KY Bill allowing Bible literacy classes in public schools

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 12:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think you are confusing "religion" with "Christianity".

The Pilgrimns were Christians and they founded this Nation

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 12:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The Pilgrimns were Christians and they founded this Nation

No, they didn't. The Virginia Company founded this nation. Without the settlements founded for money-making enterprises, those that came here due to religious intolerance would have never journeyed across the sea.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 12:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: No, they didn't. The Virginia Company founded this nation. Without the settlements founded for money-making enterprises, those that came here due to religious intolerance would have never journeyed across the sea.

Okey Doke. Not founded for religious freedoms.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 12:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The Pilgrimns were Christians and they founded this Nation

Pilgrims were the first Europeans to make permanent settlements here, but they had nothing to do with the establishment of the United States in 1776.  That would be like saying Henry Ford founded NASCAR.

And I don't see "Christianity" mentioned anywhere in the First Amendment.

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 12:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pilgrims were the first Europeans to make permanent settlements here, but they had nothing to do with the establishment of the United States in 1776.  That would be like saying Henry Ford founded NASCAR.

No, they weren't. Who taught you all history?

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 12:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Okey Doke. Not founded to to religious freedoms.

Not if you're talking about why people came here. One, business enterprises came here first. Two, those we call Pilgrims may have come to escape religious intolerance, but they were not for religious freedom (unless it meant their religion). The same can be said for every colony with a religious background that was founded, except for Pennsylvania. But even there, there was some religious intolerance for those denominations not deemed to be worthy enough to be there.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 12:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pilgrims were the first Europeans to make permanent settlements here, but they had nothing to do with the establishment of the United States in 1776.  That would be like saying Henry Ford founded NASCAR.

And I don't see "Christianity" mentioned anywhere in the First Amendment.

Hair splitting aside (not you, the who settled here first side-debate). They pilgrims came here to freely practice Christianity and the first Amendment stated no one would infringe upon the practice of that religion. They understood we were a nation founded on Christian principles. It probably never crossed their minds that they should specify because 250 later about 5% of the nation would be other religions.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 01:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not if you're talking about why people came here. One, business enterprises came here first. Two, those we call Pilgrims may have come to escape religious intolerance, but they were not for religious freedom (unless it meant their religion). The same can be said for every colony with a religious background that was founded, except for Pennsylvania. But even there, there was some religious intolerance for those denominations not deemed to be worthy enough to be there.

As I said. Everybody may not be happy with how/why this country was established, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 12:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Okey Doke. Not founded for religious freedoms.

Again, "religious freedom" does not mean "Christian principles".

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 01:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said. Everybody may not be happy with how/why this country was established, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Actually you seem to be the one who is "not happy" with the fact that the United States was not founded on "Christian principles".

"Religious freedom" means freedom for all religions, not just Christianity.

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hair splitting aside (not you, the who settled here first side-debate).

It's not hair splitting when it is historical fact.

(03-15-2016, 01:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said. Everybody may not be happy with how/why this country was established, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Agreed. Like those that are unhappy to learn this country was settled for profit before all else and would not have been settled for any other reason were it not for that.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 01:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Again, "religious freedom" does not mean "Christian principles".

Perhaps reading post #47 will provide you with more

[*Nately120*]

(03-15-2016, 01:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Hair splitting aside (not you, the who settled here first side-debate). They pilgrims came here to freely practice Christianity and the first Amendment stated no one would infringe upon the practice of that religion. They understood we were a nation founded on Christian principles. It probably never crossed their minds that they should specify because 250 later about 5% of the nation would be other religions.

Yes, but didn't the Pilgrims come here to escape persecution by Christians?  I suppose "This country was founded on the principle of getting the hell away from crazy, oppressive Christians" doesn't have the same ring to it, eh?

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 01:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's not hair splitting when it is historical fact.


Agreed. Like those that are unhappy to learn this country was settled for profit before all else and would not have been settled for any other reason were it not for that.

Of course I could say the Norse were the first to arrive in the country, so yeah, it's splitting hairs because someone wanting to make money built a store first. Most understand the Principles the Founding Fathers built these Nation on.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 01:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yes, but didn't the Pilgrims come here to escape persecution by Christians?  I suppose "This country was founded on the principle of getting the hell away from crazy, oppressive Christians" doesn't have the same ring to it, eh?

As I said: Not all are happy with how/why it was formed, but that doesn't mean it wasn't formed on those principles.

As I said the instruction should not be used to convert anyone. Because you know, stereotypes and all.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 01:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Perhaps reading post #47 will provide you with more

So you are basing your argument on something that was never said?

Way to come strong with that.  

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 01:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yes, but didn't the Pilgrims come here to escape persecution by Christians?  I suppose "This country was founded on the principle of getting the hell away from crazy, oppressive Christians" doesn't have the same ring to it, eh?

Interestingly enough, they weren't really facing persecution. The Pilgrims were just separatists. Their religion was pretty much the same as the Puritans in England, but they wanted separation of church and state. The Puritans were changing things within the system, the Pilgrims wanted out of the system. Of course, they founded a colony that wasn't all that tolerant to non-Calvinists, so it's a complicated scenario.

[*bfine32*]

(03-15-2016, 01:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you are basing your argument on something that was never said?

Way to come strong with that.  

So you consider the US Constitution to be a literal document instead of a living document that should be open to assertain what the fore-fathers ideas were. I must say I am surprised.

But you suggestion that it must be written word for word (Christian society said Religion, but they didn't mean Christianty, even though there was no option option when talking religion) has been noted.

[Belsnickel]

(03-15-2016, 01:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course I could say the Norse were the first to arrive in the country, so yeah, it's splitting hairs because someone wanting to make money built a store first. Most understand the Principles the Founding Fathers built these Nation on.

The Pilgrims and our Founding Fathers are two different groups separated by about 150 years. I was responding to this:

(03-15-2016, 12:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The Pilgrimns were Christians and they founded this Nation

and then this:

(03-15-2016, 12:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pilgrims were the first Europeans to make permanent settlements here,

The Norse did not establish permanent settlements and they did not, as far as we now, make it into what became the 13 original colonies. The first permanent settlement in the English colonies was Jamestown. The Spanish had a settlement in Florida already, I believe. Both of these were business ventures. That is what this country was founded on. The Pilgrims did not found this country, and they were not the first permanent settlement.

[fredtoast]

(03-15-2016, 01:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So you consider the US Constitution to be a literal document instead of a living document that should be open to assertain what the fore-fathers ideas were. I must say I am surprised.

WTF?

No.  I never said anything like that.

All I said is that there is no mention of "Christian principles" anywhere in the Constitution.

Do you honestly think the founding fathers would have been in favor if infringing on the rights of Jews or Muslims to worship as they please in the United States because everyone implicitly knew that there was only one true religion and it was Christianity.  Where the hell did you come up with such an insane idea?