More "largely peaceful" Portland protests

[GMDino]

(08-28-2020, 09:58 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Incorrect.  By definition that is impossible.
 

It's not how I want to define it, it's how the English language defines it.
 
 
Actually, by his own statements he came to defend others.  Or are you saying you have a unique insight into his mind?  Glad to see you're on the "he shouldn't have been charged" side of the fence.



Do you condemn the rioters for attacking him and causing the situation?



Of course the flip side of that argument is that if no one had been rioting, looting and burning this wouldn't have happened.


You sound more bitter than sad.  But I do agree the entire scenario is sad.

Here's an idea:

Take a gun to a neighboring state.  Tell the police, when they thank you for being there to help them, that you are going to defend a random building.  Then when someone else who is legally carrying a weapon asks what you are doing argue with them and shoot them.

Or go inside a bank to help the security guards and do the same.

The guy was looking for trouble and found it then cried self defense.  Just like all the other cowards who play cop and end up scared and kill someone because they are actually prepared to do the job.

In this case I am sad.  Sad for the kid who went down that path, sad that we live in a country where there is a path that says carrying a gun makes you tough and sad that people are defending him as if he did nothing wrong other than be attacked when he put himself in that spot because he wanted to "defend" something.  The only way to defend something is if it is being attacked.

[Dill]

(08-28-2020, 11:29 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: *As far as thriving off of one income, I think people were much happier with less in those days.  Most houses had one car and one TV, that was it.

We have:  4 smart phones, 4 TV's, 3 cars, satellite, 5 laptops, internet bills, I lost count of how many video game systems, etc.  We also eat out a lot more than they did back then too.

If families (mine included) were willing to live the "good life of the 50's" then we might be able to get by on one income. Then again, a lot of those technology bills are made essential by jobs too.

LOL I actually do remember "the good life" back in the '50s, with one car and one tv. One phone per house.  First phone  I remember had a crank. You told an operator  whom you wanted to speak to. Ike was pres. The washing machine had a crank and rollers. No one had dryers.



Black people weren't happier, though.

[GMDino]

(08-29-2020, 09:23 AM)Dill Wrote: LOL I actually do remember "the good life" back in the '50s, with one car and one tv. One phone per house.  First phone  I remember had a crank. You told an operator  whom you wanted to speak to. Ike was pres. The washing machine had a crank and rollers. No one had dryers.



Black people weren't happier, though.

And the tax rates on businesses and high income earners were higher.  And unions fought for fair wages.  And companies made profits but didn't flee the country to make more by paying everyone less.

Ah, the good old days.

[Dill]

(08-29-2020, 09:26 AM)GMDino Wrote: And the tax rates on businesses and high income earners were higher.  And unions fought for fair wages.  And companies made profits but didn't flee the country to make more by paying everyone less.

Ah, the good old days.

We had more unions, more unionized workers.

You just mentioned two factors that explain why the wealth gap has grown.

[GMDino]

(08-29-2020, 09:28 AM)Dill Wrote: We had more unions, more unionized workers.

You just mentioned two factors that explain why the wealth gap has grown.

Yep.  I'm old enough to remember what Reagan and the Republicans did to our country and our people.

[GMDino]

Protests about police brutality and treatment of minorities?

Whew!  Better change the laws to punish the protesters more harshly then!

Wait...what?

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/27/black-lives-matter-protesters-terrorism-felony-charges/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=theintercept

Quote:PROTESTERS IN MULTIPLE STATES ARE FACING FELONY CHARGES, INCLUDING TERRORISM
Some states have recently increased the severity of criminal penalties for protesters along political lines.

Akela Lacy

August 27 2020, 5:33 p.m.

PROSECUTORS AND LAWMAKERS in several states have responded to mass protests against police brutality by charging demonstrators with committing felonies, including terrorism charges. The trend of criminalizing protest has been on the uptick since the 2016 protests against the Dakota Access pipeline at Standing Rock, during and after which numerous states upped charges for protests “near critical infrastructure” as felonies. 
Since 2016, 14 states have enacted new laws to restrict the right to peaceful assembly, according to the International Center for Not-for-Profit Law, which tracks related state and federal legislation. But in the wake of the nationwide movement in support of Black lives, numerous states have increased the severity of criminal penalties for protesters along political lines and are prosecuting them more aggressively, as demonstrations continue with no sign of slowing down. 

Just last week, following more than 60 days of demonstrations outside the State Capitol, Tennessee Republican Gov. Bill Lee signed a law that made it a felony to participate in some types of protests, including camping out overnight on state property. Charges for the same activity were previously classified as a misdemeanor. In Tennessee, people convicted of felonies lose their voting rights — making the new law a tool for disenfranchisement. 

Earlier this month, police in Muscatine, Iowa, apprehended two people they say were attempting to drive a vehicle into the city Public Safety Building and got stuck on a planter. They charged both men with numerous counts, including terrorism. That follows an Oklahoma district attorney’s pursuit of terrorism charges against five young people, including three teenagers and two people in their 20s. The fourth-term prosecutor also threw felony charges at numerous other people in relation to protests and damage to local and police property in late May. 
The terrorism charges reveal a “false equivalency between people who kill, and people who commit acts of property damage,” said Kate Chatfield, policy director at the Justice Collaborative, a policy and media organization focused on mass criminalization and incarceration. “Maybe not a great thing.” 

“To say that the power of the state will be wielded in this way against political enemies is incredibly frightening,” Chatfield said, drawing a parallel to the post-9/11 era, when many people who had never committed an act of violence were prosecuted for terrorism. “Let’s not ignore the fact that we have a history of this in this country. A very recent history. And a continuing history, unfortunately.”

The nationwide protests prompted by George Floyd’s killing have continued through the summer, though at a lower intensity over the last month — before picking back up this week. Streets across the country swelled with demonstrators after police in Kenosha, Wisconsin, shot 29-year-old Jacob Blake in the back seven times, in front of his children. Blake is paralyzed from the waist down, his father told the Chicago Sun-Times on Tuesday. 
Protesters burned down a state Department of Corrections building on Monday. The following night, armed white members of a militia group organized counterdemonstrations to protect local property. Video footage from Kenosha shows the militia members chatting with the police. Shortly after the video was captured, one member of the militia shot and killed two protesters, and left a third in serious condition. Police arrested 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse in Illinois on Wednesday and charged him with first-degree intentional homicide. 

“When you hear our president talk about Black Lives Matter as a terrorist organization, or antifa as a terrorist organization, it is the kind of thing that — his statement holds no weight in law, but it sends a message to prosecutors like this that they’ll be supported,” said Thomas Harvey, justice project director at the Advancement Project, a non-profit civil rights group. “And even more frighteningly, I think it sends a message to people like the militia members we saw in Kenosha, and gives them the state and the latitude to commit even more violence than what we see on a daily basis in this country against black and brown folks.”

IN SOME STATES where police have charged protesters en masse with felonies, prosecutors have swiftly dropped them, calling into question the reasoning behind the original charges. 

In Louisville, Kentucky, police arrested 87 protesters who had staged a sit-in on the lawn of a home belonging to state Attorney General Daniel Cameron last month — part of an ongoing  call for accountability in the killing of Breonna Taylor, the 26-year-old EMT whom three Louisville police officers shot at least eight times inside her home in March. (The officers were acting on a no-knock warrant in connection with a suspect who did not live at Taylor’s residence. The police department fired one of the three officers who were involved in June. Local activists including Louisville Black Lives Matter worked with Taylor’s family to develop a list of demands, including firing, charging, and convicting the three officers.) Three days later, Jefferson County Attorney Mike O’Connell dismissed the felony charges and said his office would consider misdemeanors and other violations for prosecution at a later date. On Tuesday, Louisville police arrested another 68 protesters and charged them with obstructing a highway and disorderly conduct, both misdemeanors.

Quote:In some states where police have charged protesters en masse with felonies, prosecutors have swiftly dropped them, calling into question the reasoning behind the original charges.

Earlier this month in Washington, D.C., police arrested 41 protesters in the Adams Morgan neighborhood on charges of felony rioting and assaulting police officers. The Metropolitan Police Department said in a tweet on August 14 that it only arrested people “engaged in rioting behaviors.” Between May 30 and June 1, District police arrested more than 100 people on charges of burglary, destroying property, and violating curfew, including at least 40 charges of felony rioting. Prosecutors dropped most of the charges in both sets of arrests.

In Salt Lake City on Friday, a judge dropped possible life sentence charges facing protesters who poured paint, broke windows, and posted signs at the District Attorney’s Office building, reducing some charges to lower-class felonies and misdemeanors. In June, West Valley police and FBI agents arrested two men in Salt Lake who had allegedly threatened officers and were headed to protests armed with multiple weapons. Prosecutors later charged one man with terrorism. 

Also in early June, police officers in Columbia, South Carolina, arrested more than 80 protesters and charged three men with instigating a riot, typically a low-level felony or misdemeanor. 

Elected officials participating in the protest have also been caught in the crackdown. In Portsmouth, Virginia, on Monday, sheriff’s deputies delivered a summons charge to the vice mayor, after a resident pressed misdemeanor criminal charges against her for calling on the Portsmouth police chief to resign. Earlier this month, police brought felony charges against the Virginia State Senate pro tempore, a local school board member, local NAACP leaders, and public defenders for injury to a monument and conspiracy, in relation to the destruction of confederate statues in June.

Federal authorities have also carried out their own crackdown on demonstrations, arresting protesters in Portland, Oregon, and New York City in recent months. The FBI has opened some 300 domestic terrorism investigations since late May. Last year, according to the agency, most federal arrests for domestic terrorism involved white supremacy, though the FBI’s Domestic Terrorism Analysis Unit has also investigated a fictional “black identity extremists” movement. The FBI has also quietly investigated white supremacist infiltration of law enforcement in recent years, The Intercept reported. 

AMONG THE MOST serious recent charges against protesters are those of terrorism in Oklahoma.  There, Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater charged three teenagers and two other people in their 20s with terrorism related to their alleged activity during protests in late May. 
“We found it especially inappropriate — and unconstitutional — because it was made with the explicit purpose of silencing protesters who are standing up for Black lives,” American Civil Liberties Union of Oklahoma Staff Attorney Megan Lambert told The Intercept, regarding the recent terrorism charges. “We didn’t even see terrorism charges for the Murrah bombing,” she added, referring to the 1995 bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City.

Read Our Complete CoverageProtests for Black Lives

The terrorism charges, which were filed in June and July, stem from allegations that protesters set fire to a sheriff’s van and caused damage to a local bail bond business. Last month, Prater charged two other teenagers with terrorism in connection to demonstrations at the end of May, bringing the total to five. The DA also charged multiple people with rioting, assaulting officers, and at least five others for incitement to riot for painting murals in the city’s downtown area in June. 

Oklahoma Democratic Party Chair Alicia Andrews, the ACLU of Oklahoma, and Oklahoma City Black Lives Matter founder and Executive Director Rev. T. Sheri Dickerson slammed Prater’s move, saying that the charges of terrorism were far too harsh. During a press conference early last month, Andrews said she didn’t condone vandalism or destruction of property but that Prater was using the charges to silence protesters. “‘Use your First Amendment right in a way that we don’t like, and we will ruin your future.’ These charges are an attempt to send a message, ‘We’re tired of hearing about Black lives,’” she said. 

Prater took office in 2007 and is currently serving his fourth term as DA. His current term ends in 2023. He started his career in law enforcement at age 19 as a deputy sheriff, according to his bio. “These people are speaking out against violence that Prater himself has largely been complicit in,” Lambert said. “This is just another example in a pattern from David Prater’s office of upholding white supremacy.” Prater’s office did not respond to a request for comment.

Quote:“Many of these charged protesters are young teenagers. … So they are facing spending their entire lives in prison simply for, in some cases, attending a protest to try and hold police accountable.”

Last May, Prater declined to charge officers who killed 17-year-old Isaiah Lewis, who was in the middle of a mental health crisis when police shot him in Edmond. Over the last few months, local activists have brought renewed attention to Lewis’s killing, which has been a focus of some demonstrations in the area. Other cases have gotten less attention, Dickerson pointed out. Derrick Scott, 42, died last May after being apprehended and restrained by Oklahoma City police. In video footage of the arrest released in June, Scott tells officers he can’t breathe and asks them repeatedly to give him his medicine. An officer replies, “I don’t care.” 


“The Scott family is not receiving any justice,” Dickerson said, adding that Scott’s killing was eerily similar to Floyd’s. Earlier this month, police shot 32-year-old James Harmon in the head, saying that he had a weapon in his hand (Oklahoma is an open-carry state). Harmon is still in the hospital. 

“Systemic racism, institutional racism, and white supremacy is so deep-rooted,” Dickerson said, agreeing with Lambert’s characterization of Prater’s office. “There’s really nothing more Oklahoman than that.” 

“This was a state that was formed basically for them to literally lump Natives and Blacks here together,” she said. “And so it has always been very intentional and deliberate, for us to be victims of what I consider state-sanctioned violence and state-targeted violence.”

For the Oklahoma City teens and young adults facing terror charges, “what’s next is they fight for their lives,” Lambert said. The statute carries a maximum of life in prison. “Many of these charged protesters are young teenagers. … So they are facing spending their entire lives in prison simply for, in some cases, attending a protest to try and hold police accountable.” Criminal defense attorneys are still working to get those charges dropped or significantly reduced.   

“Some of the young people were saying, ‘We should go to Kenosha and stand with the young people there,” Dickerson said. “And I was like, ‘How do you choose?’”

Correction:  Aug. 28, 2020
A previous version of this article referenced terrorism charges brought by the Oklahoma City prosecutor against environmental protesters in 2013. While police officers initially booked the protesters on such charges, the prosecutor declined to file them. The reference has been removed. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-29-2020, 08:36 AM)GMDino Wrote: Here's an idea:

Take a gun to a neighboring state.  Tell the police, when they thank you for being there to help them, that you are going to defend a random building.  Then when someone else who is legally carrying a weapon asks what you are doing argue with them and shoot them.

Well, your silly example includes the police knowing that the gun was brought against state lines, which I doubt was a piece of volunteered information.  Also, your description of the events is contradicted by someone who was actually there and not involved.

Quote:Or go inside a bank to help the security guards and do the same.

Again, this is just silly and not at all relevant to what we are discussing.

Quote:The guy was looking for trouble and found it then cried self defense.  Just like all the other cowards who play cop and end up scared and kill someone because they are actually prepared to do the job.

Again, you appear to have a peculiar insight into this kid's mind that no one else seems to possess.  Your last sentence makes no sense but I'll respond as I thin you intended.  The kid was being chased by an angry mob.  Someone fired a gun behind him.  You're going to tell me you wouldn't fear for your life in such a scenario?  I know you probably think you'd be very tough and brave in such a situation but it's quit e a different story to actually be in such a situation.  Also, please don't obfuscate with an answer like "I wouldn't put myself in that situation".  What you would or would not so to begin with is not the point, it's what you would think and do in the scenario depicted.

Quote:In this case I am sad.  Sad for the kid who went down that path, sad that we live in a country where there is a path that says carrying a gun makes you tough and sad that people are defending him as if he did nothing wrong other than be attacked when he put himself in that spot because he wanted to "defend" something.  The only way to defend something is if it is being attacked.

I'm pretty sure all the looted and burned businesses in the area were attacked.  All the evidence available show the Rittenhouse was attacked.  So, they seem to have met your criteria for defense.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-29-2020, 10:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: Protests about police brutality and treatment of minorities?

Whew!  Better change the laws to punish the protesters more harshly then!

Wait...what?

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/27/black-lives-matter-protesters-terrorism-felony-charges/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=theintercept

A glaring error in your article.  The police cannot charge you with anything, they can arrest you for a crime.  Only the DA's office can actually file charges.  Journalism standards have really dropped within the last decade or so.


On a related note, federal criminal charges are being filed against many of the Portland, "largely peaceful" rioters.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-or/pr/74-people-facing-federal-charges-crimes-committed-during-portland-demonstrations

I suppose this was inevitable when the "progressive" DA in Portland refused to actually do his job properly.  A few things about federal crimes.  The Feds have well over a 90% conviction rate, serving time in a federal prison is no joke and there is no parole in the federal system.  Good luck antifa!

[Von Cichlid]

(08-29-2020, 10:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: Protests about police brutality and treatment of minorities?

Whew!  Better change the laws to punish the protesters more harshly then!

Wait...what?

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/27/black-lives-matter-protesters-terrorism-felony-charges/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=theintercept

One thing I'm sure 95% of this nation agrees on is that the rioting has to stop.  Even the most liberal politicians are coming out and saying this at this point.

Previous posters have said that this nation was built on protest.  Well, that may be true, but at the same time those early protestors did so at the risk of death.  That is why history respects them. 

This current crop is rioting and looting with relative impunity and media support (although that has waned), which is why the majority thinks these people are... not that heroic, to put it lightly. 

To say these protests are about police brutality is complete BS.  I mean, the chaos has freaking gone on unabated for 3 months now.  What government's law enforcement has ever been as tolerant as this one to this kind of nonsense?  Other larger countries would have nipped this in the bud quick.  These riots are not about police brutality, they are about class warfare. 

The protestor of today has no concrete demands that laws could actually provide.  They want "social justice," by which they mean reparations (not just for black people).  The only thing that will stop this on their terms is for the government to give each one an unspecified amount and provide them with all the commodities that they think they need in order for them to feel more equal to what they all consider the upper echelons of society.  

As the previous is an impossible task, the only way to stop the insanity is to start cracking down.  If another more practical way exists, then many in the US would love to hear it.   

[GMDino]

“Protesters your ass,” -President Trump

pic.twitter.com/m1ONgmFr2U

— Yamiche Alcindor (@Yamiche) August 28, 2020

 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-29-2020, 01:17 PM)GMDino Wrote:

“Protesters your ass,” -President Trump

pic.twitter.com/m1ONgmFr2U

— Yamiche Alcindor (@Yamiche) August 28, 2020

 

Keep trying to distract from the daily violence.  You can post all the videos of Trump saying dumb stuff you want, it doesn't change the facts. 

[GMDino]

https://www.oregonlive.com/trending/2020/08/did-you-see-photos-of-officers-supposedly-injured-last-weekend-in-nw-cities-the-facts-dont-check-out.html

Quote:Did you see photos of officers supposedly injured last weekend in NW cities? The facts don’t check out
Today 7:50 AM



These injured police officers are all from Australia. Many people saw bogus posts that 50 police were injured in Black Lives Matter protests last weekend.



Facebook Share
Twitter Share
9,581
shares

By The Associated Press

The Associated Press checks out some of the most popular but completely untrue stories and visuals of the week. This one is bogus, even though it was shared widely on social media. Here are the facts:
CLAIM: Photos show four police officers who were injured by Democrats and Black Lives Matter rioters over the weekend in Portland, Seattle and nearby cities.
THE FACTS: The officers in the photos weren’t injured at U.S. protests — in fact, they were on the other side of the world.

The four photos in a post being shared on social media show police officers who sustained injuries in various parts of Australia in 2006, 2009, 2012 and 2019. On Aug. 25, a grid of the four photos, featuring bloodied and bandaged police officers, was circulating widely on Facebook with more than 1,200 shares and 56,000 views.

“50 police officers were injured by Dems and BLM rioters over the weekend in Portland Seattle and other nearby cities,” the caption read. “Pray for their safety.”

However, research into the origin of the photos reveals they were all taken in Australia — and not over the weekend. The photo on the top left shows a police officer kneeling in the street with his hand on his knee and his forehead dripping blood. It can be traced to a September 2012 protest in Sydney, where demonstrations against a film perceived as anti-Islamic grew violent, according to local news reports with the photo.

The photo on the top right shows a police officer sitting indoors, her face covered in scratches and one hand stretched across her body to hold her other arm. Police released the photo in April 2019, after a man on parole in a Sydney suburb allegedly bit and scratched a 22-year-old officer during a welfare check, according to local reports featuring the image.

In the bottom left of the grid is a photo of a police officer on what appears to be a hospital bed, his eyes closed and his uniform marred by dark stains. It stems from a Western Australia pub fight in March 2006 when a bar patron attacked a police officer trying to break up the clash, according to local news reports using the photo.

The photo on the bottom right shows a police officer with swollen eyes and a bandage wrapped around the middle of his face. It was taken after a Christmas Day 2009 fight in Western Australia, which resulted in a police officer getting struck in the face with a brick, according to local news stories at the time.

Though these photos don’t relate to recent Black Lives Matter protests in the United States, several police officers have been injured in the demonstrations that have sprung up across the nation in the wake of George Floyd’s death. The Associated Press has reported on several such incidents, including at protests in Seattle and Portland.

— Associated Press writer Ali Swenson reported this item from Seattle.

[samhain]

(08-29-2020, 11:39 AM)Von Cichlid Wrote: One thing I'm sure 95% of this nation agrees on is that the rioting has to stop.  Even the most liberal politicians are coming out and saying this at this point.

Previous posters have said that this nation was built on protest.  Well, that may be true, but at the same time those early protestors did so at the risk of death.  That is why history respects them. 

This current crop is rioting and looting with relative impunity and media support (although that has waned), which is why the majority thinks these people are... not that heroic, to put it lightly. 

To say these protests are about police brutality is complete BS.  I mean, the chaos has freaking gone on unabated for 3 months now.  What government's law enforcement has ever been as tolerant as this one to this kind of nonsense?  Other larger countries would have nipped this in the bud quick.  These riots are not about police brutality, they are about class warfare. 

The protestor of today has no concrete demands that laws could actually provide.  They want "social justice," by which they mean reparations (not just for black people).  The only thing that will stop this on their terms is for the government to give each one an unspecified amount and provide them with all the commodities that they think they need in order for them to feel more equal to what they all consider the upper echelons of society.  

As the previous is an impossible task, the only way to stop the insanity is to start cracking down.  If another more practical way exists, then many in the US would love to hear it.   

I think there's a desire to crack down.  However, that's a bit complicated.  Cracking down in a serious way might just end the unrest.  On the other hand, it's also entirely possible that it could lead to escalation.  You're dealing with what have become real ideologues in every way on both sides of this debate, and ideologues typically don't take an ass-kicking, then go hide and never come back.  They'll stew and seethe, then respond.  You could probably send the Portland hippie-types marching home with their tails between their legs, but the true brutality protesters will remain because they believe that are fighting something truly evil.  

Power and might are nice things for authorities to have on their side, but they are far from being guarantees of definitive resolution in the face of genuine discontent.  If they were, places like Afghanistan and Syria would have been under control years ago.  If true urban warfare ensued, it would be a nightmare for everyone involved.  

I think that the authorities have been hoping that the situation would fizzle out without escalation, to no avail.

[Von Cichlid]

(08-29-2020, 05:42 PM)samhain Wrote: Power and might are nice things for authorities to have on their side, but they are far from being guarantees of definitive resolution in the face of genuine discontent.  If they were, places like Afghanistan and Syria would have been under control years ago.  If true urban warfare ensued, it would be a nightmare for everyone involved.  

I think that the authorities have been hoping that the situation would fizzle out without escalation, to no avail.

Oh I agree.  These riots are not fizzling out because these rioters aren't making reasonable demands that can actually be met.  What they want is full on reparations like what I discussed previously, or they want the country torn down.  They absolutely despise everything that's even remotely traditional and conservative, anything even loosely related to traditional American values, and they want this country changed to a point that it would be unrecognizable and would effectively cease to be the same country at all.  People did not realize how far gone these rioters are.  The liberal mayors, governors, and media did not realize it, but they do now.  

In short, they want this to be something other than America.  In this particular post I am not condemning them, I am just calling it the best I see it.

I am trying to avoid hyperbole here, I really am, but after 90 days in multiple cities it is plain as day to me that this is not about anything as relatively small as police brutality, or even general social justice.  This is an insurrection by the lower classes of society.  Like you said, there is genuine discontent, and I believe it is of the sort that will be unable to hear compromise or reason.  

I also think that even if Biden wins, that it will not stop.  Remember, these rioters hate what they perceive as the upper classes of society, and they will not separate Democrat from Republican in that regard.  After all, they are even closing in on the liberal mayors as well:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/08/29/Portland-protesters-demonstrate-at-police-union-building-mayors-condo/1101598730141/?ocid=uxbndlbing

This is even after months of the mayor "Having their back."

If this is going to be stopped, it will probably have to be put down militarily, like with an insurrection, whether it be Trump or Biden that has to be the one to do it.

Again, I really do hope I am just being hyperbolic here, but every day this continues we get closer to what I am writing about.

[GMDino]

I'm sure this will help. 

A crowd has surrounded some Black Lives Matter advocates. The crowd is chanting "All Lives Matter" pic.twitter.com/2BTupXjy8K

— Mike Baker (@ByMikeBaker) August 29, 2020

 

[samhain]

(08-29-2020, 07:04 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: Oh I agree.  These riots are not fizzling out because these rioters aren't making reasonable demands that can actually be met.  What they want is full on reparations like what I discussed previously, or they want the country torn down.  They absolutely despise everything that's even remotely traditional and conservative, anything even loosely related to traditional American values, and they want this country changed to a point that it would be unrecognizable and would effectively cease to be the same country at all.  People did not realize how far gone these rioters are.  The liberal mayors, governors, and media did not realize it, but they do now.  

In short, they want this to be something other than America.  In this particular post I am not condemning them, I am just calling it the best I see it.

I am trying to avoid hyperbole here, I really am, but after 90 days in multiple cities it is plain as day to me that this is not about anything as relatively small as police brutality, or even general social justice.  This is an insurrection by the lower classes of society.  Like you said, there is genuine discontent, and I believe it is of the sort that will be unable to hear compromise or reason.  

I also think that even if Biden wins, that it will not stop.  Remember, these rioters hate what they perceive as the upper classes of society, and they will not separate Democrat from Republican in that regard.  After all, they are even closing in on the liberal mayors as well:

https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/08/29/Portland-protesters-demonstrate-at-police-union-building-mayors-condo/1101598730141/?ocid=uxbndlbing

This is even after months of the mayor "Having their back."

If this is going to be stopped, it will probably have to be put down militarily, like with an insurrection, whether it be Trump or Biden that has to be the one to do it.

Again, I really do hope I am just being hyperbolic here, but every day this continues we get closer to what I am writing about.

I disagree with the "what they want" part of your response.  Well, with the exception of the actual anarchists, anyway.  

I honestly believe that they riots are more a product of the times we live in that any demand that anyone is making.  For one, there's no unified ultimatum among the protesters, and many fall into categories that differ greatly from each other.  There are actual BLM protestors.  These people show up to protest.  I'm sure some are violent, but they originate the gathering.  Then there are looters that are being opportunistic with the chaos.  After that, you have leftist ideologues that see it as a chance to be a part of some kind of historical change and fight the elite as you suggested.  

Then you have the most important and possibly consequential group, ie the people who really just want to tear shit up.  They cover themselves in political ideology, but they aren't there for any other reason than to escalate.  They are a real thing.  It probably doesn't take all that many of them to make any gathering go sideways, then allow herd mentality to take over.  

There's no shortage of people out there that just aren't mentally mature/empathetic enough to be in a potentially volatile situation and not do something stupid/dangerous.  Hell, I've seen it at places as frivolous as ballgames.  At one Bengals/Steelers game, where there were many fights, I walked past a kid that said word-for-word: "I don't give a shit who wins, I just want to f somebody up".  Some people just stop being themselves in those situations due to the fact that a large crowd and multiple distractions allow them to.  Add genuine anger, and you're guaranteed to have violence sooner or later.

I'm not sure about hating the upper class, either. The upper class are largely supporting the protests when it comes to corporate PR and publicly visible rich people.

[Von Cichlid]

(08-29-2020, 11:24 PM)samhain Wrote: I honestly believe that they riots are more a product of the times we live in that any demand that anyone is making.  For one, there's no unified ultimatum among the protesters, and many fall into categories that differ greatly from each other.  There are actual BLM protestors.  These people show up to protest.  I'm sure some are violent, but they originate the gathering.  Then there are looters that are being opportunistic with the chaos.  After that, you have leftist ideologues that see it as a chance to be a part of some kind of historical change and fight the elite as you suggested.  

...

I'm not sure about hating the upper class, either.  The upper class are largely supporting the protests when it comes to corporate PR and publicly visible rich people.

I think you're wrong about BLM.  Surely you've read the organization's website?  If that is not textbook extreme leftist ideology then I can't say what is.  Plus, you had the viral video of the leader claiming that the Chicago looting was reparations.  Maybe many of the daytime BLM'ers are not violent themselves, but the violence occurring at night is definitely in accordance with the organizations wishes.  

"NO JUSTICE, NO PEACE" is their most repeated mantra.  I'll take that at face value because they have showed that they mean it.

Also, corporate support from the elites means little to these people.    Target and Nike supports the cause, and their stores get looted with the rest of them.

(I will allow that some protesting with these groups may still not be aware of what the BLM organization is really about, which would put them in your first category.)

Edit: You may be right about the protests just being a sign of the times. I'll always feel that if it were not for the truly asinine COVID shutdowns that this would not be happening to anywhere near this extent. Our overreaction to this virus will go down as the worst blunder in US history.

[Dill]

As a helpful reference point, I'm posting the mission statement of BLM from their website. I'll break it into two posts to make it more wieldy.

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
What We Believe

Four years ago, what is now known as the Black Lives Matter Global Network began to organize. It started out as a chapter-based, member-led organization whose mission was to build local power and to intervene when violence was inflicted on Black communities by the state and vigilantes.

In the years since, we’ve committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.

Black Lives Matter began as a call to action in response to state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Our intention from the very beginning was to connect Black people from all over the world who have a shared desire for justice to act together in their communities. The impetus for that commitment was, and still is, the rampant and deliberate violence inflicted on us by the state.

Enraged by the death of Trayvon Martin and the subsequent acquittal of his killer, George Zimmerman, and inspired by the 31-day takeover of the Florida State Capitol by POWER U and the Dream Defenders, we took to the streets. A year later, we set out together on the Black Lives Matter Freedom Ride to Ferguson, in search of justice for Mike Brown and all of those who have been torn apart by state-sanctioned violence and anti-Black racism. Forever changed, we returned home and began building the infrastructure for the Black Lives Matter Global Network, which, even in its infancy, has become a political home for many.

Ferguson helped to catalyze a movement to which we’ve all helped give life. Organizers who call this network home have ousted anti-Black politicians, won critical legislation to benefit Black lives, and changed the terms of the debate on Blackness around the world. Through movement and relationship building, we have also helped catalyze other movements and shifted culture with an eye toward the dangerous impacts of anti-Blackness.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(08-29-2020, 07:04 PM)Von Cichlid Wrote: I am trying to avoid hyperbole here, I really am, but after 90 days in multiple cities it is plain as day to me that this is not about anything as relatively small as police brutality, or even general social justice.  This is an insurrection by the lower classes of society.  Like you said, there is genuine discontent, and I believe it is of the sort that will be unable to hear compromise or reason.  

I also think that even if Biden wins, that it will not stop.  Remember, these rioters hate what they perceive as the upper classes of society, and they will not separate Democrat from Republican in that regard.  After all, they are even closing in on the liberal mayors as well:

Honestly it seems more like it's an insurrection by the educated middle/upper-middle class youth (<30 y/o) of society. 

Then the lower class of society is just riding the wave as a cover to get free stuff. Or organized criminals using it as a smokescreen for their crimes (multiple instances now of people spreading false information on social media in order to stoke riots before there's reports of organized looting).

[Dill]

BLM mission statement, part II:

These are the results of our collective efforts.

The Black Lives Matter Global Network is as powerful as it is because of our membership, our partners, our supporters, our staff, and you. Our continued commitment to liberation for all Black people means we are continuing the work of our ancestors and fighting for our collective freedom because it is our duty.

Every day, we recommit to healing ourselves and each other, and to co-creating alongside comrades, allies, and family a culture where each person feels seen, heard, and supported.

We acknowledge, respect, and celebrate differences and commonalities.

We work vigorously for freedom and justice for Black people and, by extension, all people.

We intentionally build and nurture a beloved community that is bonded together through a beautiful struggle that is restorative, not depleting.

We are unapologetically Black in our positioning. In affirming that Black Lives Matter, we need not qualify our position. To love and desire freedom and justice for ourselves is a prerequisite for wanting the same for others.

We see ourselves as part of the global Black family, and we are aware of the different ways we are impacted or privileged as Black people who exist in different parts of the world.

We are guided by the fact that all Black lives matter, regardless of actual or perceived sexual identity, gender identity, gender expression, economic status, ability, disability, religious beliefs or disbeliefs, immigration status, or location.

We make space for transgender brothers and sisters to participate and lead.

We are self-reflexive and do the work required to dismantle cisgender privilege and uplift Black trans folk, especially Black trans women who continue to be disproportionately impacted by trans-antagonistic violence.

We build a space that affirms Black women and is free from sexism, misogyny, and environments in which men are centered.

We practice empathy. We engage comrades with the intent to learn about and connect with their contexts.

We make our spaces family-friendly and enable parents to fully participate with their children. We dismantle the patriarchal practice that requires mothers to work “double shifts” so that they can mother in private even as they participate in public justice work.

We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable.

We foster a *****‐affirming network. When we gather, we do so with the intention of freeing ourselves from the tight grip of heteronormative thinking, or rather, the belief that all in the world are heterosexual (unless s/he or they disclose otherwise).

We cultivate an intergenerational and communal network free from ageism. We believe that all people, regardless of age, show up with the capacity to lead and learn.

We embody and practice justice, liberation, and peace in our engagements with one another.