Kim/Trump Summit Disaster

[GMDino]

(03-01-2019, 02:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Simply said my opinion doesn't matter in a situation such as this. Everyone that has posted their opinion has "run off" and told the parents how they feel. I rely on my training over your post. 

You and the rest of the gang can hate Trump all you want, but don't bastardize a parent's thoughts of their son of their Nation's response to his death because you want to fulfill your own agenda.

Each of you should be ashamed for disregarding the tragedy in  an effort to vent your hate. But history has shown me you will not. 

No one asked you to tell us what the parents should think or to disagree or agree with them.

I said pretending you don't have an opinion because of someone you don't know or never met is just ignoring the situation to ignore it.

I don't "hate" anyone, but I know a weak leader and conman when I see one.  I'm also not afraid to express my opinion.

[Dill]

(02-28-2019, 05:53 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: This is happening right now with the EU refusing to acknowledge the sanctions put back on Iran after Trump pulled out of that treaty.

Blowing up the Iran deal does make it harder to keep sanctions in place on all three countries--Iran, Russia, and NK.

I don't know if INSTEX will really get off the ground, but it shows there is considerable will among US allies to resist US-led sanctions now.

You can't diss allies and then order them to comply with your policies.

[*bfine32*]

(03-01-2019, 02:04 AM)GMDino Wrote: No one asked you to tell us what the parents should think or to disagree or agree with them.

I said pretending you don't have an opinion because of someone you don't know or never met is just ignoring the situation to ignore it.

I don't "hate" anyone, but I know a weak leader and conman when I see one.  I'm also not afraid to express my opinion.

Never "pretended" I didn't have an opinion, just said it doesn't matter until I get the thoughts of the next of kin.

Express your opinion all you want. Expression of your opinions allow other to know who you are. But in a case such as Otto's who you are shouldn't matter in the least. 

But we'll just consider you the expert on this matter and I will concede. 

[GMDino]

(03-01-2019, 02:09 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Never "pretended" I didn't have an opinion, just said it doesn't matter until I get the thoughts of the next of kin.

Express your opinion all you want. Expression of your opinions allow other to know who you are. But in a case such as Otto's who you are shouldn't matter in the least. 

But we'll just consider you the expert on this matter and I will concede. 

Jebus you take everything personally.

A person has an opinion or they are just a vessel for others to tell you what to think.

Enjoy that.

[GMDino]

For those asking where the idea that meeting with and  being formal with NK is a bad idea is coming from.  Even FOX News talking heads feel that way.

Well until DJT did it. 

[*bfine32*]

(03-01-2019, 02:16 AM)GMDino Wrote: Jebus you take everything personally.

A person has an opinion or they are just a vessel for others to tell you what to think.

Enjoy that.

Show me where I said I didn't have an opinion..

[Dill]

(02-28-2019, 09:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well at least we haven't let this thread turn personal.

(03-01-2019, 02:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Simply said my opinion doesn't matter in a situation such as this. Everyone that has posted their opinion has "run off" and told the parents how they feel. I rely on my training over your post. 

You and the rest of the gang can hate Trump all you want, but don't bastardize a parent's thoughts of their son of their Nation's response to his death because you want to fulfill your own agenda.

Each of you should be ashamed for disregarding the tragedy in  an effort to vent your hate. But history has shown me you will not. 

Haters are using Warmbier's death to further their agenda of Trump hate if they think Trump mishandled questions about Warmbier?

Questioning Trump about the status of Warmbier's death is "disregarding the tragedy";

but accepting or ignoring Trump's defense of Kim--the dictator who certainly was using Warmbier to further his agenda--is . . . what exactly?

Not Trump hate, for sure. But hardly "regarding" the tragedy. Maybe too soon to play the shame card.

[GMDino]

(03-01-2019, 02:20 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Show me where I said I didn't have an opinion..

(02-28-2019, 07:13 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Once again no rational person thinks Kim is now more "legitimate" because Trump offered to have a second meeting and immediately walked out when NK did talk like we wanted them to. 


What happened to Otto was a tragedy and if the family is offended then I'm offended. A bunch of left wingers looking for another reason to hate is not going to do it. For all we know the family is grateful that Trump engaged in discussions about their son.

That said everyone knows you have an opinion.  No one on this board is ever shy about sharing their opinions.  Not even the posters that claim to "fair" and "unbiased".
What I said was hiding behind "empathy" and "training" is just a way to avoid saying something negative about DJT.  
But enough about you.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/02/28/otto-warmbier-what-president-trump-has-said-warmbier-north-korea/3014280002/

Quote:President Trump on Otto Warmbier: From 'brutal regime...we'll handle it' to 'I will take (Kim) at his word.'


President Donald Trump said Thursday he did not hold Kim Jong Un responsible for the death of Otto Warmbier, the Wyoming, Ohio, college student who died after being imprisoned in North Korea. 


In 2016, Warmbier, then 21 years old, was arrested and accused of committing a "hostile act" as he tried to leave North Korea. He was sent home to his parents in Ohio in June 2017 in a coma with a massive brain injury and died afterward.


Here's what Trump has said or tweeted about Warmbier. 

President Donald Trump and Kim Jong Un (Photo: Evan Vucci, AP)

 
June 19, 2017
In remarks before a meeting with technology CEOs:
"At least we got him home to be with his parents where they were so happy to see him even though he was in very tough condition ... A lot of bad things happened ... It is a brutal regime and we'll be able to handle it."

In an official statement that same day: 
"Otto's fate deepens my administration's determination to prevent such tragedies from befalling innocent people at the hands of regimes that do not respect the rule of law or basic human decency," Trump said. "The United States once again condemns the brutality of the North Korean regime as we mourn its latest victim."
View image on Twitter

Quote:
[/url]Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump




Melania and I offer our deepest condolences to the family of Otto Warmbier. Full statement: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/06/19/statement-president-donald-j-trump-passing-otto-warmbier …

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6:44 PM - Jun 19, 2017

21.6K people are talking about this


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June 20, 2017
To reporters in the Oval Office: 
"It's a total disgrace what happened to Otto. It should never, ever be allowed to happen. And frankly, if he were brought home sooner, I think the results would have been a lot different."


Warmbier "should have brought home that same day ... I spoke with his family. His family is incredible ... but he should have been brought home a long time ago."


June 21, 2017
At a rally in Cedar Rapids, Iowa:


"But you look at North Korea, what’s going — look at Otto, beautiful Otto,. Went over there a healthy, wonderful boy and you see how he came back. You see how he came back.


"Look at Otto, beautiful Otto. Went over there a healthy, beautiful boy."


Rally in Iowa: Watch President Trump discuss Otto Warmbier


Sept. 26, 2017 

Quote:
Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump




Great interview on @foxandfriends with the parents of Otto Warmbier: 1994 - 2017. Otto was tortured beyond belief by North Korea.

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6:14 AM - Sep 26, 2017
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[url=https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/912636538156146688]
Jan. 30, 2018
In his State of the Union speech, to which he invited the Warmbiers:


Otto Warmbier's family received two standing ovations during the speech. His parents, Fred and Cindy Warmbier, of Wyoming, Ohio, stood next to First Lady Melania Trump and wept as they acknowledged the cheers.


"We need only look at the depraved character of the North Korean regime to understand the nature of the nuclear threat it could pose to America and our allies," Trump said.


"Otto Warmbier was a hardworking student at the University of Virginia.  On his way to study abroad in Asia, Otto joined a tour to North Korea.  At its conclusion, this wonderful young man was arrested and charged with crimes against the state.  After a shameful trial, the dictatorship sentenced Otto to 15 years of hard labor, before returning him to America last June — horribly injured and on the verge of death.  He passed away just days after his return.


"Otto’s Parents, Fred and Cindy Warmbier, are with us tonight — along with Otto’s brother and sister, Austin and Greta.  You are powerful witnesses to a menace that threatens our world, and your strength inspires us all.  Tonight, we pledge to honor Otto’s memory with American resolve."

Parents of Otto Warmbier, Fred and Cindy Warmbier are acknowledged during the State of the Union address in the chamber of the U.S. House of Representatives January 30, 2018 in Washington, DC. This is the first State of the Union address given by U.S. President Donald Trump and his second joint-session address to Congress. (Photo: Mark Wilson, Getty Images)

May 10, 2018
Welcoming detainees from North Korea at Joint Base Andrews in Maryland:


"And I must tell you, I want to pay my warmest respects to the parents of Otto Warmbier, who was a great young man who really suffered. And his parents have become friends of ours. They are spectacular people. And I just want to pay my respects. I actually called them the other day, and Mike called them, also — Mike Pence.  And they are really incredible people."


June 12, 2018
In a news conference following his Singapore meeting with North Korea’s Kim Jong Un, the first summit between leaders of the two nations: 


"Otto Warmbier is a very special person, and he will be for a long time, in my life.  His parents are good friends of mine.  I think, without Otto, this would not have happened.  Something happened, from that day.  It was a terrible thing.  It was brutal.  But a lot of people started to focus on what was going on, including North Korea.


"I really think that Otto is someone who did not die in vain.  I told this to his parents.  Special young man.  And I have to say, special parents, special people.  Otto did not die in vain.  He had a lot to do with us being here today.  Okay?  Thank you very much."

Feb. 28, 2019
In a press conference Thursday in Hanoi, following the second summit between Kim and Trump, asked if he had brought up Warmbier's death with Kim:  


"I know the Warmbier family very well. I think they’re an incredible family. What happened is horrible. I really believe something horrible happened to him, and I really don’t think the top leadership knew about it.


"And when they had to send him home -- by the way, I got the prisoners back and the hostages back. The others came back extremely healthy but Otto came back in a condition that was terrible. And I did speak about it, but I don’t believe he would have allowed that to happen. It just wasn’t to his advantage to allow that to happen. Those prisons are rough, they’re rough places and bad things happened. But I really don’t believe that he was -- I don’t believe he knew about it.

"He felt badly about it. He knew the case very well, but he knew it later. And you’ve got a lot of people, big country, a lot of people. And in those prisons and those camps you have a lot of people. And some really bad things happened to Otto, some really, really bad things. He tells me that he didn’t know about it, and I will take him at his word."

This is why you don't have meetings with a dictator that kills his own people.
This is why you don't fly 8000 miles for a photo op with nothing negotiated.
Because when then you have to "make nice" with the dictator in front of the camera so you don't "fail".

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I'd like to point something out that is ignored in this thread, and others on this subject. Business as usual with North Korea has brought us, finally, to a nuclear armed regime headed by a petty dictatorship and the closest thing to 1984 the world has ever seen outside the book. Continued business as usual would not produce different results as the past 60 years should have adequately demonstrated.

The attempt to engage North Korea is actually one of the things Trump has done that I approve of. Has he done it exactly the way I would have preferred, no, but he has attempted a different course than the previous, ineffectual one. Will it work is the question. Well, it hasn't produced much of substance thus far, but it has started an actual dialogue. What amazes me is that some of us here are upset that nothing of substance has been achieved in two years while ignoring the fact that the previous 60 were an abject failure in this regard. Did anyone really think that two meetings in and Kim would instantly give up nuclear weapons? Did anyone really think that North Korea would give up their stranglehold on their hatred for the US bombing campaign during the Korean war? This is a process and we are in the beginning stages of it.


I get the nebulous concerns of some, I also find them to be abstract, and thus difficult to quantify or even prove. I get that some of you think Trump can't find his ass with both hands and a map. What I don't get is the labeling of this effort as an abject failure when it's still embryonic. This is a marathon and not a sprint. Some of you sound like the guy who turns the TV off after the first two offensive drives go three and out, thinking "with as bad as they look there's no way we're winning this game".

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2019, 10:18 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd like to point something out that is ignored in this thread, and others on this subject.  Business as usual with North Korea has brought us, finally, to a nuclear armed regime headed by a petty dictatorship and the closest thing to 1984 the world has ever seen outside the book.  Continued business as usual would not produce different results as the past 60 years should have adequately demonstrated.

The attempt to engage North Korea is actually one of the things Trump has done that I approve of.  Has he done it exactly the way I would have preferred, no, but he has attempted a different course than the previous, ineffectual one.  Will it work is the question.  Well, it hasn't produced much of substance thus far, but it has started an actual dialogue.  What amazes me is that some of us here are upset that nothing of substance has been achieved in two years while ignoring the fact that the previous 60 were an abject failure in this regard.  Did anyone really think that two meetings in and Kim would instantly give up nuclear weapons?  Did anyone really think that North Korea would give up their stranglehold on their hatred for the US bombing campaign during the Korean war?  This is a process and we are in the beginning stages of it.


I get the nebulous concerns of some, I also find them to be abstract, and thus difficult to quantify or even prove.  I get that some of you think Trump can't find his ass with both hands and a map.  What I don't get is the labeling of this effort as an abject failure when it's still embryonic.  This is a marathon and not a sprint.  Some of you sound like the guy who turns the TV off after the first two offensive drives go three and out, thinking "with as bad as they look there's no way we're winning this game".

If Trump had come into office saying his plan was to attempt diplomacy with NK then I would have given him more credit.  But he started off hurling insults like a middle school playground bully.  Then he did a complete 180 to the point where he is now sucking up to Kim and defending him against accusactions regarding a US citizen that was tortured to death while in his custody.

So while I agree that the prior Presidents have not had much luck in containing Kim at least they had a consistent position.  All Trump has shown the world is that they can't trust a thing our President says because he has no plan and changes his mind more often than a teenage girl shopping for shoes. 

[GMDino]

(03-01-2019, 10:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If Trump had come into office saying his plan was to attempt diplomacy with NK then I would have given him more credit.  But he started off hurling insults like a middle school playground bully.  Then he did a complete 180 to the point where he is now sucking up to Kim and defending him against accusactions regarding a US citizen that was tortured to death while in his custody.

So while I agree that the prior Presidents have not had much luck in containing Kim at least they had a consistent position.  All Trump has shown the world is that they can't trust a thing our President says because he has no plan and changes his mind more often than a teenage girl shopping for shoes. 

OT but I've said similar things about "the wall".

If there were a reasonable discussion on where it would be, what it would look like, how it would work I could get more behind it.  But just demagoging that it will stop all the Mexican rapists and drug dealers and gang members and then not really having a plan or an ability to negotiate with his own party to get it done just isn't going to convince me we need it.  

Show me that it will indeed do something that makes the cost worth it. Stats, data, reports.  Not just feels that it will make us "safer".  That's just advertising.

I mean at least with the wall he was consistent in getting people to chant for it, but the payment for it not so much.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-01-2019, 10:07 AM)GMDino Wrote:



That said everyone knows you have an opinion.  No one on this board is ever shy about sharing their opinions.  Not even the posters that claim to "fair" and "unbiased".
What I said was hiding behind "empathy" and "training" is just a way to avoid saying something negative about DJT.  
But enough about you.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2019/02/28/otto-warmbier-what-president-trump-has-said-warmbier-north-korea/3014280002/


This is why you don't have meetings with a dictator that kills his own people.
This is why you don't fly 8000 miles for a photo op with nothing negotiated.
Because when then you have to "make nice" with the dictator in front of the camera so you don't "fail".

We don't?

[GMDino]

(03-01-2019, 10:48 AM)michaelsean Wrote: We don't?

don't = shouldn't

[*michaelsean*]

(03-01-2019, 10:51 AM)GMDino Wrote: don't = shouldn't

Do you mean the actual person or the regime?  I don't know who we actually dealt with in Iran, but they're not known as being cuddly with their citizens.  

[fredtoast]

(03-01-2019, 02:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Simply said my opinion doesn't matter in a situation such as this. Everyone that has posted their opinion has "run off" and told the parents how they feel. I rely on my training over your post. 

You and the rest of the gang can hate Trump all you want, but don't bastardize a parent's thoughts of their son of their Nation's response to his death because you want to fulfill your own agenda.

Each of you should be ashamed for disregarding the tragedy in  an effort to vent your hate. But history has shown me you will not. 

A foreign country tortures a US citizen to death.  You say you don't know if you are offended at the President for sucking up to the leader of the country that killed him, and I am the one "ignoring a tragedy".

You are the one bending over backwards to try to find a reason to not be offended just so you don't have to disagree with your Donald.  You are the one trying to ignore what happened to Otto just to fit your political agenda.

[jj22]

To see the American flag draped alongside with the enemy NK flag should disgust us all (if Trump saluting the enemy general who's main goal is the destruction of America wasn't enough)

We slam people for kneeling because it supposedly turns on the flag, but Trump supporters are fine with our flag intertwined with an enemy flag?

No other President would have allowed such disgrace of our flag joining it with NK. None.

Great job Trump supporters. You guys must be so proud.

Imagine if Obama intertwined the American flag with the ISIS flag. Exactly. That's how outrageous it is to have Trump do that with our flag and NK.

[Vas Deferens]

(03-01-2019, 10:18 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'd like to point something out that is ignored in this thread, and others on this subject.  Business as usual with North Korea has brought us, finally, to a nuclear armed regime headed by a petty dictatorship and the closest thing to 1984 the world has ever seen outside the book.  Continued business as usual would not produce different results as the past 60 years should have adequately demonstrated.

The attempt to engage North Korea is actually one of the things Trump has done that I approve of.  Has he done it exactly the way I would have preferred, no, but he has attempted a different course than the previous, ineffectual one.  Will it work is the question.  Well, it hasn't produced much of substance thus far, but it has started an actual dialogue.  What amazes me is that some of us here are upset that nothing of substance has been achieved in two years while ignoring the fact that the previous 60 were an abject failure in this regard.  Did anyone really think that two meetings in and Kim would instantly give up nuclear weapons?  Did anyone really think that North Korea would give up their stranglehold on their hatred for the US bombing campaign during the Korean war?  This is a process and we are in the beginning stages of it.


I get the nebulous concerns of some, I also find them to be abstract, and thus difficult to quantify or even prove.  I get that some of you think Trump can't find his ass with both hands and a map.  What I don't get is the labeling of this effort as an abject failure when it's still embryonic.  This is a marathon and not a sprint.  Some of you sound like the guy who turns the TV off after the first two offensive drives go three and out, thinking "with as bad as they look there's no way we're winning this game".

I will actually concede that the NK situation on the whole is slightly BETTER than when he first took office, at least on face value.  Haven't heard of any rockets getting shot over the peninsula into the pacific in some time.  How things go from here, who knows.  But I do prefer them not testing delivery systems.  I truly believe these meetings aggrandize Kim in NK and make for good propaganda, but I would be lying if I said that actually matters to me.  I really don't care all that much. 

When Daddy gets up there and proclaims to be the penultimate negotiator though, of coarse people are going to say he's failed when he walks away empty handed.  The penultimate negotiator would have gotten that thing signed right there.  He's not what he claims and thats what many, myself included, immediately attack.  The man is a wholesale POS, no matter what he does he can't change that fact.  He is his own greatest enemy.

[BmorePat87]

(03-01-2019, 02:31 AM)Dill Wrote: Haters are using Warmbier's death to further their agenda of Trump hate if they think Trump mishandled questions about Warmbier?

Questioning Trump about the status of Warmbier's death is "disregarding the tragedy";

but accepting or ignoring Trump's defense of Kim--the dictator who certainly was using Warmbier to further his agenda--is . . . what exactly?

Not Trump hate, for sure. But hardly "regarding" the tragedy. Maybe too soon to play the shame card.

(03-01-2019, 10:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: A foreign country tortures a US citizen to death.  You say you don't know if you are offended at the President for sucking up to the leader of the country that killed him, and I am the one "ignoring a tragedy".

You are the one bending over backwards to try to find a reason to not be offended just so you don't have to disagree with your Donald.  You are the one trying to ignore what happened to Otto just to fit your political agenda.

Well said. The only people "disregarding the tragedy" are those who are making excuses for the President of the US believing a dictator in the matter of his nation torturing a US citizen or using outrage over his comments as a reason to engage in petty personal attacks for cheap online points.

[GMDino]

(03-01-2019, 10:54 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Do you mean the actual person or the regime?  I don't know who we actually dealt with in Iran, but they're not known as being cuddly with their citizens.  

A group of countries came together and negotiated, over 16 months, a deal with the country.

To my memory I don't think Obama went over on his own and took photos with the Iranian leader so he could say that he and he alone solved the problem.  Nor did he say Iran was absolved of any evil they might have done because "hey, big country, lots of people, how could the leader know?"

[Dill]

Contradicting Trump, Otto Warmbier's parents blame North Korean leader Kim Jung Un for the death of their son
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/contradicting-trump-otto-warmbier-s-parents-blame-north-korean-leader-n978106

The parents of Otto Warmbier issued a blistering statement on Friday saying Kim Jong Un and his government "are responsible for unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity" after President Donald Trump asserted that the North Korean dictator was unaware of the harrowing treatment the student endured while detained there.

"We have been respectful during this summit process. Now we must speak out. Kim and his evil regime are responsible for the death of our son Otto," Fred and Cindy Warmbier said in a blistering statement. "Kim and his evil regime are responsible for unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity. No excuses or lavish praise can change that."

Warmbier's parents have a clear agenda here, and it involves respect for the memory of their son, what happened to him, who did it.