KY school shooting

[GMDino]

(02-15-2018, 11:16 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No contradiction at all.  I don't trust police, but at the same time I realize that they are necessary.  That is why I am in favor of more regulations on police activity.

I have also never said that the government never abuses its power.  Again, that is why I am in favor of strong regulation.

Want to address what I have really said instead of just making up strawmen to knock down?

If any group is given that kind of power they need to be held to a higher standard of trust.  That doesn't mean they should exist or have that power.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2018, 09:50 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The question I ask is "are the agencies really working together to share this information?"

Is there a pipeline designed to pass this information from the schools to the appropriate authorities? From the school stand point, it seems like they did what they could within their limitations. I'm sure the local resource officer knew of the situation and did their job properly, but is there a formal line between school and local/state/federal authorities for people like this?

Because as far as I know, there only seems to be an informal one in my area. One of the functions of schools needs to be to identify dangerous people and have them monitored.

Of course we can then ask "well, what did this guy do [as an adult] that was illegal prior to this to allow the authorities to step in?"

Inter agency communication is always an issue, sadly it often happens at the personal level, as in, "I know a guy who works homicide for X".  As for this incident, I'd be very interested in seeing what steps were taken to address this obviously troubled person.  Most interesting, were the guns used his and if not WTF were his parents thinking?

[*Nately120*]

(02-15-2018, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Inter agency communication is always an issue, sadly it often happens at the personal level, as in, "I know a guy who works homicide for X".  As for this incident, I'd be very interested in seeing what steps were taken to address this obviously troubled person.  Most interesting, were the guns used his and if not WTF were his parents thinking?

I haven't looked into this specific situation, but isn't it easy enough to say "Sure, he's crazy but he still needs guns to protect him from (insert one of our culture's favorite boogie men, here)!"

[GMDino]

(02-15-2018, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Inter agency communication is always an issue, sadly it often happens at the personal level, as in, "I know a guy who works homicide for X".  As for this incident, I'd be very interested in seeing what steps were taken to address this obviously troubled person.  Most interesting, were the guns used his and if not WTF were his parents thinking?

His parents had passed away.  He was turned in by his grandmother (if I heard correctly on NPR this morning.)  The story said something about how no one who lived with him thought he was violent.

Edit: I don't think this is the story I heard this morning but it provides some details:

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/14/585908507/what-we-know-about-the-florida-school-shooting-suspect

Quote:Even as officials gain a clearer understanding of how the shooter conducted the attack, law enforcement is opening its investigation into a still more difficult question: why.

"We have already begun to dissect his websites and social media that he was on," Sheriff Scott Israel said at a news conference Wednesday evening, "and some of the things that have come [up] are very, very disturbing."

Cruz's parents are both deceased. His mother, Lynda Cruz, died of pneumonia less than four months ago at age 68, and his father, Roger Cruz, died when Nikolas and his biological brother, Zachary — also adopted by the Cruz family — were much younger, according to The Sun Sentinel.

Barbara Kumbatovich, a sister-in-law of Lynda's who lives on Long Island, N.Y., tells the newspaper that the brothers moved in with a family friend after their mother's death on Nov. 1.

"I know [Lynda] had been having some issues with them, especially the older one. He was being a problem. I know he did have some issues and he may have been taking medication. [He] did have some kind of emotional or difficulties," Kumbatovich told the paper.

The family that took Cruz into their home "got him a job at the local dollar store. They didn't see anything that would suggest any violence," Lewis said, according to The Washington Post.

"He was depressed, maybe a little quirky. But they never saw anything violent," the attorney said.

Police do not yet know the specific reason for Cruz's expulsion, besides the fact that it was tied to a disciplinary issue. Lisette Rosenblatt, the mother of a student at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High, told All Things Considered that her daughter was familiar with Cruz from previous aggressive incidents.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2018, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The Constituttion does not keep us from regulating dangerous activity.  I think we have been over this already.

Outstanding Fredtoast response, trying to answer a question without actually answering it.  We all know the answer you should have given is "yes", just man up and admit you said something incorrect, yet again.

(02-15-2018, 11:16 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No contradiction at all.  I don't trust police, but at the same time I realize that they are necessary.  That is why I am in favor of more regulations on police activity.

I have also never said that the government never abuses its power.  Again, that is why I am in favor of strong regulation.

Want to address what I have really said instead of just making up strawmen to knock down?

I just did address what you said, I don't trust the government not to abuse that type of registry, especially not at the state level.  Hence, my complete opposition to it.

(02-15-2018, 11:20 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not ignorant of these laws at all.  In fact in one of the gun threads I addressed making these laws universal and I believe you were the one who whined about them. (could have been someone else).

"Whined", so sadly typical.  Attempting to paint your opponents as childish and ignorant is a typical tactic of yours.  Interesting though, that you claim to know about these laws, made a thread about wanting to make them "universal" and then typed a response to one of my points in which you said gun owners could just lie and say their guns were stolen when law enforcement attempts to confiscate them.  You spout so much crap you clearly have a hard time keeping track, hence your constant contradictions.  You think for a lawyer you'd be able to keep your lies straight.

Quote:Glad we both acknowledge that gun owners take advantage of lax regulation in order to transfer guns illegally and then avoid prosecution by just reporting them stolen.  Too bad only 9 states have done something about it so far.

Another typical Fredtoast response, respond to an argument your opponent didn't make.  You do realize we all know you do this and that it doesn't work, right?

(02-15-2018, 11:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Hopefully the word "context" will show up on  your "word of the day" calendar soon.

When you understand "context" you will understand the difference between this



and this....

I'd suggest you choose your words more appropriately then counselor.  As a lawyer you should know this.  Say what you really mean.  For example, the Constitution is a legal document, yes or no?

[BmorePat87]

(02-15-2018, 12:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Inter agency communication is always an issue, sadly it often happens at the personal level, as in, "I know a guy who works homicide for X".  As for this incident, I'd be very interested in seeing what steps were taken to address this obviously troubled person.  Most interesting, were the guns used his and if not WTF were his parents thinking?

His adopted parents are both dead. Dad died some time earlier, mom died last year. So you have this individual with a history of trouble who is an adult and has no immediate family looking out for him. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2018, 12:09 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I haven't looked into this specific situation, but isn't it easy enough to say "Sure, he's crazy but he still needs guns to protect him from (insert one of our culture's favorite boogie men, here)!"

Actually, no.  If he's made criminal threats in the past, which has been reported, then he should have been arrested an prosecuted.  A very foreseeable consequence of such a conviction would be his firearms being taken from him.

(02-15-2018, 12:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: His parents had passed away.  He was turned in by his grandmother (if I heard correctly on NPR this morning.)  The story said something about how no one who lived with him thought he was violent.

You'll have to trust some anecdotal evidence from me on this, the people who live with him are completely full of shit.  You think they never got the reports from his school about his threatening behavior?  You think they didn't attend several school meetings about his behavior prior to his expulsion in which his behavior would be gone over in minute detail?  Bmore can verify this, expelling a child from school is a lengthy process and requires repetitious misconduct on a rather egregious level and thorough documentation.  I see this all the time in mothers of gang members, "I didn't know he was in a gang", yet the kid has tagged every inch of his room, has gang tattoos, brings home wads of cash and constantly has new clothes and jewelry the mother didn't buy him.  There are only two real possibilities; either the family buried their head in the sand and ignored the mountains of evidence that this kid was violent and dangerous, or they were afraid of trying to address it themselves.  Based on experience, my money would be on the former.  Pleading ignorance in this situation is just laughable.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2018, 12:18 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: His adopted parents are both dead. Dad died some time earlier, mom died last year. So you have this individual with a history of trouble who is an adult and has no immediate family looking out for him. 

I addressed this a bit above.  He was living with someone, someone who absolutely knew about his past behavior.

[*Nately120*]

(02-15-2018, 12:20 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, no.  If he's made criminal threats in the past, which has been reported, then he should have been arrested an prosecuted.  A very foreseeable consequence of such a conviction would be his firearms being taken from him.

Yeah, but can't we just sell him guns anyways?  I'm sure most crazy people with guns don't go on shooting sprees, and I bet there is at least one feel-good story where someone who was "too crazy to have a gun" saved someone's life.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2018, 12:23 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yeah, but can't we just sell him guns anyways?  I'm sure most crazy people with guns don't go on shooting sprees, and I bet there is at least one feel-good story where someone who was "too crazy to have a gun" saved someone's life.

Seriously, if you want to yank someone's chain try one of the typical candidates.  If you have no interest in actually discussing the subject then don't waste my time.

[*Nately120*]

(02-15-2018, 12:29 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Seriously, if you want to yank someone's chain try one of the typical candidates.  If you have no interest in actually discussing the subject then don't waste my time.

Ah sorry, for some reason I've become rather cynical about mass shootings in this country.  Maybe the one that happens tomorrow will snap me out of it.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-15-2018, 12:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I addressed this a bit above.  He was living with someone, someone who absolutely knew about his past behavior.

....and from what I've read, that AR-15 was his, and he had the key to the safe they "made him" use.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-15-2018, 12:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: ....and from what I've read, that AR-15 was his, and he had the key to the safe they "made him" use.

Huge family fail there.  What we will likely see is the age required to purchase a long gun will be raised to 21, the same as required to buy a handgun.  The more that comes out about this shooting the more it appears to have been very preventable.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-15-2018, 02:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Huge family fail there.  What we will likely see is the age required to purchase a long gun will be raised to 21, the same as required to buy a handgun.  The more that comes out about this shooting the more it appears to have been very preventable.

Absolutely agree.  The guardians totally failed this kid/young adult.  If they made him lock the gun up (if they were paying attention, he probably shouldn't have had it to begin with, but I digress), then they should have made him come to them for the key at the very least.  This is not even factoring in the obvious mental issues at play here.

[BmorePat87]

The leader of a white nationalist militia said Nikolas Cruz was a member of his group and participated in paramilitary drills in Tallahassee. Jordan Jereb told The Associated Press on Thursday that his group wants Florida to become its own white ethno-state. He said his group holds “spontaneous random demonstrations” and tries not to participate in the modern world.

http://www.wbaltv.com/article/school-shooting-suspect-facing-17-charges-premeditated-murder/18192586

[Griever]

(02-15-2018, 04:01 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The leader of a white nationalist militia said Nikolas Cruz was a member of his group and participated in paramilitary drills in Tallahassee. Jordan Jereb told The Associated Press on Thursday that his group wants Florida to become its own white ethno-state. He said his group holds “spontaneous random demonstrations” and tries not to participate in the modern world.

http://www.wbaltv.com/article/school-shooting-suspect-facing-17-charges-premeditated-murder/18192586

im sure there are good people on that side too

[*michaelsean*]

(02-15-2018, 04:01 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The leader of a white nationalist militia said Nikolas Cruz was a member of his group and participated in paramilitary drills in Tallahassee. Jordan Jereb told The Associated Press on Thursday that his group wants Florida to become its own white ethno-state. He said his group holds “spontaneous random demonstrations” and tries not to participate in the modern world.

http://www.wbaltv.com/article/school-shooting-suspect-facing-17-charges-premeditated-murder/18192586

Nothing like having an achievable goal.  Maybe he should have started with Vermont or Montana.  Then he could say he's like 98% of the way there.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-15-2018, 04:01 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The leader of a white nationalist militia said Nikolas Cruz was a member of his group and participated in paramilitary drills in Tallahassee. Jordan Jereb told The Associated Press on Thursday that his group wants Florida to become its own white ethno-state. He said his group holds “spontaneous random demonstrations” and tries not to participate in the modern world.

http://www.wbaltv.com/article/school-shooting-suspect-facing-17-charges-premeditated-murder/18192586

Why would a Latino kid join a white supremacist group?  This kid had some real issues.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-15-2018, 04:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: Why would a Latino kid join a white supremacist group?  This kid had some real issues.

I don't know.  I saw this documentary where a blind black guy joined the KKK.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-15-2018, 04:21 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't know.  I saw this documentary where a blind black guy joined the KKK.

You sure that wasn't the Dave Chapelle Show?