"My" people

[*PhilHos*]

So, I recently downloaded (illegally I'll admit) all the comics associated with DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis miniseries. I'm still in the "prologue" comics, the ones that just have the Monitor making appearances and there's a comic based on a super hero group call the "All Star Squadron". In this particular issue (written and published in 1984), there is a race riot and the villain is inspiring hatred in whites. One of the heroes is a black man (called Amazing Man) who defeats the racist villain.

At the end, after he's vanquished the villain, Amazing Man says something about helping "his people." One of the other heroes (a white woman) responds something like "I wish you would recognize ALL Americans as your people" but she says she understands what he's saying.

It got me thinking: how much closer could we come towards true racial reconciliation if people stopped seeing themselves as part of group based on their race? A friend of mine (who's black) and I have had some discussions on race and one of the things I found surprising is that he sees himself as a black man. The thing is, I don't see myself as a white man. Yes, i know I'm white, but that's not part of how I identify myself, yet, that's part of how he identifies himself.

In any event, gotta give it to the writers of a 3rd tier Justice League-type comic to get me thinking 30+ years later.

[Belsnickel]

(04-12-2018, 05:17 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, I recently downloaded (illegally I'll admit) all the comics associated with DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis miniseries. I'm still in the "prologue" comics, the ones that just have the Monitor making appearances and there's a comic based on a super hero group call the "All Star Squadron". In this particular issue (written and published in 1984), there is a race riot and the villain is inspiring hatred in whites. One of the heroes is a black man (called Amazing Man) who defeats the racist villain.

At the end, after he's vanquished the villain, Amazing Man says something about helping "his people." One of the other heroes (a white woman) responds something like "I wish you would recognize ALL Americans as your people" but she says she understands what he's saying.

It got me thinking: how much closer could we come towards true racial reconciliation if people stopped seeing themselves as part of group based on their race? A friend of mine (who's black) and I have had some discussions on race and one of the things I found surprising is that he sees himself as a black man. The thing is, I don't see myself as a white man. Yes, i know I'm white, but that's not part of how I identify myself, yet, that's part of how he identifies himself.

In any event, gotta give it to the writers of a 3rd tier Justice League-type comic to get me thinking 30+ years later.

I was listening to an activist talking about this sort of sentiment the other day. He was referring to the question often asked that is "why do you have to make it all about race?" This is a similar sentiment to what you are expressing here. The problem is that it isn't always the members of those groups that are separating themselves off. The whole concept of race was constructed by western (white, upper-class, Eurpopeans or of European descent) academics. Then, we as a society define these racial categories. What makes a person black or white is an agreed upon idea within a society. People that don't often think about their racial identity in society are often doing so because of a position of privilege where they do not incur as many negative impacts on their daily lives because of that identity.

A black person is constantly reminded of their racial identity in their daily interactions with society, and the same is true for other minority groups. It would be great if we didn't look at race so much, but that just isn't who we, as humans, are.

[GMDino]

(04-12-2018, 05:17 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, I recently downloaded (illegally I'll admit) all the comics associated with DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis miniseries. I'm still in the "prologue" comics, the ones that just have the Monitor making appearances and there's a comic based on a super hero group call the "All Star Squadron". In this particular issue (written and published in 1984), there is a race riot and the villain is inspiring hatred in whites. One of the heroes is a black man (called Amazing Man) who defeats the racist villain.

At the end, after he's vanquished the villain, Amazing Man says something about helping "his people." One of the other heroes (a white woman) responds something like "I wish you would recognize ALL Americans as your people" but she says she understands what he's saying.

It got me thinking: how much closer could we come towards true racial reconciliation if people stopped seeing themselves as part of group based on their race? A friend of mine (who's black) and I have had some discussions on race and one of the things I found surprising is that he sees himself as a black man. The thing is, I don't see myself as a white man. Yes, i know I'm white, but that's not part of how I identify myself, yet, that's part of how he identifies himself.

In any event, gotta give it to the writers of a 3rd tier Justice League-type comic to get me thinking 30+ years later.

It would be great...but we will probably always recognize each other's differences.

I think accepting those differences is key to ending our strife.

It's such a gray area for me:  If you want to have an all white club or an all black club I think it'dumb but go ahead.  If those clubs are spreading messages about how the other club is wrong/evil/bad for America I have a problem with it.

Nu I also understand a woman wanting to belong to a male only golf course if it happens to be the best course.  

So I'd "prefer" we all ignore our differences and let everyone be equal, but I'd "settle" for just getting along despite our differences.

If that makes sense.  Harder to write it out than to explain it.  

[*PhilHos*]

(04-12-2018, 05:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I was listening to an activist talking about this sort of sentiment the other day. He was referring to the question often asked that is "why do you have to make it all about race?" This is a similar sentiment to what you are expressing here. The problem is that it isn't always the members of those groups that are separating themselves off. The whole concept of race was constructed by western (white, upper-class, Eurpopeans or of European descent) academics. Then, we as a society define these racial categories. What makes a person black or white is an agreed upon idea within a society. People that don't often think about their racial identity in society are often doing so because of a position of privilege where they do not incur as many negative impacts on their daily lives because of that identity.

A black person is constantly reminded of their racial identity in their daily interactions with society, and the same is true for other minority groups. It would be great if we didn't look at race so much, but that just isn't who we, as humans, are.

But how much of the reminders of their racial identity is from OTHERS (or even others of other races) and how much of that is from seeing something that's not even there? I've known a few people over the years that claimed that anything negative said or done towards them was due to racis, when there was absolutely no evidence of such a claim.

I don't doubt that many, if not all, people of color have experienced racism to some degree in their lives, but I highly doubt that most encounter racial reminders on a daily basis unless it's of their own doing (reminding themselves of their racial identity I mean).

[*PhilHos*]

(04-12-2018, 05:37 PM)GMDino Wrote: It would be great...but we will probably always recognize each other's differences.

I think accepting those differences is key to ending our strife.

It's such a gray area for me:  If you want to have an all white club or an all black club I think it'dumb but go ahead.  If those clubs are spreading messages about how the other club is wrong/evil/bad for America I have a problem with it.

Nu I also understand a woman wanting to belong to a male only golf course if it happens to be the best course.  

So I'd "prefer" we all ignore our differences and let everyone be equal, but I'd "settle" for just getting along despite our differences.

If that makes sense.  Harder to write it out than to explain it.  

No, I think I get what you're saying. I agree that we'll always recognize when someone's different, but I don't know if I'd say the solution is so much "ignoring" the differences so much as accepting that there's nothing wrong with being different.

[GMDino]

(04-12-2018, 06:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, I think I get what you're saying. I agree that we'll always recognize when someone's different, but I don't know if I'd say the solution is so much "ignoring" the differences so much as accepting that there's nothing wrong with being different.

Yes sir.

I just feel like if you are not hurting anyone it's none of my business.  But I also want everyone treated equally.  

It's the kind of perfect world I can barely explain let alone think will happen. 

[*PhilHos*]

(04-12-2018, 06:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yes sir.

I just feel like if you are not hurting anyone it's none of my business.  But I also want everyone treated equally.  

It's the kind of perfect world I can barely explain let alone think will happen. 

[Belsnickel]

(04-12-2018, 05:58 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But how much of the reminders of their racial identity is from OTHERS (or even others of other races) and how much of that is from seeing something that's not even there? I've known a few people over the years that claimed that anything negative said or done towards them was due to racis, when there was absolutely no evidence of such a claim.

I don't doubt that many, if not all, people of color have experienced racism to some degree in their lives, but I highly doubt that most encounter racial reminders on a daily basis unless it's of their own doing (reminding themselves of their racial identity I mean).

I really think you are underestimating the effects of race in our society. I am not just saying overt bigotry, but the little implicit biases that are encountered all the time. I see this sort of stuff constantly around me in higher education. Even in a class that is for a social science, where the professor is not only very liberal but is highly cognizant of race and its effects, I witness things like this that give a definite reminder to the students of color in the classroom that they are not of the same race.

If we ever stand a chance of actually getting to the point you desire, then we need to recognize the point we are at now. I want to emphasize that I am not just trying to put down you or your thoughts, these are just my observations from working within the social sciences toward policy solutions for things. Like right now I am researching and writing about felony disenfranchisement. We like to pretend that policies like this are colorblind, that we live in a post racial society, but the effects of them tell a much different story (so do their origins, but that's a different story). We can't move past things we aren't acknowledging, and we need to move past those things before we can get to the point you want to be at.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2018, 05:58 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But how much of the reminders of their racial identity is from OTHERS (or even others of other races) and how much of that is from seeing something that's not even there? I've known a few people over the years that claimed that anything negative said or done towards them was due to racis, when there was absolutely no evidence of such a claim.

I don't doubt that many, if not all, people of color have experienced racism to some degree in their lives, but I highly doubt that most encounter racial reminders on a daily basis unless it's of their own doing (reminding themselves of their racial identity I mean).

But put in the same place you would do the exact same thing.  If your neighbor has molested children in the past and he invites your young daughter over to his home what are you going to do?

Are you just going to say "There is no proof he is trying to molest her.  Let her go."?  Or are you going to suspect that he is trying to molest her?

Or how many of you have applied for a job that you thought you deserved but did not get?  There are lots of studies out there that prove that identical resumes are treated differently based on the "ethnicity" of the name. So it is ridiculous to tell black people not to suspect racism when they don't get a job they feel they deserve. 

Same thing goes for dealing with the police when there is so much proof of systematic racism in law enforcement. 

You can't blame them for suspecting racism when there is still plenty of proof that they are victims of systematic racism.

If you were 7 foot tall and had to deal with the problems of being 7 foot tall everyday then you would probably think of yourself as a "tall person".  Same thing applies to black people.

[HarleyDog]

No matter how hard we try to unite. The media will be there to guarantee that doesn't happen. All people everywhere cannot be in the same place at the same time. The media can and it's big business for them to keep hatred forefront. I tell you, when I was in the military overseas, we were all one. We all got along great and called each other brothers and sisters. We carried each other. We triumphed and failed together. There was only 1 tv station we could watch and that was the armed forces network. They dont go there. Those were good times.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2018, 06:59 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: No matter how hard we try to unite. The media will be there to guarantee that doesn't happen. All people everywhere cannot be in the same place at the same time. The media can and it's big business for them to keep hatred forefront. I tell you, when I was in the military overseas, we were all one. We all got along great and called each other brothers and sisters. We carried each other. We triumphed and failed together. There was only 1 tv station we could watch and that was the armed forces network. They dont go there. Those were good times.

The media is not to blame for police using racial profiling.

The media is not to blame for identical resumes being treated differently based on the "ethnicity" of the name.

Systematic racism is not a myth created by the media.

[HarleyDog]

(04-12-2018, 07:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The media is not to blame for police using racial profiling.

The media is not to blame for identical resumes being treated differently based on the "ethnicity" of the name.

Systematic racism is not a myth created by the media.

Hello Mr. Fred. Good to see you. The media does control what they broadcast, so do they report on police involvement in the community? No, not good business. Also, just so you know, not all police use racial profiling. I would guess the percentage is extremely small. However, they will report only the mostly bad and develop an opinion of the sorts that Fred can carry and distribute to everyone he knows so all his contacts now believe the police are evil.

Good Grief.

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2018, 07:12 PM)HarleyDog Wrote:  The media does control what they broadcast, so do they report on police involvement in the community? No, not good business. 

What are you talking about?  The media is FULL of reports of police doing their jobs.  Where the hell do you live where the news does not talk about crime and arrests and investigations conducted by the police?

And why should the media refuse to report on racial profiling by the police?

Racism exists and you can't blame the media for reporting on it.

[HarleyDog]

(04-12-2018, 07:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What are you talking about?  The media is FULL of reports of police doing their jobs.  Where the hell do you live where the news does not talk about crime and arrests and investigations conducted by the police?

And why should the media refuse to report on racial profiling by the police?

Racism exists and you can't blame the media for reporting on it.

Your referring to police doing their jobs? So there is a shooting and they show footage of police cars there? LOLOLOL

Yes racism does exist, they media exacerbates it. Why would you stick your head in the sand on this? 

[Dill]

(04-12-2018, 07:12 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: No matter how hard we try to unite. The media will be there to guarantee that doesn't happen. All people everywhere cannot be in the same place at the same time. The media can and it's big business for them to keep hatred forefront. I tell you, when I was in the military overseas, we were all one. We all got along great and called each other brothers and sisters. We carried each other. We triumphed and failed together. There was only 1 tv station we could watch and that was the armed forces network. They dont go there. Those were good times.

(04-12-2018, 07:12 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Hello Mr. Fred. Good to see you. The media does control what they broadcast, so do they report on police involvement in the community? No, not good business. Also, just so you know, not all police use racial profiling. I would guess the percentage is extremely small. However, they will report only the mostly bad and develop an opinion of the sorts that Fred can carry and distribute to everyone he knows so all his contacts now believe the police are evil.

Seems you may be complaining about capitalism here. The news organization that reports boring stories is unlikely to compete with one that reports murders and riots.   But mainstream, professional media organizations like the New York Times and the Washington Post  and CNN and MSNBC are not trying to "keep hatred forefront."  (There are news organizations that do that. Check out Breitbart for example.)  It is not their fault if a cop shoots an unarmed person.  

Seems to me, though, that local papers do very much report police involvement in their community.  If they don't, people wonder why and they lose readership.

But there is another consideration here as well. Sometimes--well, a lot of the time now--there are pressing national issues that people need to know about, and this may crowd other things off the news.  A policeman who shoots a child IS more important news than a police department that donates computers to the local 3rd grade, especially if there have been several such shootings in the span of a year.  And the local community knows/hears about donation, if the national community does not. So it's not like no one ever hears about that. We just don't hear about it on CNN. It is not really the job of national media to report on local do gooding--though some do occasionally.

PS  I am not sure the limiting of political views on AFN is something to be cheered. It implies that a thoroughgoing militarization of news, and perhaps US society, would be a good thing.  AFN shows Meet the Press, doesn't it? So it does "go there" a little.

PPS Who would watch AFN if other channels were available?

[Dill]

(04-12-2018, 05:17 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So, I recently downloaded (illegally I'll admit) all the comics associated with DC's Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis miniseries. I'm still in the "prologue" comics, the ones that just have the Monitor making appearances and there's a comic based on a super hero group call the "All Star Squadron". In this particular issue (written and published in 1984), there is a race riot and the villain is inspiring hatred in whites. One of the heroes is a black man (called Amazing Man) who defeats the racist villain.

At the end, after he's vanquished the villain, Amazing Man says something about helping "his people." One of the other heroes (a white woman) responds something like "I wish you would recognize ALL Americans as your people" but she says she understands what he's saying.

It got me thinking: how much closer could we come towards true racial reconciliation if people stopped seeing themselves as part of group based on their race? A friend of mine (who's black) and I have had some discussions on race and one of the things I found surprising is that he sees himself as a black man. The thing is, I don't see myself as a white man. Yes, i know I'm white, but that's not part of how I identify myself, yet, that's part of how he identifies himself.

In any event, gotta give it to the writers of a 3rd tier Justice League-type comic to get me thinking 30+ years later.

A good post Philhos.

If I were Amazing man, I would have answered "Sure, and that will be easy when ALL Americans would recognize ME as one of their people."

By the way, Kudos to AM for marching for equal rights in DC world.  Racism should be eliminated everywhere!

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2018, 07:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Your referring to police doing their jobs? So there is a shooting and they show footage of police cars there? LOLOLOL

Yes, but not just footage of police cars.  They report on police investigations all the time.  What are you talking about? 

[fredtoast]

(04-12-2018, 07:24 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Yes racism does exist, they media exacerbates it. Why would you stick your head in the sand on this? 

I blame to source of the problem.  You are the one sticking your head in the sand by saying that with no media there would be no racism.

The media reports a lot of child abuse.  Is the media to blame for that also?

[StLucieBengal]

We are all just Americans. Once black people stop calling themselves African Americans they can join us as being just Americans. Same goes for any other sub group.

To do that they all need to stop playing the victim card.

[GMDino]

(04-12-2018, 08:29 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We are all just Americans.  Once black people stop calling themselves African Americans they can join us as being just Americans.   Same goes for any other sub group.  

To do that they all need to stop playing the victim card.

"The victim card"