More "largely peaceful" Portland protests

[Dill]

(09-12-2020, 01:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Antifa being the primary actor or not is not the issue and quite honestly is irrelevant.  In fact I don't believe I've actually made the point that all of this is antifa's fault.  They certainly took advantage of the protests to engage in their customary violence, but my main point is that the riots have been allowed to continue for months and that the local government have been taking a kid gloves approach to it.  I know your buddies only ever provide deep, well researched arguments, even when they frequently don't, but attempts to mitigate near nightly violence are not going to be received well by me, and likely the majority of others.

I will tell you what is black and white, the violence is unacceptable and should not be downplayed or explained away.

The bolded sounds somewhat like the protesters' response to police violence.  Causes of violence are rarely "black and white" though, responses to it frequently are.

Dino's three posts above are not "well researched arguments.They provide a lot of basic information useful for providing a fact-based overview of the nature and degree of unrest in Portland. Noting that the city is not burning and that there is not rioting every night is only "downplaying" the Trump/Hannity version of events. If Dino's info doesn't help that narrative, it doesn't mean it "mitigates near nightly violence."


Thanks for clarifying what your main point is. It is certainly legitimate to question the response of Portland's major. Perhaps you could clarify more what the alternative to a 'kid gloves approach' is or should be. How would a Republican major handle the disorder? 

[*bfine32*]

Seems the Mayor of Portland states violence happens nightly:

https://www.aol.com/portland-mayor-wont-capitulate-critics-090007792.html

Quote:In a phone interview Friday, Wheeler defended the ban and its timing. He said it was a “show of good faith” for residents who want to see tangible police reform and a way to calm some of the chaos overtaking parts of the city.

“I am doing what needs to be done under difficult circumstances,” he said. “Portlanders are sick and tired of the nightly violence. They want to get back to being Portland again.”

But hey: They're just committing misdemeanors so it's cool.. 

[*bfine32*]

This will be interesting:
https://news.yahoo.com/white-bar-owner-indicted-fatal-120525131.html

Quote:A white bar owner in Nebraska was indicted Tuesday in the fatal shooting of a Black man during a protest in May, a case that a prosecutor had initially declined to prosecute after characterizing the bar owner’s actions as self-defense.

[Belsnickel]

(09-16-2020, 04:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This will be interesting:
https://news.yahoo.com/white-bar-owner-indicted-fatal-120525131.html

After reading the article and the Nebraska law surrounding self-defense, I think this is the right choice. We obviously don't have all the information, but there is this from the article:

Quote:The manslaughter charge, he said, is related to Scurlock’s death; the attempted assault charge resulted from the second warning shot Gardner fired; the charge of making terrorist threats is linked to “a verbal confrontation” that Gardner had with Scurlock, Franklin continued.

Although Franklin declined to elaborate on the specific evidence that was presented, he said that the grand jury was “able to understand that Jake Gardner was threatening the use of deadly force in the absence of being threatened with a concomitant deadly force by James Scurlock or anyone who was associated with him.”

This is important because if this was indeed the case, under Nebraska law he was not in a legal self-defense situation.

https://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=28-1409

Quote:(4) The use of deadly force shall not be justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily harm, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat, nor is it justifiable if:

(a) The actor, with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

(b) The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

(i) The actor shall not be obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and

(ii) A public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape shall not be obliged to desist from efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or prevent such escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom such action is directed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-12-2020, 06:18 PM)Dill Wrote: The bolded sounds somewhat like the protesters' response to police violence.  Causes of violence are rarely "black and white" though, responses to it frequently are.

Dino's three posts above are not "well researched arguments.They provide a lot of basic information useful for providing a fact-based overview of the nature and degree of unrest in Portland. Noting that the city is not burning and that there is not rioting every night is only "downplaying" the Trump/Hannity version of events. If Dino's info doesn't help that narrative, it doesn't mean it "mitigates near nightly violence."


Thanks for clarifying what your main point is. It is certainly legitimate to question the response of Portland's major. Perhaps you could clarify more what the alternative to a 'kid gloves approach' is or should be. How would a Republican major handle the disorder? 

I somehow missed this post, apologies for the delay in response.

As to solving the problem, it's really not that complicated.  Have the governor declare martial law, impose a strict 6 pm curfew, restrict gatherings to "x" number of people.  Do this for about a week after things calm down, then lift it and explain that a resumption of the violence will result in an immediate return to the above conditions.  Also, it would help to get the DA on board with actually prosecuting criminal acts related to these riots.  Also, stress the need to really hammer repeat offenders.  The mayor can't do all of this themselves, but they can do far more than what he's been doing, which is jack shit.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

In the latest episode of you can't make this stuff up the city council of Minneapolis is dismayed by the skyrocketing crime rate in their city.

https://www.startribune.com/mpls-council-members-press-chief-for-response-to-crime-wave/572422612/

It's almost like enabling criminals while demonizing the police engenders more criminal activity. Of course, they're still blaming the police for this because actually owning your mistakes would require a moral courage these people seem to lack.

[Mickeypoo]

(09-17-2020, 10:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In the latest episode of you can't make this stuff up the city council of Minneapolis is dismayed by the skyrocketing crime rate in their city.

https://www.startribune.com/mpls-council-members-press-chief-for-response-to-crime-wave/572422612/

It's almost like enabling criminals while demonizing the police engenders more criminal activity.  Of course, they're still blaming the police for this because actually owning your mistakes would require a moral courage these people seem to lack.

I saw this.  Unbelievable.  I know kids with more common sense.

[*bfine32*]

(09-17-2020, 10:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In the latest episode of you can't make this stuff up the city council of Minneapolis is dismayed by the skyrocketing crime rate in their city.

https://www.startribune.com/mpls-council-members-press-chief-for-response-to-crime-wave/572422612/

It's almost like enabling criminals while demonizing the police engenders more criminal activity.  Of course, they're still blaming the police for this because actually owning your mistakes would require a moral courage these people seem to lack.

Proverbs 22:8


8 Whoever sows injustice will reap calamity,
    and the rod of his fury will fail.

[Dill]

(09-17-2020, 03:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Proverbs 22:8


8 Whoever sows injustice will reap calamity,
    and the rod of his fury will fail.

[Mickeypoo]

Chauvin is a piece of shit for sure!  And I do understand what you are saying there.  :)

[GMDino]

(09-17-2020, 07:27 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: After reading the article and the Nebraska law surrounding self-defense, I think this is the right choice. We obviously don't have all the information, but there is this from the article:


This is important because if this was indeed the case, under Nebraska law he was not in a legal self-defense situation.

https://nebraskalegislature.gov/laws/statutes.php?statute=28-1409

Plot Twist!

https://www.ketv.com/article/jake-gardner-man-charged-in-scurlock-death-has-died-by-suicide-sources-say/34089387

Quote:OMAHA, Neb. —

Jake Gardner, the man accused of manslaughter in the death of 22-year-old James Scurlock, has died by suicide.

Gardner's attorney confirmed the news to KETV NewsWatch 7 on Sunday. His defense team said Gardner's body was found around Portland, Oregon, and that he did not leave a note.

Police in Oregon released the following information: "At about 12:20 p.m., Hillsboro Police Department officers responded to the 300 block of Southeast Ninth Avenue after a body was found outside a medical clinic. They discovered 38-year-old Jacob Gardner of Omaha, Nebraska, dead."

Gardner's attorney, Stu Dornan, said Gardner was scheduled to return to Omaha Sunday evening.


View full press conference in video below

"The family of Jake Gardner has asked Tom Monaghan and myself to share the news of his death today, at his own hand," he said.

Dornan said Gardner was a decorated veteran of multiple tours in Iraq, saying he suffered two traumatic brain injuries. Gardner said he felt like he was in a war zone the night of Scurlock's death, Dornan said.

"I want to make it very clear that this was a clear case of self-defense," Dornan said, describing Gardner as cooperative with police.

Dornan said that Gardner left Omaha following Scurlock's death amid death threats, and went to California.

"The grand jury indictment was a shock to him," he said. "He was really shook up."

He said Gardner was difficult to reach due to the fires in California, but that he did intend to return to Omaha. He was going to be accompanied back to Omaha by a fellow veteran, Dornan said.

Attorney Tom Monaghan said that social media convicted Gardner before the grand jury indicted him.

"There's no way to defend the lies on social media. When you respond, you only make it worse," he said. "We have to stop the lies."

He said Gardner was afraid of returning to Omaha and that he had hired a bodyguard.

"Jake was worried he was going to get shot on the way here, that some of those folks would gave him death threats...would carry through with them," Monaghan said.

Dornan said "who can blame" Gardner for not believing he would get a fair trial. He said he was frustrated that he did not have the opportunity to prove Gardner's innocence.

"I'm angry he didn't have the opportunity for a fair trial, for a fair hearing," Dornan said.

Dornan and Monaghan also revealed new evidence in the case, saying "Gardner was inside his bar on May 30 when he heard what he thought was a bullet coming through the front window of his business." It was later identified as a pole that had shattered the glass. Dornan said people began climbing into Gardner's bar, so he pulled the fire alarm, called police, and went out front. That's where the altercation between his father and another protester began, and where Scurlock and Gardner's struggle ensued.

Gardner was indicted last week on the following counts: manslaughter, use of a deadly weapon to commit a felony, attempted first-degree assault and terroristic threats.

Shortly before the indictment was announced, Jake Gardner told KETV NewsWatch 7: "It’s stressful. I’m more anxious now than when I was flying to Iraq. I was in from the end of 2000 til the end of 2004. All trained up by 9/11. I was there in 2003 during the invasion and in Haiti in 2004 to break up the civil unrest.”

Gardner fatally shot Scurlock on May 30 outside Gardner's Hive Bar. The shooting took place amid protests in the Old Market.

"I hope he turns himself in and we can start this process of seeking justice but if not, I hope OPD or the sheriff's office treats him like everybody else. If they have to fly or drive to go get him, that's what they do," Scurlock family attorney, Justin Wayne, had said.

The Douglas County Attorney Don Kleine determined Gardner acted in self-defense and did not file charges in the case, but a grand jury determined that indictments were warranted.

Special Prosecutor Frederick Franklin had said he would be in touch with Gardner's attorney to determine if Gardner will turn himself in or if he wants to be the object of the execution of an arrest warrant.

"Two days ago, I was pretty upset they didn't arrest him yet but the more I keep thinking about it, I can't ask the family who has been through so much to have faith in the process and me, as their attorney and officer of the court, to not have the same faith," Wayne said.

Video at the link.

[GMDino]

Trump is still encouraging and relishing in the violence against any he sees as the enemy to him (Lefts, press, etc.)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/19/media/trump-velshi-msnbc-shot/index.html

Quote:President Donald Trump on Friday mocked an American news anchor for being shot with a rubber bullet during George Floyd protests in May, calling it a "beautiful sight" during a political rally in Minnesota.


While speaking of the protests against racial injustice that swept the country earlier this year, Trump recalled the moment that police fired on MSNBC anchor Ali Velshi and his crew as they were reporting from Minneapolis.

"I remember this guy Velshi," Trump said. "He got hit in the knee with a canister of tear gas and he went down. He was down. 'My knee, my knee.' Nobody cared, these guys didn't care, they moved him aside."

"And they just walked right through. It was the most beautiful thing," Trump said. "No, because after we take all that crap for weeks and weeks, and you finally see men get up there and go right through them, wasn't it really a beautiful sight? It's called law and order."

The crowd then erupted in applause and cheers.

Velshi responded to Trump in a tweet, noting he was actually hit by a rubber bullet, not a tear gas canister, and asking, "What law did I break while covering an entirely peaceful (yes, entirely peaceful) march?"

In a statement, an MSNBC spokesperson said, "Freedom of the press is a pillar of our democracy. When the President mocks a journalist for the injury he sustained while putting himself in harm's way to inform the public, he endangers thousands of other journalists and undermines our freedoms."

During his live broadcast in May, Velshi and his crew could be seen covering a protest during broad daylight when police began firing tear gas at them.

"There has been no provocation, there was nothing that happened whatsoever," Velshi said. "The police pulled into this intersection, unprovoked, right into the middle of the crowd, split the crowd, started firing in both directions. They now have fired at us."

Velshi and his crew quickly moved back, but several minutes later Velshi was struck by a rubber bullet and grasped his knee in visible pain.
"Oh s**t," Velshi said. "Alright guys, I got hit."

Trump campaign spokesman Tim Murtaugh falsely asserted in a statement to CNN on Saturday that Trump was "calling the restoration of peace 'a beautiful thing,'" despite the President's clear remarks about Velshi having been captured on video.

Murtaugh's statement concluded by attacking the media.

Spokespeople for the White House did not immediately respond Saturday with a comment on Trump's remarks.

Trump and his allies have for years aimed to discredit journalists and news organizations, often through the use of lies and dishonest rhetoric. His celebration of an American journalist being attacked by police is jarring, but perhaps not surprising from a president that has branded the press as "the enemy of the people."

He either isn't capable or doesn't want to try and calm anything but prefers to see the violence.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-21-2020, 01:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: Plot Twist!

https://www.ketv.com/article/jake-gardner-man-charged-in-scurlock-death-has-died-by-suicide-sources-say/34089387



Video at the link.

Plot twist?  A man killed himself and you use it as a topic for humor?  Seriously?

[fredtoast]

(09-21-2020, 01:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: Plot Twist!

They must have found some really bad posts he had made on social media.

Can't claim he was afraid he would not get a fair trial after what happened with George Zimmerman and lots of law enforcement officers that have beaten these types of charges.

If he wanted to kill himself to avoid jail time he could have waited until AFTER convicted.  Only reason to do it now was to avoid some nasty information being made public.

[fredtoast]

(09-17-2020, 10:36 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  Of course, they're still blaming the police for this because actually owning your mistakes would require a moral courage these people seem to lack.

They are blaming the police because the police have quit doing their job.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-21-2020, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If he wanted to kill himself to avoid jail time he could have waited until AFTER convicted.  Only reason to do it now was to avoid some nasty information being made public.

Wouldn't that information still end up being made public, though?

[GMDino]

(09-21-2020, 01:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Plot twist?  A man killed himself and you use it as a topic for humor?  Seriously?

What in that post made you think it was funny or that I used it for humor?

Says much more about you than me that you thought that.

[fredtoast]

(09-21-2020, 02:17 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Wouldn't that information still end up being made public, though?

Since there won't be a trial we will never see the "new evidence" they used to indict him.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-21-2020, 02:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are blaming the police because the police have quit doing their job.

I'll take assuming facts not in evidence for $1,000, Alex.

(09-21-2020, 02:17 PM)GMDino Wrote: What in that post made you think it was funny or that I used it for humor?

Says much more about you than me that you thought that.

Probably the "Plot twist!" in the beginning of your post.  Seriously bad form, dude.

[GMDino]

(09-21-2020, 02:23 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'll take assuming facts not in evidence for $1,000, Alex.


Probably the "Plot twist!" in the beginning of your post.  Seriously bad form, dude.

Seriously if you think that means it is funny you are really disturbed.

Stop.