminal behavior today because of history then you also have to excuse white racism because it was created by our history also.

Personally I think it is bullshit to say it is okay to be a racist because that is your "culture" just as much as it is to say it is okay to be a crimnal because it is part of your "culture"

White people have to work to change their culture but black people do also.  The problem we have right now is so many people are saying that none of the problems black society is suffering from is thier own fault.  They will never excape poverty if they don't work on thier own problems at the same time white people try to eliminate systematic racism.

[masonbengals fan]

Excellent post Fred.

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 05:17 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Whites are far more likely to abuse pain medication and methamphetamine. Does that mean the "entire white culture" is comprised of pain pill and meth addicts? Of course not. Is it a problem with some? Yes, but you can't label the whole white culture with that stigma. You also can't label the "black culture" as a whole with the issues of a certain percentage. The "facts" you cite address a segment of the culture. Within those segments, the examination becomes even more nuanced as to the "why" things are that way. To simply quote statistics and deem the conclusion automatic is disingenuous as it concerns these topics. There are a great number of factors at play with each of these situations that can adversely impact behavior, outcomes and consequences. It's not as simple as stating the numbers that can identify definitive causal lines.

If I felt that white people were failing to succeeding or reach their true potential in todays society I would immediately look at the problem with opiod addiction and meth.

I never judge a black individual based on stereotypes about blacks in America.  To me that is the definition of "racism".  But when we talk about the problems facing blacks in America as a group then we are forced to look at the statistics.  I see tons of people quoting facts about black incarceration rates and poverty rates but no one claims they are being "disingenuous".

And I agree there are a lot of factors in play.  I acknowledge that racial profiling and sentence disparity contribute to the high incarceration rates of blacks.  But that does not mean we can ignore the fact that they also commit more crimes.  And lack of high quality health care leads to a higher rate of sexually transmitted disease, but it does not account for a rate hundreds of time higher than with whites and it does not explain the birth rate among blacks.

[Belsnickel]

(06-23-2020, 11:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If you are going to excuse black criminal behavior today because of history then you also have to excuse white racism because it was created by our history also.

Personally I think it is bullshit to say it is okay to be a racist because that is your "culture" just as much as it is to say it is okay to be a crimnal because it is part of your "culture"

White people have to work to change their culture but black people do also.  The problem we have right now is so many people are saying that none of the problems black society is suffering from is thier own fault.  They will never excape poverty if they don't work on thier own problems at the same time white people try to eliminate systematic racism.

So, strawman much? I'm not the one who said anything was a part of the African American culture. I asked whether it was culture or a result of systemic oppression that there was a lower rate of two parent households in the black community. You're the one putting the responsibility of crime rates on the shoulders of their family units. I also never excused criminal behavior. You really need to chill out on this one.

[Belsnickel]

(06-23-2020, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And I agree there are a lot of factors in play.  I acknowledge that racial profiling and sentence disparity contribute to the high incarceration rates of blacks.  But that does not mean we can ignore the fact that they also commit more crimes. 

But do black people commit more crimes, or are they caught more often? Serious question that is hard to answer, I know, because anything we could talk about in that regard would be purely anecdotal and not really worth diving into, so I'll leave it as a thought experiment.

But the first part of this, that is something I have to point out. When an individual has contact with the criminal justice system, their likelihood of ending up in jail/prison for something more serious increases, does it not? So if racial profiling creates a higher rate of contact with the criminal justice system, which then increases the likelihood of those individuals doing something more serious down the road, would that not mean that those things are potentially, at least partially responsible for a higher crime rate by the black community?

[fredtoast]

(06-22-2020, 04:27 PM)Belsnickel Wrote:  I'd like you to have that conversation with the scholars talking about this issue.

And I'd like you to stop pretending that their is only one side to this issue.

In other words I'd like you to talk to some scholars that don't agree with you.