Minimum wage debate

[BmorePat87]

(03-04-2019, 02:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Hmm, maybe it's just me but the less I've gotten paid the less time I've had to futz about and not be working.  Low wage jobs I've had have been very "do this...make this...keep doing/making" and the higher wage jobs involve me sporadically using specific skills whilst posting on here during down-time.

It's 100% true. 

Though I will say that there are retailers who do not care what their employees are doing. That was NEVER my experience at Best Buy. You were in deep shit if you were caught on your phone, but Walmart doesn't give any ***** what their employees do. 

Which makes me feel bad for the employees who work hard there as 5 others just walk around talking or face timing while working a register. It may be that they honestly do not know how to find another job that would appreciate their hard work.

[*Nately120*]

(03-04-2019, 03:00 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: It's 100% true. 

Though I will say that there are retailers who do not care what their employees are doing. That was NEVER my experience at Best Buy. You were in deep shit if you were caught on your phone, but Walmart doesn't give any ***** what their employees do. 

Which makes me feel bad for the employees who work hard there as 5 others just walk around talking or face timing while working a register. It may be that they honestly do not know how to find another job that would appreciate their hard work.

The last time I had a "do this over and over again" sort of job cell phones weren't a thing or were just flip phones, and so on.  I will say, you reminded me that one of the things I don't miss about low-end jobs I've had is having to work harder because co-workers weren't pulling their weight.  That is one of the biggest motivating factors to getting a more skilled job where you aren't working within a pool of employees, so to speak.

[GMDino]

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-has-grown-90-times-faster-than-typical-worker-pay-since-1978/

Quote:CEO Pay Has Grown 90 Times Faster than Typical Worker Pay Since 1978
Economic Snapshot • By Lawrence Mishel and Alyssa Davis • July 1, 2015

[/url][url=https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-has-grown-90-times-faster-than-typical-worker-pay-since-1978/#]

Over the last several decades, inflation-adjusted CEO compensation increased from $1.5 million in 1978 to $16.3 million in 2014, or 997 percent, a rise almost double stock market growth. Over the same time period, a typical worker’s wages grew very little: the annual compensation, adjusted for inflation, of the average private-sector production and nonsupervisory worker (comprising 82 percent of total payroll employment) rose from $48,000 in 1978 to just $53,200 in 2014, an increase of only 10.9 percent. Due to this unequal growth, average top CEOs now make over 300 times what typical workers earn.

CEO pay is up 997% since 1978Percent change in CEO compensation, stock prices, and typical worker compensation, 1978-2014



Source: Economic Policy Institute analysis of data from Compustat's ExecuComp database, Federal Reserve Economic Data (FRED) from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, the Current Employment Statistics program, and the Bureau of Economic Analysis NIPA tables, as seen in Top CEOs Make 300 Times More than Typical Workers.

Four year old numbers.  Not sure it's gotten any better.  Also I only did a cursory search of the site to see if they were too biased or not.

[Beaker]

Corporations are making record profits?

I wish there was a way I could get a piece of that. Oh wait...

[Benton]

(03-04-2019, 11:41 AM)michaelsean Wrote: The only thing I said is you didn't provide a good argument.  Nobody is going to say, "Well if prices go up anyway that's good enough for me.  If a Big Mac was going to go to $4.00 what does it matter if it goes to $7?"

The issue is what the market will bear.

In this example, people won't pay $7 for a big Mac. But they'll pay 4.10. and in a couple years they'll pay 4.25. and in a couple more, 435. Etc etc.

That cost,along with wage increases,are factored into small, regular prices increases over the long-term. Because the market won't bear jumping from 4 to 7. So they raise it even if it doesn't need raising now, but because they know it will need it in the future.

The flaw here is that there haven't been those mechanisms that increase wages. Like either a strong economy with a surplus of high wage jobs or increased mandatory wages.

The short of it: businesses know it's going to happen, that's why you keep paying more.

[*bfine32*]

It's a double edged sword. We want workers to get more money, employers want to make more profit. I feel we will price ourselves out of jobs.

For instance I go to Walmart now I become a cashier when it's time for me to leave. I feel fast food will go the way of Japan. They have a machine outside, you pay, get a ticket, take it to the cook, and take a seat.

I have a worker who insists on mailing everything (bills, ect...) he refuses to do online because the "mailman needs a job too". He does all his banking at the bank because of the same principle. How many of us are willing to do that.

IMO we need to stop looking to pay the fry cook $15/hr and develop a job for him/her worth $15/hr. A machine is not going to fix my plumbing.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-04-2019, 07:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's a double edged sword. We want workers to get more money, employers want to make more profit. I feel we will price ourselves out of jobs.

For instance I go to Walmart now I become a cashier when it's time for me to leave. I feel fast food will go the way of Japan. They have a machine outside, you pay, get a ticket, take it to the cook, and take a seat.

I have a worker who insists on mailing everything (bills, ect...) he refuses to do online because the "mailman needs a job too". He does all his banking at the bank because of the same principle. How many of us are willing to do that.

IMO we need to stop looking to pay the fry cook $15/hr and develop a job for him/her worth $15/hr. A machine is not going to fix my plumbing.

That is a good point, and one that has been brought up several times in the past few years.  There IS a serious need for skilled tradesmen in the US, and those jobs DO pay.  Even the "learning" wage is better than most dead-end type of jobs, though the work usually doesn't allow for much smart phone leisure time..

[Benton]

(03-04-2019, 07:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is a good point, and one that has been brought up several times in the past few years.  There IS a serious need for skilled tradesmen in the US, and those jobs DO pay.  Even the "learning" wage is better than most dead-end type of jobs, though the work usually doesn't allow for much smart phone leisure time..

The problem is, there's also a lot of jobs in need of people, but they've been locked at a low wage. My brother was a paramedic that got paid about $16 an hour. He was an EMT before, making about $11. There are more examples in the healthcare field, which is crazy when you think about paying g thousands for a medical visit, but the people working there may be making less than $20 an hour.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-04-2019, 08:30 PM)Benton Wrote: The problem is, there's also a lot of jobs in need of people, but they've been locked at a low wage. My brother was a paramedic that got paid about $16 an hour. He was an EMT before, making about $11. There are more examples in the healthcare field, which is crazy when you think about paying g thousands for a medical visit, but the people working there may be making less than $20 an hour.

I get it, there are some professions that just don't pay nearly what they are worth.  I discovered the example that you just mentioned, when I used to serve as a volunteer fire fighter.

However, some trades are in such serious need that there are programs paying tuition, and giving job placement for apprenticeship, while going to night school.  My brother-in-law, up in Ohio, found one of those programs.  He's working/studying HVAC.  Job started at $14.50/hr with full insurance after 90 days, plus paid tuition to Lima Technical College.  He's still with it, a year later, and has gotten two raises along the way.

That is just one example, for sure.  The program he stumbled on had about 5 options, and HVAC was the one that appealed to him, most.

[BmorePat87]

(03-04-2019, 07:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's a double edged sword. We want workers to get more money, employers want to make more profit. I feel we will price ourselves out of jobs.

For instance I go to Walmart now I become a cashier when it's time for me to leave. I feel fast food will go the way of Japan. They have a machine outside, you pay, get a ticket, take it to the cook, and take a seat.

McDonalds is already moving towards kiosks to order food and a local chains Royal Farms and Wawa having been doing it for years. 

Quote:I have a worker who insists on mailing everything (bills, ect...) he refuses to do online because the "mailman needs a job too". He does all his banking at the bank because of the same principle. How many of us are willing to do that.


IMO we need to stop looking to pay the fry cook $15/hr and develop a job for him/her worth $15/hr. A machine is not going to fix my plumbing.

the problem is schools began to teach kids to go to college and threw out all of the trade instruction. Now we need more people working trades and working in technical areas not covered by college, and schools have to catch back up and reintroduce these programs. 

I read a story about one school that had turned its shop room into storage. Then a local business donated their old 3D printer and they reintroduced shop as a class geared towards teaching this new form of technology. Doesn't have to just be newer fields, it could be the forgotten fields too. My mom's yearbook had HVAC, auto, and refrigeration teachers. Why shouldn't we still have those?

We're trying to promote apprenticeships more at my school, but the damn state and county still emphasize college over career, even though are standards are "career and college readiness standards", so it can be hard getting kids into programs while still meeting this standards. 

[*michaelsean*]

(03-04-2019, 09:23 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: McDonalds is already moving towards kiosks to order food and a local chains Royal Farms and Wawa having been doing it for years. 





the problem is schools began to teach kids to go to college and threw out all of the trade instruction. Now we need more people working trades and working in technical areas not covered by college, and schools have to catch back up and reintroduce these programs. 

I read a story about one school that had turned its shop room into storage. Then a local business donated their old 3D printer and they reintroduced shop as a class geared towards teaching this new form of technology. Doesn't have to just be newer fields, it could be the forgotten fields too. My mom's yearbook had HVAC, auto, and refrigeration teachers. Why shouldn't we still have those?

We're trying to promote apprenticeships more at my school, but the damn state and county still emphasize college over career, even though are standards are "career and college readiness standards", so it can be hard getting kids into programs while still meeting this standards. 

You know “not in my backyard”? Well I think it’s a great idea to start encouraging kids to look at trades instead of college. Except my kids. Then it doesn’t seem like a great idea.

[Beaker]

(03-04-2019, 10:26 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You know “not in my backyard”?  Well I think it’s a great idea to start encouraging kids to look at trades instead of college. Except my kids. Then it doesn’t seem like a great idea.

I dont know why not. Trades such as plumbing, electricians, HVAC, etc are paying very good wages....and are in dire need of skilled tradesmen.

[Au165]

I said this a while back and people fought with me about it, mainly that tech "can't" replace all these things. Computers, machines, etc are about to replace a huge amount of unskilled labor in the next decade. Self driving cars coming will impact taxis (Uber), trucking, delivery, etc. Kiosks eliminating cashiers, fast foot workers, retail jobs. Continued improvements and cost reductions on machinery will continue to hit manufacturing through more automation.

The reality is technology is, and has always been, the biggest threat to "American jobs". This idea is foreign and many will hate it, but those in the tech sector know it's coming, there will have to be a tax on companies who use technology to replace workers in some shape down the road. It'll have to be tough enough to make them think twice before removing the human, but manageable enough not to stifle innovation. That tax will then have to be used to prop up displaced workers through retraining and education

I think as a country we need to get out in front of this now. I have heard about "moonshot" ideas a lot lately, but I think the biggest one we should focus on is free job training. I'm not saying free college because I think this is a misguided attempt to solve a problem that we have created that isn't real. Everyone doesn't need to go to college, everyone should however have an opportunity to be trained in some sort of skilled labor. I'd like to see all trades school, as well as some tech based jobs, be 100% free to pursue.

Any major shift in minimum wage needs to be accompanied with a plan to help get those people out of minimum wage jobs or else we are just kicking the same can down the road.

[GMDino]

(03-05-2019, 01:05 AM)Beaker Wrote: I dont know why not. Trades such as plumbing, electricians, HVAC, etc are paying very good wages....and are in dire need of skilled tradesmen.

Our daughter went to their schools career center and got a job right out of high school.  Her fiance went into the national guard and got trained in a trade that he works in now.

I am all for trade schools.  College is not for everybody.

But it should be AVAILABLE to everybody.  Some don't realize that they weren't cut out for a job that requires a masters.

[BmorePat87]

One of the issues right now is that there are a lot of for profit trade schools that are poor investments are do not prepare you for anything beyond a $15 an hour job. Some are only interesting in getting you qualified for a loan and taking your tuition, with little regard for how you do after that.

I was recruited by one to be a "recruiter". At the time I was working at best buy and I saw all of these geek squad agents on their wall of graduates. I knew it was a scam after that. Anyone without education can join best buy and become a geek squad agent after a year in computers. It doesn't pay that much more.

unfortunately those for profit schools are being revived by Devos and the Trump administration.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-05-2019, 11:42 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: One of the issues right now is that there are a lot of for profit trade schools that are poor investments are do not prepare you for anything beyond a $15 an hour job. Some are only interesting in getting you qualified for a loan and  taking your tuition, with little regard for how you do after that.

I was recruited by one to be a "recruiter". At the time I was working at best buy and I saw all of these geek squad agents on their wall of graduates. I knew it was a scam after that. Anyone without education can join best buy and become a geek squad agent after a year in computers. It doesn't pay that much more.

unfortunately those for profit schools are being revived by Devos and the Trump administration.

I guess look no further than ITT.  

[BmorePat87]

(03-05-2019, 12:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I guess look no further than ITT.  

That's who it was that was trying to hire me lol

[*michaelsean*]

(03-05-2019, 12:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's who it was that was trying to hire me lol

That place was literally wiped out in a day.  There was one close to me, and the day after I read about them no longer qualifying for government student  loans, it was shut down.  

[BmorePat87]

(03-05-2019, 02:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: That place was literally wiped out in a day.  There was one close to me, and the day after I read about them no longer qualifying for government student  loans, it was shut down.  

My job would have been to find interested candidates and find out which of their friends and family members would be interested too. Then you get them linked up with a loan specialist. Scam.

[fredtoast]

(03-05-2019, 10:04 AM)Au165 Wrote: I said this a while back and people fought with me about it, mainly that tech "can't" replace all these things. Computers, machines, etc are about to replace a huge amount of unskilled labor in the next decade. Self driving cars coming will impact taxis (Uber), trucking, delivery, etc. Kiosks eliminating cashiers, fast foot workers, retail jobs. Continued improvements and cost reductions on machinery will continue to hit manufacturing through more automation.

The reality is technology is, and has always been, the biggest threat to "American jobs". This idea is foreign and many will hate it, but those in the tech sector know it's coming,

Rep.

Technology is coming to take jobs even if we keep wages low.

And we may need more plumbers and electricians, but not on the scale of people who will lose jobs to robots and computers.