LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias

[Dill]

(07-16-2020, 04:34 AM)Synric Wrote: Violent offenders have a high chance of escalating. 

Every crime no matter the severity should be handled to the letter of the law. Do not excuse one crime because you feel others have done worse.

??? missed the part where I excused one crime because I felt others were worse. If a BLM supporter is arrested for breaking a police car window during a protest, no court is going to let her off because a New-Nazi killed a BLM protestor a block away and the judge "feels" that's worse. 

In 18th century London, common folk were hanged equally for murder and for stealing bread.

When, with the expansion of voting rights which allowed people to have a say in their own punishment, they finally began to distinguish between more and less serious crimes and to devise punishments according to scale--e.g., ok to hang a murderer but not some poor orphan girl who stole because she was starving--there were no doubt people who argued against "excusing" bread theft.

In 2020 USA, the "letter of the law" distinguishes between criminal acts according to intent and severity of harm to others.  That is why we should distinguish between hate groups which encourage and practice killing peaceful members of another race, and anti-hate groups which don't want to kill anyone but do fight hate groups because the anti-hate groups are against murder of peaceful members of another race.

Assigning guilt and punishment according to intent and level of offense is not "excusing" one crime because others are worse, but one foundation of a just legal system.

[BmorePat87]

(07-16-2020, 12:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I don't know, is there?  There sure are a lot of new footage showing them vandalizing property, throwing projectiles and assaulting people.  Would not every act of violence and vandalism committed at the CHOP be the work of left wing extremists?  With so much violence the lack of an easily identifiable source on such violence is a rather troubling thing, yes? 



First of all, no one should like this group.  That is no one who actually believes in the founding principles of this nation and beleieves that people shouldn't be assaulted for having varying viewpoints.  As for the data, please refer above.

I assumed that you would have had information countered to my own if you spent the entire post trashing it. I couldn't find a breakdown of anything outside of murder. I looked for antifa specifically and I couldn't find it, but as I said in my response to Matt, it may be delayed a few years as data tends to be.

And, no one should like any of the violence that occurs, but my point was asking whether you had reason to believe they are as much of a threat as right wing extremists or if it was just personal, as it appears to be in the leaks. 

[samhain]

I think another factor to consider is the "true believer" variable. When I see footage of "ANTIFA" clowns destroying and assembling for whatever mayhem they intend to create, they look like young, impressionable (stupid) college-age individuals who are doing a thing that they perceive as righteous because they're not bright enough to figure out that it's not the way to get anything positive done. Older participants appear to be, in many cases people from academia, which is a bubble within itself, and detached from the reality that most of us live in.

I don't see this with right-wing groups. These are people with formed, serious ideological beliefs that in many cases at least think that they are willing to die for their causes. They are very similar to Islamic groups in this way. Their goals are almost identical, just within different cultural constructs. Lives mean nothing to them in terms of loss as a means to achieving "a future for white children". The Pittsburgh shooter wasn't there to vandalize a synagogue. He was there to kill as many Jews as possible and said as much. Same with Dylan roof. Atomwaffen is the same principal. People in far right groups absolutely believe that you should die if you aren't in line with their vision for what America should be. I don't necessarily see that on the left, although I'd hardly call far-left groups "tolerant".

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-16-2020, 01:46 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I assumed that you would have had information countered to my own if you spent the entire post trashing it.

That's a rather unkind assessment of my post.  I questioned the relevance of the numbers, I didn't trash it.

Quote:I couldn't find a breakdown of anything outside of murder. I looked for antifa specifically and I couldn't find it, but as I said in my response to Matt, it may be delayed a few years as data tends to be.

Neither could I, as stated, which is interesting in itself.  Why is there tracking of far right extremists but not the violence of far left extremists?  Maybe a lack of funding?  We all know that far left violence is a thing, and not exactly a rare occurrence.  So why would there be a lack of research into the problem?

Quote:And, no one should like any of the violence that occurs, but my point was asking whether you had reason to believe they are as much of a threat as right wing extremists or if it was just personal, as it appears to be in the leaks. 

That's a fair question to ask of the Trump administration.  It may be caused by the imbalance of attention in regards to far right and left violence as illustrated above.  I don't know.  I do know that Antifa, or those that fit under its umbrella, are very comfortable with the use of violence and engage in it on a not infrequent basis.

[samhain]

(07-16-2020, 04:34 AM)Synric Wrote: Violent offenders have a high chance of escalating. 

Every crime no matter the severity should be handled to the letter of the law. Do not excuse one crime because you feel others have done worse.

But in most cases, almost all of them, on the left, they aren't.  The far-right groups don't need to escalate.  They already commit murder for ideological reasons and it's documented and not really disputed.  

It's not a "chance" comparison.  They either have a historical record of murder or they don't.  People aren't charged for what their committed crimes could potentially amount to before they are committed.  That would require a clairvoyant judge and jury.  There's a chance that anyone could commit any crime by virtue of simply existing.

The letter of the law punishes murder more harshly than assault or vandalism, so I don't really see what this issue would be in viewing killing people as more violent and dangerous than other violent crimes.  You can punish people for both within the boundaries of existing laws without "feeling" any kind of way about it at all.  

[Dill]

(07-15-2020, 07:19 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/15/george-floyd-protests-police-far-right-antifa/

Days prior to Trump pushing for Antifa to be labeled a terrorist organization, DHS was warning law enforcement agencies of targeted attacks by far right groups. Despite this, an FBI memo about violent extremists sent out after Barr joined Trump's calls against antifa made no reference to any specific far right groups but targeted antifa and anarchists multiple times.

Across the country, LE agencies chased leads on antifa and there was a clear effort to link them to organized criminal activity. As more information came in about threats from groups like Boogaloo, the strategy was to draw comparisons between far right groups and antifa, even when their actions were not comparable. Portraying Antifa as a similar terrorist threat served as political red meat.

Let's take a closer look at some of those warnings, so we can better understand any problem with the disparity in emphasis.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6982389-May-29-DHS-Intel-Report-on-White-Supremacist.html

UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
(U//FOUO) OPEN SOURCE INTELLIGENCE REPORT (OSIR)
-----------------------------------------------------------------DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
OFFICE OF INTELLIGENCE AND ANALYSIS
OPEN SOURCE INTELLIGENCE REPORT
NOT FINALLY EVALUATED INTELLIGENCE
-----------------------------------------------------------------(U//FOUO) WARNING: THIS IS AN INFORMATION REPORT THAT CONTAINS RAW
UNEVALUATED INFORMATION. THIS REPORT IS UNCLASSIFIED//FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY.
(U//FOUO) This information is provided for intelligence and lead purposes
only. This information may not be used as the basis for any U.S. legal
process, including but not limited to: presentation to any U.S. Grand/Petit
juries or administrative bodies; incorporation into affidavits or other
documents relating to subpoenas, search, electronic surveillance, or arrest
warrants; and/or as evidence in criminal prosecutions without the prior
written authorization of DHS Headquarters.
-----------------------------------------------------------------(U//FOUO) SERIAL: OSIR-04001-0669-20

(U//FOUO) SUBJECT: Extremist instant messaging channel incites using
'cocktails, chainsaws, and firearms' against riot police.
(U//FOUO) SUMMARY: An extremist encrypted instant messaging channel incites

others to use "cocktails, chainsaws, and firearms" against riot police.
Source also states breaking down "the police state and the system of control"

...3. (U//FOUO) Soon after, on 28 May 2020, Source replied to the previous reply
and stated, "When Riot Police employs the generic and common pulse tactic for
arrests the important thing is to break their lines with cocktails,
chainsaws, and firearms. Pig armor is made for bricks and blades. The pig
knows his only advantage is equipment and training. Take away the equipment
advantage and outnumber their training and you have an equal fight". As of 29
May 2020, the post had approximately 1,740 views.

4. (U//FOUO) On 29 May 2020, Source shared two images posted by another user
that stated, "Reminder that looting and shoplifting are both cool and whites
should be doing it way more" and "[...] When the laws no longer benefit you,
break them for personal gain. If you don't feel like buying something, steal
it. If you don't feel like driving slow, drive fast. If you don't like
someone, hurt them." Source replied to this post and stated, "We ought to
revel in the destruction of the police state. It is just as necessary to
break down the police state and the system of control as it is to spread
racial hatred". As of 29 May 2020, the post had approximately 507 views.

[BmorePat87]

(07-16-2020, 02:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's a rather unkind assessment of my post.  I questioned the relevance of the numbers, I didn't trash it.



Neither could I, as stated, which is interesting in itself.  Why is there tracking of far right extremists but not the violence of far left extremists?  Maybe a lack of funding?  We all know that far left violence is a thing, and not exactly a rare occurrence.  So why would there be a lack of research into the problem?


That's a fair question to ask of the Trump administration.  It may be caused by the imbalance of attention in regards to far right and left violence as illustrated above.  I don't know.  I do know that Antifa, or those that fit under its umbrella, are very comfortable with the use of violence and engage in it on a not infrequent basis.

I take back the word "trashed" and will replace it with "scrutinize" or "critique". It was a charged word and the two of us are 99% of the time civil and respectful of each other. That's on me.

On to paragraph 2, With the DHS backing the project, I doubt it's a lack of funding. I think there was an attention shift back to homegrown terrorism after a decade of focus on foreign terrorism and right wing terrorism by what seems to be nearly every metric represents the biggest threat. The UMD project does look at other types of extremism, but the bulk of their work focusing on right wing seems to reflect the bulk of the incidences being right wing. 

The memos from the DOJ focusing on multiple left wing groups while not naming any right wing groups seems to suggest a partisan ploy by appointees rather than the career staffers. For the reasons you state at the end, it absolutely it critical that the data be reviewed and left wing extremism be addressed. The issue still remains, though, that the actions revealed in the leak are problematic. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-16-2020, 02:21 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I take back the word "trashed" and will replace it with "scrutinize" or "critique". It was a charged word and the two of us are 99% of the time civil and respectful of each other. That's on me.

On to paragraph 2, With the DHS backing the project, I doubt it's a lack of funding. I think there was an attention shift back to homegrown terrorism after a decade of focus on foreign terrorism and right wing terrorism by what seems to be nearly every metric represents the biggest threat. The UMD project does look at other types of extremism, but the bulk of their work focusing on right wing seems to reflect the bulk of the incidences being right wing. 

The memos from the DOJ focusing on multiple left wing groups while not naming any right wing groups seems to suggest a partisan ploy by appointees rather than the career staffers. For the reasons you state at the end, it absolutely it critical that the data be reviewed and left wing extremism be addressed. The issue still remains, though, that the actions revealed in the leak are problematic. 

No worries, and we both agree that extremism of any sort is a problem.  I think part of the issue here is, aside from the lack of data, is that right wing extremists tend towards the grander action while left wing extremists engage in more mundane, but frequent, activity.  Post Vietnam era the type of organized left wing extremism does not exist on the same level as right wing.  Also, bigger events tend to get more press and DOJ attention then day to day criminal activity.  One need look no further than Islamic terrorism to see a perfect example of this.  

Based on what I see, and what is reported to me by friends in the Seattle and Portland area, Antifa is a major fomentor of violence on a frequent basis.  Whether you want to view them as one organization or a loose affiliation of like minded people the fact is they refer to themselves as a whole.  They are a significant problem, especially in accelerating polarization and normalizing violence as a reaction to disagreement and they absolutely should be addressed, just as right wing extremism should.

[Dill]

Should anyone want to delve deeper into the sources and ideology behind Antifa, to better understand their motives and methods, The Anti-Fascist Handbook is a good place to start.

https://libcom.org/files/Antifa,%20The%20Anti-Fascist%20Handbook.pdf

Chapter 5 on Free Speech, as understood by (it is claimed) the majority of Antifa actors might be useful for discussions on this and future threads about the effects of protests and Trumpism on free speech in the US today.

Chapter 6 outlines means of opposing fascism, without chainsaws.

The  vast  majority  of  anti-fascist  tactics  involve  no  physical  violence  whatsoever.  Anti-fascists  conduct  research  on  the  Far  Right  online,  in  person,  and  sometimes  through  infiltration;  they  dox  them,  push  cultural  milieux  to  disown  them,  pressure  bosses  to  fire  them,  and  demand  that  venues  cancel their shows, conferences, and meetings; they organize educational events, reading groups, trainings, athletic tournaments, and fund-raisers; they write articles, leaflets, and news-papers, drop banners, and make videos; they support refugees and  immigrants,  defend  reproductive  rights,  and  stand  up  against police brutality.

But it is also true that some of them punch Nazis in the face and don’t apologize for it.

In fact, more than anything, it was the anti-fascist punching of Richard Spencer on Inauguration Day 2017 that catapulted the question of antiracist violence into the national spotlight. Yet  even  when  somewhat  sympathetic,  most  coverage  of  the  act  and  the  politics  surrounding  it  reduced  anti-fascist  vio-lence  to  the  purportedly  trivial,  individualistic  act  of  “Nazi-punching.” (168)

[BmorePat87]

(07-16-2020, 02:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No worries, and we both agree that extremism of any sort is a problem.  I think part of the issue here is, aside from the lack of data, is that right wing extremists tend towards the grander action while left wing extremists engage in more mundane, but frequent, activity.  Post Vietnam era the type of organized left wing extremism does not exist on the same level as right wing.  Also, bigger events tend to get more press and DOJ attention then day to day criminal activity.  One need look no further than Islamic terrorism to see a perfect example of this.  

Based on what I see, and what is reported to me by friends in the Seattle and Portland area, Antifa is a major fomentor of violence on a frequent basis.  Whether you want to view them as one organization or a loose affiliation of like minded people the fact is they refer to themselves as a whole.  They are a significant problem, especially in accelerating polarization and normalizing violence as a reaction to disagreement and they absolutely should be addressed, just as right wing extremism should.

That's a good point. For decades we did hear about left wing extremists bombing government buildings. Now we hear about right wing extremists trying to build bombs while left wing extremists are hitting Neo Nazis and Proud Boys with bats. The violence of the latter is important but can get lost in the grand scheme of things while the magnitude of the former is unavoidable. 

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2020, 02:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:   Why is there tracking of far right extremists but not the violence of far left extremists?  Maybe a lack of funding?  We all know that far left violence is a thing, and not exactly a rare occurrence.  So why would there be a lack of research into the problem?

You have obviously not read the article linked in the OP.

Official documents have been leaked that show that they are paying more attention to Antifa than the alt-right terrorists. 

[fredtoast]

(07-16-2020, 12:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: OK, fair enough.  The number of murders is so minuscule that neither group is a threat of any significance.  Considering organized street gangs kill thousands a year, and more people in any given month in Chicago alone than right wing extremists in a whole year, maybe neither group is worthy of this kind of intense focus?

It is not just the number of deaths.  It is the terrorist nature of the murders.  The alt-right terrorists are specifically targeting law enforcement.

 those violent aspirations appear to have materialized in a string of targeted attacks in California that left a federal protective services officer and a sheriff’s deputy dead and several other law enforcement officials wounded.


Michael German, a former FBI agent specializing in domestic terrorism and current fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice, said the materials were rife with examples of law enforcement intelligence being politicized in ways that endangered both protesters and police alike.  German argued that the impulse to paint both sides of the political spectrum with the same brush, despite the fact that only the far right is actively killing people, is among the most dangerous features of modern American law enforcement.



Far-right extremists have been targeting and killing law enforcement, not to mention members of the general public, for generations, German explained, and in fact, the government’s own documents show that those ideas were percolating in extremist corners of the right at the same time that Trump and U.S. Attorney General William Barr were preparing to crack down on the left.



 The president’s own DHS analysts issued an open source intelligence report detailing how a white supremacist channel on Telegram, an encrypted messaging service, was encouraging followers to capitalize on the unrest by targeting the police with Molotov cocktails and firearms.



“The use of firearms greatly influences the scale and intensity of these events,” a source in the group, titled “National Accelerationist Revival,” wrote on May 27, advising followers to break police lines “with cocktails, chainsaws, and firearms.” .  .  .  “We ought to revel in the destruction of the police state,” they wrote. “It is just as necessary to break down the police state and the system of control as it is to spread racial hatred.”


Among the developments cited in the bulletin was the May 29 assassination of a federal court security guard in Oakland. The alleged perpetrator would later be identified as Steven Carrillo, a 32-year-old sergeant in an elite Air Force security unit. According to authorities, Carrillo would go on to ambush and kill a sheriff’s deputy and wound several others in a second targeted attack days later.

[samhain]

(07-16-2020, 02:40 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's a good point. For decades we did hear about left wing extremists bombing government buildings. Now we hear about right wing extremists trying to build bombs while left wing extremists are hitting Neo Nazis and Proud Boys with bats. The violence of the latter is important but can get lost in the grand scheme of things while the magnitude of the former is unavoidable. 

It could be somewhat like the old East Coast bias we always hear about in college football.  Most of the games people care about start at noon or in the late afternoon, and take place east of the Mississippi.  

Leftist violence is a lot more common and sustained on the West Coast.  Cities like Seattle, Portland and Oakland (Berkeley) seem to have no shortage of people regularly participating.  You don't hear about this as much in the Midwest, East Coast or Southeast unless some kind of unrelated event attracts accelerationists.  

People in the normal-news-cycle part of the US haven't really had left-wing violence going on in their backyards to the degree that people have out west.

[GMDino]

https://www.inquirer.com/news/proud-boys-philly-police-fop-mike-pence-mcnesby-trump-alt-right-20200710.html

Quote:Philly’s police union says it didn’t invite Proud Boys to a Pence after-party. It didn’t ask them to leave, either.
by Jeremy Roebuck, Ellie Rushing and Oona Goodin-Smith, Updated: July 10, 2020






ELLIE RUSHING / STAFF WRITER



A day after members of the alt-right group the Proud Boys were seen openly mingling with officers outside a party following Vice President Mike Pence’s Thursday visit to Philadelphia, the head of the city’s police union said he had not invited them — though he stopped short of condemning their presence at the event.

About 10 men who identified themselves as members of the group attended the “Back the Blue” after-party Thursday evening at the 7C Lounge, a members-only bar housed at the headquarters of Lodge 5 of the Fraternal Order of Police in Northeast Philadelphia, where the vice president had addressed a crowd earlier in the evening.

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Police officers in and out of uniform milled about the parking lot with the group’s members — one of whom was carrying a Proud Boys flag and others who wore baseball caps embroidered with the organization’s name. Officers stopped at one point to ask if a group of men, some wearing Proud Boys paraphernalia, were OK as they surrounded and aggressively questioned two Inquirer reporters.


Asked Friday about the incident and the group’s presence at the party, police union president John McNesby said: “We oppose hate in any form. Under no circumstances were individuals associated with the Proud Boys invited to attend.”

He did not respond to follow-up questions about whether the union took any steps to remove the men and whether he personally found their presence to be troubling.
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But Brian Levin, a former New York City police officer and director of the Center for Study of Hate & Extremism at California State University-San Bernardino, described a Proud Boy presence at any police-sponsored event as alarming.

“At a time when police-community relations are particularly strained, it’s bewildering that anyone associated with law enforcement would want to be in the same room with these folks,” he said.


STEVEN M. FALK / STAFF PHOTOGRAPHER
Demonstrators who identified themselves as members of the Proud Boys yell to demonstrators there to support Vice President Mike Pence during his visit Thursday to Lodge 5 headquarters of the Fraternal Order of Police in Northeast Philadelphia.

The Proud Boys, a self-described “Western chauvinist” organization designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as a “general hate group,” is one of the many predominately male right-wing groups to have come to the fore since the election of President Donald Trump.

The Proud Boy presence at the Fraternal Order of Police party — and the apparent ease with which they moved about the crowd — is the latest in a string of incidents in which Philadelphia officers have appeared to be overly chummy with sometimes armed, right-wing demonstrators during protests that have erupted in the wake of George Floyd’s death.


Members of the Proud Boys Philadelphia chapter have been spotted at rallies over the last month donning the organization’s traditional dark polo shirts with a gold trim on the collars. Recently, the chapter has tweeted photos of members delivering snacks and posing with officers at a police district headquarters in North Philadelphia.

But the group that arrived Thursday to support police and spar verbally with Black Lives Matter protesters outside Pence’s rally at FOP headquarters announced their presence more overtly.
They bore no arms, but they proudly carried a Proud Boys flag, shouting “All Lives Matter” and yelling taunts at female protesters across the street. Though their interactions with Black demonstrators were tense, they did not adopt some of the more openly racist taunts hurled by some members of a separate crowd that had gathered to support police and Trump’s reelection.

Levin, the extremism center director, said that Proud Boys often adopt subtle, yet still racially charged rhetoric to mask the extreme views espoused by the group.

“They talk out of both sides of their mouths,” he said. “There are things that they say that are obnoxious but are not particularly different than what you’d see on Tucker Carlson. They have this uniform that may not register with some folks who aren’t familiar with them. But they have a record of bigotry, nationalism, and violence.”


After the vice president had left and the protests started to break up, officers cleared barricades from a driveway to the FOP lodge, allowing the pro-police demonstrators to head up to the after-party at the 7C Lounge — the Proud Boys group among them.

Two Inquirer reporters who followed them witnessed Proud Boys milling about the FOP lodge parking lot, proudly waving their flag as they drank and chatted with a crowd of attendees and officers that had spilled into the parking lot from the bar inside.
When one of the reporters attempted to take a photo, a group of about six men surrounded her and her colleague and aggressively questioned them about their intentions. One of the men accompanying the Proud Boys members warned that the reporters were “heading down a dangerous road” by continuing to be there.

Uniformed bicycle cops approached the group as the conversation went on and asked whether the men surrounding the two female journalists were OK. The officers asked to see the reporters’ credentials, then left while the confrontation continued.


Deanna Gamble, a spokesperson for Mayor James Kenney, said the scene the reporters described was troubling and that Kenney was looking into the matter.

“He finds what he knows about the [Proud Boys] to be reprehensible,” she said. “It is certainly concerning to see them welcomed at a private event that was attended by any Philadelphians — especially city employees.”

Police Commissioner Danielle Outlaw declined to comment, as did other officials who spoke at the earlier Pence rally, like U.S. Attorney William M. McSwain, but did not attend the after-party next door.

On Friday, the Proud Boys Philadelphia posted several photos from the rally on its public page on the social media message app Telegram. Among them: one with a sexually explicit caption taunting an Inquirer reporter they had confronted the night before.

“It was a public event. We were there to give police support, not the other way around,” the group wrote in an email to The Inquirer. They added: “We’re a men’s fraternity, not a bunch of soy boys. We saw the reporters’ feed and made a joke. Get over it.”

Staff writers Anna Orso, William Bender, and Mike Newall contributed to this article




Posted: July 10, 2020 - 6:56 PM

[fredtoast]

"Police Commissioner Danielle Outlaw declined to comment"



Seriously?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2020, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.inquirer.com/news/proud-boys-philly-police-fop-mike-pence-mcnesby-trump-alt-right-20200710.html

Sincere question, what makes the Proud Boys "alt-right"?  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-16-2020, 06:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have obviously not read the article linked in the OP.

Official documents have been leaked that show that they are paying more attention to Antifa than the alt-right terrorists. 

That would make the lack of hard data on Antifa's criminal activity even more puzzling, would it not?

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2020, 11:55 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That would make the lack of hard data on Antifa's criminal activity even more puzzling, would it not?

Not really.  There is not "hard data" because the FBI only worries about extreme violence, assasinations, and organized threats to society.  Antifa does not display a pattern of that type of behavior.

There is not a lot of "hard data" on the criminal activity of the Girl Scouts of America either.  But I am not puzzled by that.


When you say "lack of funding" what exactly do you mean?  Do you mean there is seperate funding for investigating the alt-right as opposed to the left wing extremists.

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2020, 11:54 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sincere question, what makes the Proud Boys "alt-right"?  

They are a right-wing group that rejects mainstream politics.

[*bfine32*]

(07-17-2020, 08:55 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://www.inquirer.com/news/proud-boys-philly-police-fop-mike-pence-mcnesby-trump-alt-right-20200710.html

What are we mad about on this one?