Merkel wants to ban the Burqa..

[SunsetBengal]

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/06/eyeing-coming-election-germanys-merkel-announces-burqa-ban-policy/

I can hardly believe that this story has been out all day, and none of the P&R regulars have touched it. After reading all of the stories of Muslim immigrant related violence and sexual assaults in Germany, for the past year or so, I would say that it is about time that their leader took some action.

Now, most of you P&R regulars are much more well educated in terms of World affairs than I. So I ask you, what do you think of this move?

[Benton]

Well, we aren't having a half dozen daily posts on what's going on in Europe any more, so I hadn't heard about it.

Personally, I'm not a fan of restricting someone's right to practice religion. If your religion requires you to sport a bindi or burqa, or requires that you don't cut your hair or wear makeup, then that's up to you.

That said, two things.

First, the burqa isn't required for many (most?) adherents, but there are a few of the more conservative sects where it is. I think the issue is more the few locations where immigrants come from which do require women in public to wear hijabs, burqas, or in the case of Iran and several other countries, head scarves. So, if it's not a religious requirement and more of a regional tradition, I wouldn't say it's protected.

Two, even if it is a religious item, that doesn't mean you have free access to practice your religion anywhere, any time. Same with freedom of speech, you can say what you want, but you still can't yell 'fire!' in a theater. So, if Muslims are adherents to sects requiring it, that's fine, but I see no issue with countries banning that freedom of religion in some places... like schools or public buildings or airports.

[*bfine32*]

(12-06-2016, 07:07 PM)Benton Wrote: Well, we aren't having a half dozen daily posts on what's going on in Europe any more, so I hadn't heard about it.

No doubt, but we cut those off at the source. Half a dozen daily on one subject does does seem like quite a bit of overkill.

As to the OP: Nothing wrong with requiring assimilation.

[Belsnickel]

So the thing about this to me is how much of a mountain this has become when in reality it is a mole-hill, if that. Essentially, niqab/burqa bans have become a symbol. They are a way for politicians to make it appear they are listening to their people and doing something without actually doing anything. The percentage of Muslim immigrants wearing either is truly immaterial and making the argument that it is about integration into society doesn't hold much water when you are talking about the pork and beer loving culture of Germany.

All of that being said, I have no issue with niqab/burqa bans because I have no issue with mask laws in general. There is little solid evidence to support the religious argument for either covering, which is why only the hardliners wear them and they show up in such small percentages. I just find it funny that anyone thinks this will do anything other than cause controversy.

[SunsetBengal]

Good stuff, thanks for the opinions. Now, let me ask another question. Do you think this is just Merkel throwing a "bone" to the voting base of Germany, which (according to some various things that I've read) is becoming increasingly dissatisfied with her? She did recently announce plans to seek reelection. Also, despite the recent vote down of the Right (very extremist Right) party in Austria, there have been movements against the Left in France, Italy, and by now we're all quite familiar with the Brexit referendum.

[hollodero]

(12-06-2016, 06:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Now, most of you P&R regulars are much more well educated in terms of World affairs than I.  So I ask you, what do you think of this move?

Hardly a topic I'm so torn on.

Burkas disgust me personally, they are a symbol of oppression, a symbol of distinction, a symbol of religious fundamentalism.

On the other hand... it's tough to claim you "free" women of their burden by determining what clothes they can or cannot wear. Whilst most women probably have no say when wearing a Burka, there might be the occasional one who actually wants to wear it... and her freedom to dress as she pleases would be restricted then.
We believe in freedom, we believe in personal responsibility. If we want to "free" women by banning Burkas, we just assume or acknowledge that the islamic woman, even when living in our countries, is not "responsible" and has to be protected by the law. We incapacitate them because of her beliefs, and I don't feel easy about that.
Plus, a ban might actually  be unconstitutional in many countries.

So in the end... I am against Burkas and against banning Burkas I guess.

(12-06-2016, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Good stuff, thanks for the opinions.  Now, let me ask another question.  Do you think this is just Merkel throwing a "bone" to the voting base of Germany, which (according to some various things that I've read) is becoming increasingly dissatisfied  with her?

Yes.

[Belsnickel]

(12-06-2016, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Good stuff, thanks for the opinions. Now, let me ask another question. Do you think this is just Merkel throwing a "bone" to the voting base of Germany, which (according to some various things that I've read) is becoming increasingly dissatisfied with her? She did recently announce plans to seek reelection. Also, despite the recent vote down of the Right (very extremist Right) party in Austria, there have been movements against the Left in France, Italy, and by now we're all quite familiar with the Brexit referendum.

There is no doubt she is pandering to the people of Germany. It should be noted, however, that she isn't likely to lose power from what I have seen. With her being reelected to the chair of the CDU, and the CDU/CSU coalition likely holding power she will remain. The most recent polls have her at 59% favorability, IIRC. That's better than anyone in our most recent election.

[BmorePat87]

(12-06-2016, 07:07 PM)Benton Wrote: . Same with freedom of speech, you can say what you want, but you still can't yell 'fire!' in a theater. 

It's not illegal to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Me busting your balls aside, your point about freedoms not being pure or unrestricted is still true. If Germany's constitution allows for a selected ban on burqas then they are well within their right to do this. What Matt said aligns with a BBC article I read (Sorry Breitbart, I'm #TeamKelloggs). Very few wear one and this is more of a pandering move for her to prevent a loss in the next elections.

I can see the argument for banning burqas or niqabs, and the same argument would go with a ski mask. I see an issue with someone suggesting a hijab ban and I wouldn't understand the reasoning for that ban.

I don't know how this fights back against violence, though. 

[BmorePat87]

(12-06-2016, 07:49 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: There is no doubt she is pandering to the people of Germany. It should be noted, however, that she isn't likely to lose power from what I have seen. With her being reelected to the chair of the CDU, and the CDU/CSU coalition likely holding power she will remain. The most recent polls have her at 59% favorability, IIRC. That's better than anyone in our most recent election.

I think the BBC article I read had the far right group polling at 12%.

[Belsnickel]

(12-06-2016, 07:52 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I think the BBC article I read had the far right group polling at 12%.

AfD had been shooting themselves in the foot there for a while and there was almost an internal split. It was interesting political theater.

[Benton]

(12-06-2016, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Good stuff, thanks for the opinions.  Now, let me ask another question.  Do you think this is just Merkel throwing a "bone" to the voting base of Germany, which (according to some various things that I've read) is becoming increasingly dissatisfied  with her?  She did recently announce plans to seek reelection.  Also, despite the recent vote down of the Right (very extremist Right) party in Austria, there have been movements against the Left in France, Italy, and by now we're all quite familiar with the Brexit referendum.

can't sat if its pandering if there isn't a significant portion if votes she's hoping to get. Dont know how many people consider this a priority issue there. But, most likely, yes.

[SunsetBengal]

Again, I appreciate the opinions, as I certainly trust those who have responded. However, I'm going to do something that I rarely do, and refrain from further comment today. You see, I had a rain day today, and I have been drinking a bit. I want to continue this thread, and I do have a few more questions that I would like to ask. I likely won't be adding anymore input, until tomorrow evening. My day will be slogging around on muddy hillsides, ensuring that developers know exactly where to place erosion control measures, so that they can continue to build a new section of a neighborhood, as well as letting the construction superintendent know that he is going to have to make a 19 foot cut, to get his primary road to the elevation that the engineers have designed...

[Dill]

(12-06-2016, 06:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/06/eyeing-coming-election-germanys-merkel-announces-burqa-ban-policy/

I can hardly believe that this story has been out all day, and none of the P&R regulars have touched it.  After reading all of the stories of Muslim immigrant related violence and sexual assaults in Germany, for the past year or so, I would say that it is about time that their leader took some action.

Now, most of you P&R regulars are much more well educated in terms of World affairs than I.  So I ask you, what do you think of this move?

I would double-check every report you read of immigrant related violence in Germany. Remember there are right wing media in Europe, too.

Anyway, the ban will  only apply to places where it interferes with business, like schools and hospitals. And the ban will apply to motorcycle helmets and balaclavas as well.

There was already a debate about this in France, where the Burka is banned in public--a much harsher law. Women are fined 150 Euros for wearing one. If anyone forces someone to wear a Burka, the fine could reach 60,000 Euros and one year in jail. These people are going to learn them some freedom whether they like it or not.

What would happen if Germany made it clear to people applying for asylum that the Burka would be a problem, then let them choose?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-06-2016, 06:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/12/06/eyeing-coming-election-germanys-merkel-announces-burqa-ban-policy/

I can hardly believe that this story has been out all day, and none of the P&R regulars have touched it.  After reading all of the stories of Muslim immigrant related violence and sexual assaults in Germany, for the past year or so, I would say that it is about time that their leader took some action.

Now, most of you P&R regulars are much more well educated in terms of World affairs than I.  So I ask you, what do you think of this move?

How will a burqa ban reduce "Muslim immigrant related violence and sexual assaults in Germany"?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-06-2016, 07:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt, but we cut those off at the source. Half a dozen daily on one subject does does seem like quite a bit of overkill.

As to the OP: Nothing wrong with requiring assimilation.

Where's your war bonnet?

[hollodero]

(12-07-2016, 12:52 AM)Dill Wrote: I would double-check every report you read of immigrant related violence in Germany. Remember there are right wing media in Europe, too.

Yeah, no shit. See here, albeit it's in German. These are just fake stories about refugees (where it's actually proven that they are fake, with sources), almost all from last year or this year. Quite an impressive density here, and again these are just the confirmed ones.

Btw. Breitbart comes to Germany!
(Although I admit, although they are heavily biased, vastly unbalanced, still as far as I saw they don't report completely invented stories like some of the other "truth" sites out there do.)

(12-07-2016, 12:52 AM)Dill Wrote: Anyway, the ban will  only apply to places where it interferes with business, like schools and hospitals. And the ban will apply to motorcycle helmets and balaclavas as well.

That is also true. So actually not that big of a deal and more a symbolic gesture.
Banning Burkas completely would be unconstitutional in Germany (at least that's what their minister for internal affairs says).

(12-07-2016, 12:52 AM)Dill Wrote: What would happen if Germany made it clear to people applying for asylum that the Burka would be a problem, then let them choose?

Dingdingding!!! Jackpot. Proposed that for years. Giving refugees a comprehensive heads up how our society works and that our values are not to be questioned, that is. We severely lack these efforts.

[Millhouse]

Good for her and other countries that want to impose this sort of ban.

[Mike M (the other one)]

I am for it. People freak out when they see women wearing them and get rude with the women.
Do as you want in your own home and at your mosque. When in Public, you are not allowed to wear a Burka or a Niqab. Your face needs to be clearly visible.
For example, if a woman wearing a Burka walks into a bank and wants to make a withdrawal. When I look at her picture ID, how do I know the person under the burka is the person in the picture? I don't, so I'm not going to give you the money unless you show your face.

Seriously though, ISIS itself has banned the wearing of the burqa anywhere near it's command centers, citing security reasons.

She's pandering. People are frustrated over there right now. Didn't a daughter of a prominent EU official just get raped and killed in the last week? Maria Ladenburger or something like that. It's still happening, they just are reporting it in a PC way. Just like we do here on Black on White Crime. We don't tell you that, we just use their names and it goes in a foot note on the page, how ever when it is a White on Black crime it's all over the news for days.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-07-2016, 05:39 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I am for it. People freak out when they see women wearing them and get rude with the women.
Do as you want in your own home and at your mosque. When in Public, you are not allowed to wear a Burka or a Niqab. Your face needs to be clearly visible.
For example, if a woman wearing a Burka walks into a bank and wants to make a withdrawal. When I look at her picture ID, how do I know the person under the burka is the person in the picture? I don't, so I'm not going to give you the money unless you show your face.

Seriously though, ISIS itself has banned the wearing of the burqa anywhere near it's command centers, citing security reasons.

She's pandering. People are frustrated over there right now. Didn't a daughter of a prominent EU official just get raped and killed in the last week? Maria Ladenburger or something like that. It's still happening, they just are reporting it in a PC way. Just like we do here on Black on White Crime. We don't tell you that, we just use their names and it goes in a foot note on the page, how ever when it is a White on Black crime it's all over the news for days.

In your experience, how many times have you witnessed a person freaking out when they saw someone wearing a burqa or was rude to them?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

It's about time we had some god damn burqa control laws.