Legitimate Arguments Against the 2nd Amendment

[Vlad]

(02-21-2016, 04:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I strongly disagree with you.  I think that people would be drinking and driving and killing people all obver the place if there were no laws against it.

I'm not sure it would be much worse. Drunk drivers are already killing people all over the place.


An average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest.

Every day in America, another 28 people die as a result of drunk driving crashes.

50 to 75 percent of convicted drunk drivers continue to drive on a suspended license.

In 2013, 10,076 people died in drunk driving crashes - one every 52 minutes - and 290,000 were injured in drunk driving crashes.
An average drunk driver has driven drunk 80 times before first arrest.


Every two minutes, a person is injured in a drunk driving crash.

Drunk driving costs the United States $199 billion a year.

On average, two in three people will be involved in a drunk driving crash in their lifetime.

Drunk driving costs each adult in the United States almost $800 per year.

In 2012, 29.1 million people admitted to driving under the influence of alcohol - that’s more than the population of Texas.
http://www.madd.org/drunk-driving/about/drunk-driving-statistics.html

How could all this be, isn't there a law?

Tell Muslim terrorists that its against the law to go around killing innocent people. See how that works.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-21-2016, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Still not following what you are saying.

Are you saying these people all drove drunk and did not wreck, or are you saying that they did not drive drunk?

Seems to me you are claiming that they were all driving drunk but not wrecking.  Otherwise how would you know how strongly the laws were enforced.

I really find it hard top believe that people in other countries can drink and drive without wrecking.

You not getting this is extremely humorous.

OK....

I did not say that these people are drinking and driving.  In fact it seems to be the opposite, even though they are very lax on their laws.

You seem to think that without the current laws that our drinking and driving rates will increase.  That the laws and the licensing is preventing deaths and without them more people will drive drunk and we would have more accidents and more deaths.

I disagreed with you and provided my own experience.  I have been to countries where drinking is legal, these countries have very lax laws regarding driving, to the point that all you might need is just a picture taken and no real testing.

Now without the strict licensing and the ability to drink and law isn't strictly enforced.  They don't have a lot of drunk driving deaths.  They have some, but not a huge increase as you seem to think we would have without the regulation.

While stationed in Korea, I had to do a bit of driving.  Now, I am/was licensed in the US, but the Korean government had no way of knowing or verifying my ability.  I didn't even have to show that I had a license when getting a vehicle.  Even then, I still couldn't read their traffic signs and just drove as defensively as possible.

So no, I am not saying everyone is just driving around drunk...*chuckles*... I am just saying that there doesn't seem to be an increase of drunk driving related instances in my opinions.  

[Belsnickel]

(02-22-2016, 01:21 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: You not getting this is extremely humorous.

OK....

I did not say that these people are drinking and driving.  In fact it seems to be the opposite, even though they are very lax on their laws.

You seem to think that without the current laws that our drinking and driving rates will increase.  That the laws and the licensing is preventing deaths and without them more people will drive drunk and we would have more accidents and more deaths.

I disagreed with you and provided my own experience.  I have been to countries where drinking is legal, these countries have very lax laws regarding driving, to the point that all you might need is just a picture taken and no real testing.

Now without the strict licensing and the ability to drink and law isn't strictly enforced.  They don't have a lot of drunk driving deaths.  They have some, but not a huge increase as you seem to think we would have without the regulation.

While stationed in Korea, I had to do a bit of driving.  Now, I am/was licensed in the US, but the Korean government had no way of knowing or verifying my ability.  I didn't even have to show that I had a license when getting a vehicle.  Even then, I still couldn't read their traffic signs and just drove as defensively as possible.

So no, I am not saying everyone is just driving around drunk...*chuckles*... I am just saying that there doesn't seem to be an increase of drunk driving related instances in my opinions.  

I think it's hard to look at other countries for a comparison on this regard. The attitude towards alcohol in this country is a bit unique and more about excess than it is in other cultures, at least from my understanding of it.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-22-2016, 08:45 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think it's hard to look at other countries for a comparison on this regard. The attitude towards alcohol in this country is a bit unique and more about excess than it is in other cultures, at least from my understanding of it.

I can only provide my own experience in this matter.

I have always found the need to make drinking and driving illegal to be kind of insulting.

I have only done it one time, and realized how stupid it was almost immediately.  To the point of only going about 200 feet, and then stopping, getting out and throwing my keys away (another mistake that was).

I wound up sleeping in the back of my truck, found my keys the next morning, hit up a Burger King and went home for a shower.

I have found that attitude to be the same across all of those other countries.  Drink but not to get drunk, and if you do have too much to drink, then you act like an adult, which we are supposed to be when we are allowed to drink, and either sleep it off or call a cab or a friend.

[Belsnickel]

(02-22-2016, 11:59 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I can only provide my own experience in this matter.

I have always found the need to make drinking and driving illegal to be kind of insulting.

I have only done it one time, and realized how stupid it was almost immediately.  To the point of only going about 200 feet, and then stopping, getting out and throwing my keys away (another mistake that was).

I wound up sleeping in the back of my truck, found my keys the next morning, hit up a Burger King and went home for a shower.

I have found that attitude to be the same across all of those other countries.  Drink but not to get drunk, and if you do have too much to drink, then you act like an adult, which we are supposed to be when we are allowed to drink, and either sleep it off or call a cab or a friend.

I've been of the opinion that we should lower the drinking age, and maybe up the driving age, and make it so you start drinking before you drive. I feel like starting off on your life with alcohol earlier will allow you to make better decisions with it. As it stands now, you've been driving 3-5 years before you've started (legally) drinking. You think "I've been driving for a while, I can handle it!" when in reality it is anything but the case.

That's just been my opinion on it for a few years. It's more about changing our culture's relationship with alcohol.

[fredtoast]

(02-22-2016, 11:59 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I can only provide my own experience in this matter.

Which means zero.

You have not posted anything to back up anyhting you said.

How many people have you personally seen killed by drunk drivers here in the United States?  Most people have never seen a single one.  But that does not mean it does not happen.  So what do you even mean byt your own experience?

So i really don't understand what you are trying to say at all.

[fredtoast]

http://www.koreanewsonline.com/road-dangers-surface-in-seoul/


South Korea, about 5,500 people die in vehicle related accidents yearly.

Kim Ki-bok of the Green Speed Campaign has been working on traffic safety for 30 years. While he sites the need for improvements in maintenance and infrastructure, he pinpoints the lack of political holding back road safety.

“Politicians and the government care about popularity and worry a lot about the potential backlash from the Korean people if they strengthen punishments for traffic law violations,” says Kim.

Kim’s struggling NGO and others that work vocally argue that stronger punishments will save lives, but Kim says such advice falls on deaf ears, “it’s not enough to persuade politicians and decision makers.”

Looking at more statistics concerning South Korea’s traffic safety record bears out Kim’s position. According to the South Korean Police Agency 8 million speeding tickets were given out in 2013. Drunk driving remains a huge problem, although some progress may be underway with the number of offenders caught declining from 430,000 in 2008 to 240,000 in 2012. However, repeat drunk-driving offenders show no decrease over the same period.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-21-2016, 03:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If it was legal to drink and drive and no one was required to have a drivers license I believe that traffic deaths would increase dramatically.  I think the number of innocent people killed would skyrocket.

What do you think?

(02-22-2016, 01:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Which means zero.

You have not posted anything to back up anyhting you said.

How many people have you personally seen killed by drunk drivers here in the United States?  Most people have never seen a single one.  But that does not mean it does not happen.  So what do you even mean byt your own experience?

So i really don't understand what you are trying to say at all.

Do you see the question there Fred?  Do you?

You are asking me what I THINK.  You aren't asking for truth or stats or anything that I would need to provide concrete evidence for.

You wanted my opinion.  I gave it.

When stating my own experience, I mean, by acknowledging that I have been to countries where drinking and driving is very possible, but for some reason, maybe Belsnickle is right about it might have to do with people drinking at a younger age, there aren't a lot of people that are getting drunk and driving.  I see them drinking, I don't see them driving afterward.  I see them driving, but I don't see them so drunk they can't stand.

So I don't think the laws would have any real effect on the amount of drinking and driving statistics in our country.  I COULD be wrong.  However, you COULD be wrong as well.

We both have an opinion that is opposite of each other.  Only one way to find out and that would be to be less strict on the laws and procedures for a length of time, to see how it would play out.

   Again, look at your question Fred.  You asked for my opinion, so I can at least draw from personal experience.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-21-2016, 03:53 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Well, considering that I have been to places where getting a license is as easy as getting a picture taken, no test needed and drinking is a favorite past time, I would have to disagree with you. 

It is actually very surprising how few automobile accidents that there were in these countries.

Now, before you get the wrong impression, these countries do have laws against drinking and driving, they also have a license program.  These programs just aren't enforced.  The laws aren't enforced.  I hailed a "cab" and the driver couldn't have been older than 12, but he did know how to drive.

Of course that is just what I think.  I am sure you will just call me a liar and ask for evidence on what you clearly meant to be an opinion.

(02-21-2016, 04:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What country was this?


I strongly disagree with you.  I think that people would be drinking and driving and killing people all obver the place if there were no laws against it.

(02-21-2016, 04:38 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: There were a few.

Korea has lax laws in regulating drivers.

Thailand has lax laws.

Uganda has very lax laws. (This is where the kid was)

I am told some of the other less talked about Muslim countries are pretty lax with their laws.

Like I said, they have the laws, but the laws aren't strictly enforced.

I don't know what the punishments are for violators, but the locals didn't seem to worry too much about them.

That is because you think people can't be trusted to govern themselves.

(02-22-2016, 01:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: http://www.koreanewsonline.com/road-dangers-surface-in-seoul/


South Korea, about 5,500 people die in vehicle related accidents yearly.

Kim Ki-bok of the Green Speed Campaign has been working on traffic safety for 30 years. While he sites the need for improvements in maintenance and infrastructure, he pinpoints the lack of political holding back road safety.

“Politicians and the government care about  popularity and worry a lot about the potential backlash from the Korean people if they strengthen punishments for traffic law violations,” says Kim.

Kim’s struggling NGO and others that work vocally argue that stronger punishments will save lives, but Kim says such advice falls on deaf ears, “it’s not enough to persuade politicians and decision makers.”

Looking at more statistics concerning South Korea’s traffic safety record bears out Kim’s position. According to the South Korean Police Agency 8 million speeding tickets were given out in 2013. Drunk driving remains a huge problem, although some progress may be underway with the number of offenders caught declining from 430,000 in 2008 to 240,000 in 2012. However, repeat drunk-driving offenders show no decrease over the same period.

Then Fred post an article backing up everything I have been saying.  

[fredtoast]

(02-22-2016, 02:01 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Then Fred post an article backing up everything I have been saying.  

I though your opinion was that there was nnot drunk driving problem in Korea because the people all governed themselves.


Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[*bfine32*]

(02-22-2016, 01:58 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote:

Do you see the question there Fred?  Do you?

You are asking me what I THINK.  You aren't asking for truth or stats or anything that I would need to provide concrete evidence for.

You wanted my opinion.  I gave it.

When stating my own experience, I mean, by acknowledging that I have been to countries where drinking and driving is very possible, but for some reason, maybe Belsnickle is right about it might have to do with people drinking at a younger age, there aren't a lot of people that are getting drunk and driving.  I see them drinking, I don't see them driving afterward.  I see them driving, but I don't see them so drunk they can't stand.

So I don't think the laws would have any real effect on the amount of drinking and driving statistics in our country.  I COULD be wrong.  However, you COULD be wrong as well.

We both have an opinion that is opposite of each other.  Only one way to find out and that would be to be less strict on the laws and procedures for a length of time, to see how it would play out.

   Again, look at your question Fred.  You asked for my opinion, so I can at least draw from personal experience.

Quit attacking Fred.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-21-2016, 03:53 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Well, considering that I have been to places where getting a license is as easy as getting a picture taken, no test needed and drinking is a favorite past time, I would have to disagree with you. 

It is actually very surprising how few automobile accidents that there were in these countries.

Now, before you get the wrong impression, these countries do have laws against drinking and driving, they also have a license program.  These programs just aren't enforced.  The laws aren't enforced.  I hailed a "cab" and the driver couldn't have been older than 12, but he did know how to drive.

Of course that is just what I think.  I am sure you will just call me a liar and ask for evidence on what you clearly meant to be an opinion.

(02-22-2016, 02:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I though your opinion was that there was nnot drunk driving problem in Korea because the people all governed themselves.


Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Few accidents.  Not zero accidents, Fred.

Of course to some people, most avoidable accidents are considered a problem.

However do you see a large amount of drunk driving deaths in Korea?

Trust me, Korea is one of the most dangerous places that I have ever driven (and I drove in both Iraq and Afghanistan).  You have utter chaos on the roads.  With all of the bars and clubs, you would think the number would be higher. 

Now, I will say this, in my post I did say automobile accidents, I should have continued and added "due to drunk driving".

If you don't want to take my word for it, feel free to hop a plane.  Take a Go Pro - and record the experience, upload and share.  

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-22-2016, 02:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Quit attacking Fred.

My appologies, I will put myself in the corner.

[fredtoast]

(02-22-2016, 06:09 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Few accidents.  Not zero accidents, Fred.

Of course to some people, most avoidable accidents are considered a problem.

However do you see a large amount of drunk driving deaths in Korea?

Trust me, Korea is one of the most dangerous places that I have ever driven (and I drove in both Iraq and Afghanistan).  You have utter chaos on the roads.  With all of the bars and clubs, you would think the number would be higher. 

Now, I will say this, in my post I did say automobile accidents, I should have continued and added "due to drunk driving".

If you don't want to take my word for it, feel free to hop a plane.  Take a Go Pro - and record the experience, upload and share.  

Anecdotal evidence like this is useless.  I have not seen an accident cause by drunk drivers in many many years.  What kind of rube would believe this means there have been none in the United States for many many years.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-21-2016, 03:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If it was legal to drink and drive and no one was required to have a drivers license I believe that traffic deaths would increase dramatically.  I think the number of innocent people killed would skyrocket.

What do you think?

(02-23-2016, 10:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Anecdotal evidence like this is useless.  I have not seen an accident cause by drunk drivers in many many years.  What kind of rube would believe this means there have been none in the United States for many many years.

Must not have seen the question.  Fred do you see your question?  Do you?  You are asking me what I think.

So anecdotal evidence like this is allowed, since it is based off of my own experiences.  When you ask people what they think, you are asking them for their opinion. 

The ironic part in this is.  You say anecdotal evidence like this is useless.  Then go on to say that YOU have not seen an accident cause by drunk driving in many years.  Basically you are throwing out my anecdotal evidence and replacing it with your own.  

[fredtoast]

(02-23-2016, 11:08 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: The ironic part in this is.  You say anecdotal evidence like this is useless.  Then go on to say that YOU have not seen an accident cause by drunk driving in many years.  Basically you are throwing out my anecdotal evidence and replacing it with your own.  

No.  I am using my anecdotal evidence to show how stupid it is to rely on anecdotal evidence.

[fredtoast]

(02-23-2016, 11:08 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote:

Must not have seen the question.  Fred do you see your question?  Do you?  You are asking me what I think.

So anecdotal evidence like this is allowed, since it is based off of my own experiences.  When you ask people what they think, you are asking them for their opinion. 

It is possible to have an opinion based on facts and research instead of just anecdotal evidence.

But I am starting to understand where you come upo with your crazy ideas.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-23-2016, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is possible to have an opinion based on facts and research instead of just anecdotal evidence.

But I am starting to understand where you come upo with your crazy ideas.

Is that what you think you have?

An opinion based on fact?

So let's recap.

You asked me if I think the laws and licensing have an effect on our drunk driving deaths.

I said no.  I provided my own experiences (because it is my opinion).

You even provided an article about S. Korea that actually strengthened my stance.

All the while you keep stating that you have never seen a drunk driving accident, which isn't even pertinent to the question, but I assume that you are thinking (correct if I am wrong) that because you haven't seen one that means the laws are working.

You think the laws are preventing more deaths than what we have now.

You then have stated that I can't use my own anecdotal evidence, all the while using your own.

Yet to finish, I am the one that has crazy ideas.

OK Fred.  Time for the clap.

 

[fredtoast]

(02-23-2016, 11:35 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: All the while you keep stating that you have never seen a drunk driving accident, which isn't even pertinent to the question, but I assume that you are thinking (correct if I am wrong) that because you haven't seen one that means the laws are working.

(02-23-2016, 10:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have not seen an accident cause by drunk drivers in many many years.  What kind of rube would assume this means there have been none in the United States for many many years.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-22-2016, 11:59 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I can only provide my own experience in this matter.

I have always found the need to make drinking and driving illegal to be kind of insulting.

I have only done it one time, and realized how stupid it was almost immediately.  To the point of only going about 200 feet, and then stopping, getting out and throwing my keys away (another mistake that was).

I wound up sleeping in the back of my truck, found my keys the next morning, hit up a Burger King and went home for a shower.

I have found that attitude to be the same across all of those other countries.  Drink but not to get drunk, and if you do have too much to drink, then you act like an adult, which we are supposed to be when we are allowed to drink, and either sleep it off or call a cab or a friend.

A lot of people don't drink and drive.  Especially now.  But a lot do.    I did.  All of the time up until the day before I quit drinking 25 years ago.  People are going to make occasional dumb decisions, and alcoholics will constantly make dumb decisions.