LE Leaks show treatment of pro BLM protestors vs conservative militias

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2020, 01:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What are we mad about on this one?

The police are welcoming representatives from a known violent gang to a private gathering for Pence.


The Proud Boy presence at the Fraternal Order of Police party — and the apparent ease with which they moved about the crowd — is the latest in a string of incidents in which Philadelphia officers have appeared to be overly chummy with sometimes armed, right-wing demonstrators during protests that have erupted in the wake of George Floyd’s death.


Click the highlighted links for more info.

Trump tries to sell his administration is supporting "law and order", but outside Pence's party the police welcome a group with known criminal behavior.  Multiple Proud Boys have been convicted of assaults.

[samhain]

(07-17-2020, 01:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The police are welcoming representatives from a known violent gang to a private gathering for Pence.


The Proud Boy presence at the Fraternal Order of Police party — and the apparent ease with which they moved about the crowd — is the latest in a string of incidents in which Philadelphia officers have appeared to be overly chummy with sometimes armed, right-wing demonstrators during protests that have erupted in the wake of George Floyd’s death.


Click the highlighted links for more info.

Trump tries to sell his administration is supporting "law and order", but outside Pence's party the police welcome a group with known criminal behavior.  Multiple Proud Boys have been convicted of assaults.

And as we know from all of the ANTIFA outrage, groups that participate in street melee are super terrible.  As another poster said in this thread, "nobody should like these people".

[samhain]

(07-17-2020, 11:54 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sincere question, what makes the Proud Boys "alt-right"?  

Lionization of authoritarianism (wearing Pinochet shirts, reenacting right wing murders of leftists, etc.  Close ties with antisemitic groups (Unite the Right Rally).  Regularly engaging in politically motivated violence.  

Are these things that Republicans did before Alt-Right was a term?

[Belsnickel]

(07-17-2020, 11:54 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sincere question, what makes the Proud Boys "alt-right"?  

They've actually been trying to distance themselves from the alt-right because the alt-right is racist, while they focus on "western values." If you think I'm joking, I am not.

[Belsnickel]

So back in 2018, apparently there was an incident in which the FBI said the Proud Boys were an extremist group. Then they backpedaled and said that they focus on criminal activity of individuals, not group membership, and they had not intended to label the group as such and that's not something they do for domestic terrorism.

Interesting stuff.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2018/12/08/fbi-says-proud-boys-are-not-an-extremist-group-after-all/

[BmorePat87]

(07-17-2020, 11:54 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sincere question, what makes the Proud Boys "alt-right"?  

They're fairly far right, reject mainstream US conservatism, and promote a version of white nationalism that they label as promoting Western culture.

Whether or not they are an extremist group, however, is questionable, and I would compare it to the way I discussed antifa, suggesting that the actions of local chapters and individual actors is a better way to gauge extremism than suggesting the entire group is.

The group itself is a quasi fascist, soft racist group, which isn't inherently "extremist" on its own. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-17-2020, 01:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The police are welcoming representatives from a known violent gang to a private gathering for Pence.


The Proud Boy presence at the Fraternal Order of Police party — and the apparent ease with which they moved about the crowd — is the latest in a string of incidents in which Philadelphia officers have appeared to be overly chummy with sometimes armed, right-wing demonstrators during protests that have erupted in the wake of George Floyd’s death.


Click the highlighted links for more info.

Trump tries to sell his administration is supporting "law and order", but outside Pence's party the police welcome a group with known criminal behavior.  Multiple Proud Boys have been convicted of assaults.

Did police also "welcome" the BLM members who came to protest. These PBs were unarmed and non-disruptive; just as I assume the BLM folks were. I will admit those black polos were quire intimidating.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2020, 01:56 PM)samhain Wrote: And as we know from all of the ANTIFA outrage, groups that participate in street melee are super terrible.  As another poster said in this thread, "nobody should like these people".

Participating in a street melee does not make one "super terrible" if one is defending themselves from an aggressor.  I'm certainly not saying the opposite doesn't exist, but the news stories and videos I've seen of them engaged in a street fight were started by Antifa.  I'd certainly say they definitely attempt to provoke Antifa, hence marching through Portland on the regular.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2020, 02:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: They've actually been trying to distance themselves from the alt-right because the alt-right is racist, while they focus on "western values." If you think I'm joking, I am not.

(07-17-2020, 02:55 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: They're fairly far right, reject mainstream US conservatism, and promote a version of white nationalism that they label as promoting Western culture.

Whether or not they are an extremist group, however, is questionable, and I would compare it to the way I discussed antifa, suggesting that the actions of local chapters and individual actors is a better way to gauge extremism than suggesting the entire group is.

The group itself is a quasi fascist, soft racist group, which isn't inherently "extremist" on its own. 

Thank you for the sincere responses.  The media is very quick to slap labels on people and groups so I rarely give the labels much credence without outside corroboration.  I knew they were started by Gavin McInnes and were pro traditional western culture and that was about it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2020, 01:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not really.  There is not "hard data" because the FBI only worries about extreme violence, assasinations, and organized threats to society.  Antifa does not display a pattern of that type of behavior.

Everyone I know in Portland would disagree with you on that.  I'm sure the normal people who unfortunately fell inside the boundaries of CHOP would as well.

Quote:There is not a lot of "hard data" on the criminal activity of the Girl Scouts of America either.  But I am not puzzled by that.

Well, until they stop selling Samoas (or caramel delights), that would be criminal.  Also, silly analogy.

Quote:When you say "lack of funding" what exactly do you mean?  Do you mean there is seperate funding for investigating the alt-right as opposed to the left wing extremists.

Well, someone Bmore used the ADL as a source, who funds them?  Or the SPLC for that matter?

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2020, 03:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Did police also "welcome" the BLM members who came to protest. These PBs were unarmed and non-disruptive; just as I assume the BLM folks were. I will admit those black polos were quire intimidating.

The BLM protestors were not allowed in the parking lot of the private party like the Proud Boys were.

Police were not seen mingling with the BLM protestors and checking on their safety like they were with proud Boys.

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2020, 03:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: the news stories and videos I've seen of them engaged in a street fight were started by Antifa.

You must be pretty selective in what you choose to watch.

Proud Boys were convicted of assault when they started a fight with Antifa in New York.  It was very ugly and caught on video.

Or you could just Google Proud Boy Tusitala "tiny" Toese.  Plenty of videos of him being extremely violent.

An Infowars livestream hosted by Owen Shroyer captured Tusitala “Tiny” Toese — who is an active member of the hate group the Proud Boys in addition to his prominence in Patriot Prayer — screaming at and threatening a small group of young African American men attending Austin’s Pecan Street Festival. According to Shroyer’s commentary, Toese went after them because they were wearing Obama hats.


“You won’t survive in my world, boy!” Toese roared. “You won’t survive in my world!”

“I’ll blow through your ****** window!” he said, and then two police officers intervened and removed him from the fray.

Toese, who stands at 6 foot 3 inches tall and weighs more than 300 pounds, has developed a reputation for responding with explosive anger when confronted with opposing views. At a Patriot Prayer rally in May 2017, he was caught on video punching a man half his size in the face. Later that summer, he caught a disorderly conduct citation from Portland police for brawling at another protest, and later failed to appear in court on the misdemeanor. In December 2017, he was arrested at yet another demonstration on charges of disorderly conduct, harassment and assault. This June, he and Donovon Flippo, fellow member of the Proud Boys, allegedly violently confronted a man at a Portland area mall. According to the accuser, the men called him a “******,” and then Toese punched him in the face, knocking him to the ground.

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2020, 03:52 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, someone Bmore used the ADL as a source, who funds them?  Or the SPLC for that matter?

I assume both the ADL and the SPLC would be interested in investigating any hate group.

The ADL fights anti-Semitism, I assume they concentrate on anti-Semitic groups.  If they are not tracking Antifa I assume it is because Antifa is not anti-Semitic.  Why do you think they would have funds to track the violent alt-right groups but not Antifa if Antifa was a dangerous threat?

Same with the Southern Poverty Law Center.  It is a charity that anyone can contribute to.  It tracks violent hate groups.  Why would it not track Antifa if it was a violent hate group?

[samhain]

(07-17-2020, 03:47 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Participating in a street melee does not make one "super terrible" if one is defending themselves from an aggressor.  I'm certainly not saying the opposite doesn't exist, but the news stories and videos I've seen of them engaged in a street fight were started by Antifa.  I'd certainly say they definitely attempt to provoke Antifa, hence marching through Portland on the regular.

If they are defending is they key term.  They may have at some point been doing so, but it seems that now they along with Patriot Prayer are just the other teams in the intramural street violence events held semi-regularly in places like Portland.  

I guess my view of defending from an aggressor is more of someone walking down the street for everyday activities, getting something thrown at them, then attacking the person who threw it.  I'm not sure these guys qualify for that at this point.  

[samhain]

(07-17-2020, 03:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Thank you for the sincere responses.  The media is very quick to slap labels on people and groups so I rarely give the labels much credence without outside corroboration.  I knew they were started by Gavin McInnes and were pro traditional western culture and that was about it.

I watched a lot of interviews and podcasts from Gavin.  He's genuinely funny.  I don't necessarily believe he's racist, either.  He just gets a little out there from time to time.  He was directly calling for right-wingers to attack leftists in one interview, and it wasn't an abstract suggestion.  It was straight up saying it.  I tend to think that the group got away from him in terms of radicalism and violence and he could no longer take the heat outside of the media he operates in.

I see them as the Fisher-Price "My First Far Right Organization".  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2020, 04:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Same with the Southern Poverty Law Center.  It is a charity that anyone can contribute to.  It tracks violent hate groups.  Why would it not track Antifa if it was a violent hate group?

Would wouldn't they indeed?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-17-2020, 05:11 PM)samhain Wrote: If they are defending is they key term.  They may have at some point been doing so, but it seems that now they along with Patriot Prayer are just the other teams in the intramural street violence events held semi-regularly in places like Portland.  

I guess my view of defending from an aggressor is more of someone walking down the street for everyday activities, getting something thrown at them, then attacking the person who threw it.  I'm not sure these guys qualify for that at this point.  

(07-17-2020, 05:17 PM)samhain Wrote: I watched a lot of interviews and podcasts from Gavin.  He's genuinely funny.  I don't necessarily believe he's racist, either.  He just gets a little out there from time to time.  He was directly calling for right-wingers to attack leftists in one interview, and it wasn't an abstract suggestion.  It was straight up saying it.  I tend to think that the group got away from him in terms of radicalism and violence and he could no longer take the heat outside of the media he operates in.

I see them as the Fisher-Price "My First Far Right Organization".  

A fair assessment, thank you.  Based on this assessment would you apply the far left organization label to Antifa, or those operating under its aegis?

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2020, 05:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Would wouldn't they indeed?

I have no idea.

You were the one who brought them up, so why don't you tell me?

[samhain]

I don't have links, but I've been seeing articles on FB about Federal Law Enforcement driving around Portland in plain clothes and unmarked vehicles to scout out and detain leftist protesters. The articles allege than many of the detainees are being held at Chicago-Style "black sites" and are not being charged with crimes. I'll wait to see more info and other angles to pass judgement, but if this is the case, it's no bueno.

If Feds want to arrest and detain people for crimes, then I'm all for it. If they want to bust vandals and assailants, then go nuts. Doing so minus charges is illegal as hell and should scare the hell out of everyone. And yes, if they did this to right-wing groups, I'd say the exact same. This sort of thing is a slide into authoritarianism. If the Feds can do this to leftists, who's to stop them from doing it to people on the right if a Dem Justice Dept comes to power? Who's to stop them from doing it to anyone?

[samhain]

(07-17-2020, 05:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: A fair assessment, thank you.  Based on this assessment would you apply the far left organization label to Antifa, or those operating under its aegis?

Well, yeah.  Anyone resorting to violence to advance their cause is outside the norm on the political spectrum. I'm pretty far to the left, but I strongly dislike the idea of mob rule in any form.