NFL Viewing is down 7.5%. Do you watch the Bengals as Much? Causes of this?

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-18-2017, 10:25 PM)CJ2etc Wrote: Buddy and I have season tickets - 3 club level seats.  We served together in Desert Storm.  The CK thing was bothering us but it was one stupid, ignorant spoiled brat.  Then another joined, and another, and it just isn't something we can ignore anymore.  We always tell the story of how we woke up in the desert in January of 1991 at 2am and listened to the win on shortwave armed forces radio. Anthem and flag are sacred to us and I know quite a few others who feel the same way.  We haven't attended a home game since and haven't watched them on TV either.  We were huge NFL fans and when we weren't at the Bengals games we were texting with each other and a few other veteran friends for the other Sunday, Monday and Thursday night games.  We are done, we won't be renewing and we were talking earlier today about it - the bond is gone, the passion we felt has been replaced by a sense of betrayal.  It's one of those things that if you haven't experienced what those symbols mean to people like us you just can't understand it.  Too many have lost too much and that is the time we reflect and pay respect to those who paid the ultimate price. The older I get the more sentimental I get when I hear the anthem and I always start running through my mental list of those I served with who are no longer with us.  And to take a knee or disrespect that 2 minutes is just not something we are not only willing to ignore, but to pay money to participate in.  Just can't do it and I assure you there are a lot of us out here.  The NFL will never get people like us back.  Ironic that these people protest the police while surrounded and escorted on and off the field by police.

You'd think that military veterans wouldn't have such thin skin.  

Serve in a combat situation against people that want to remove your head from your body?  Handled.

Watch someone peacefully protest for a cause that they believe in?  Falls apart.

[sandwedge]

(10-19-2017, 11:33 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: You'd think that military veterans wouldn't have such thin skin.  

Serve in a combat situation against people that want to remove your head from your body?  Handled.

Watch someone peacefully protest for a cause that they believe in?  Falls apart.

You have no clue what you are talking about unless you have had to hold a dying friend, or write that god awful letter to his parents or wife.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-18-2017, 09:07 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: 1.  Manfred and Silver aren't doing as well. Baseball is on the decline as a whole. People just don't care as much. NBA is all about the players so the owners/Commish have no real power. The power dynamic is insane. 

2. He'd be much better off to just basically ignore it like NBA does/did? MLB? Rule changes...Silver and Manfred won't win any rule changes awards either. And MOST of the rules are good changes aimed for player safety or improving the game. Moving the FG back? Good. Moving touchbacks up? Good. The what is a catch BS is not his fault and there's no way to handle it well. 

You can't list how he handled Ray Rice when dudes were literally getting off of murder charges under Tagliabue and still playing and then "wonder" if social media may or may not have played a role. Come on. 

1. If you say so. The NBA is truly surging in popularity. Baseball is stagnant as far as growth, but will always have it's hardcore fans. This has nothing to do with fans having no problems with Manfred or Silver, though. And fwiw, if the NBA commish had no power, I'm sure players would be kneeling for the Anthem. Those players are every bit as liberal as NFL players, if not more so.

2. We just have to disagree that there's nothing he could do about the catch rule. There's many things they could do to improve that. It's a common sense thing. Too many times a player has clear possession (by common sense - not by rule) and a TD is taken off the books because he threw the ball in the stands or let go of the ball intentionally or some other nonsense. XP's were fine where they were at. Moving them back didn't add much excitement and those should be a chip shot anyway. 

Whether you agree with people or not, many just aren't happy when something that wasn't broken is constantly tinkered with. I get the safety related changes...but many of the rule changes aren't really related to safety, and they've done a very poor job of improving the on-field product.

Tagliabue had one dude get off with murder (supposedly), and Tagliabue couldn't help that the criminal justice system set Lewis free. He did fine Lewis an NFL record $250,000. Again, if you want to blame social media, I point to Manfred and Silver. Especially Silver. The NBA is massively popular. They just limit rule changes, their players find other ways of protesting without dishonoring the Flag and Anthem, they have more of a fan-friendly atmosphere, and Silver doesn't come across as a smug and pompous ass.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-19-2017, 11:33 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: You'd think that military veterans wouldn't have such thin skin.  

Serve in a combat situation against people that want to remove your head from your body?  Handled.

Watch someone peacefully protest for a cause that they believe in?  Falls apart.

Watching players take a knee during the anthem? Handled.

Watching someone calmly and rationally explain why they no longer support the NFL? Falls apart.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-19-2017, 11:53 AM)sandwedge Wrote: You have no clue what you are talking about unless you have had to hold a dying friend, or write that god awful letter to his parents or wife.

The problem with the whole thing is that you people are trying to make the NFL flag protests about something that it's not.  Not a single NFL player has stated that they are protesting the military.  If you can find otherwise, I'll give you your point.  If not, let's stop dwelling on what it isn't, and move it to something that it is:

You have no clue what you are talking about unless you are part of a group of people that are automatically treated as hostile at a higher rate when dealing with police officers.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-19-2017, 12:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Watching players take a knee during the anthem? Handled.

Watching someone calmly and rationally explain why they no longer support the NFL? Falls apart.

If you want to call my post "falling apart", so be it.  I will keep questioning anyone who has such a problem with people peacefully protesting systemic racial inequality, that they're willing to boycott the entire NFL about it.

[sandwedge]

(10-19-2017, 12:19 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: The problem with the whole thing is that you people are trying to make the NFL flag protests about something that it's not.  Not a single NFL player has stated that they are protesting the military.  If you can find otherwise, I'll give you your point.  If not, let's stop dwelling on what it isn't, and move it to something that it is:

You have no clue what you are talking about unless you are part of a group of people that are automatically treated as hostile at a higher rate when dealing with police officers.

And just how do you know I am not part of that group?

[THE PISTONS]

I read an article about how the average age of a viewer of the NBA has stayed the same while the other average ages of other sports is rising.

This means that the NBA is attracting new viewers.

To an older group of viewers...something like being Patriotic is a big thing.

NBA also is tied pretty closely with shoe manufacturers and individual stars. Kids love having the newest shoes. The other sports really don't have that aspect. I mean to wear football cleats, you are playing football.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-19-2017, 12:19 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: The problem with the whole thing is that you people are trying to make the NFL flag protests about something that it's not.  Not a single NFL player has stated that they are protesting the military.  If you can find otherwise, I'll give you your point.  If not, let's stop dwelling on what it isn't, and move it to something that it is:

You have no clue what you are talking about unless you are part of a group of people that are automatically treated as hostile at a higher rate when dealing with police officers.

To military members, Flag and service are pretty much synonymous. The flag represents the reasons they served.

So regardless of what players say their intentions were, the act of intentionally disrespecting the flag is going to be viewed as disrespectful to those that served with that Flag on their uniforms. 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2017, 12:19 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: The problem with the whole thing is that you people are trying to make the NFL flag protests about something that it's not.  Not a single NFL player has stated that they are protesting the military.  If you can find otherwise, I'll give you your point.  If not, let's stop dwelling on what it isn't, and move it to something that it is:

You have no clue what you are talking about unless you are part of a group of people that are automatically treated as hostile at a higher rate when dealing with police officers.

Some people don't like change. As American's we stand up and salute the flag since grade school. Year and years and years. No matter what the NFL players are trying to represent by not standing...Americans will view it as disrespecting the flag by doing something different.

[depthchart]

(10-19-2017, 12:24 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: If you want to call my post "falling apart", so be it.  I will keep questioning anyone who has such a problem with people peacefully protesting systemic racial inequality, that they're willing to boycott the entire NFL about it.

You want to alter the Anthem ceremony itself as your form of protest.

There is a Solemn element to the National Anthem ceremony itself that is just as important as the singing of the song.

Formal, dignified and characterized by deep sincerity. A serious moment of silence and respect for what the Anthem ceremony represents.

You want people to give up that Solemnness portion of the Ceremony to allow for Protests which can end up being for any cause imaginable over time.

You in effect say, allow us to Alter your historical ceremony by drawing attention to ourselves and our cause as we Kneel.

Knowing full well that the act of Kneeling is drawing attention because it flies in the face of the Solemnness aspect of the Anthem ceremony.

Next a player can "Peacefully" start Singing some other song at the top of his lungs during the Anthem song itself to draw attention to his cause and anyone that disagrees with that just has a problem with someone Peacefully protesting for racial equality.

Wise up...

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-19-2017, 12:26 PM)sandwedge Wrote: And just how do you know I am not part of that group?

I don't. You admitting that it's happening is a good thing, so maybe I misread you and you're on the right side of history here. If so, you have my sincere apologies. Your original response to me led me to believe otherwise.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-19-2017, 12:54 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: I don't. You admitting that it's happening is a good thing, so maybe I misread you and you're on the right side of history here. If so, you have my sincere apologies. Your original response to me led me to believe otherwise.

You don't know any black folks that are against using the Anthem as a platform for protests? I do.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume people's race based on their stance.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-19-2017, 12:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: To military members, Flag and service are pretty much synonymous. The flag represents the reasons they served.

So regardless of what players say their intentions were, the act of intentionally disrespecting the flag is going to be viewed as disrespectful to those that served with that Flag on their uniforms. 

Not to all military members. Some believe that protection of the American people and their rights (rather than the flag) are synonymous to their service. Some believe that they fought for reasons such as equal treatment for all Americans, and protection of constituational rights, rather than tradition and flag idolatry.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-19-2017, 12:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Some people don't like change. As American's we stand up and salute the flag since grade school. Year and years and years. No matter what the NFL players are trying to represent by not standing...Americans will view it as disrespecting the flag by doing something different.

Some dislike change, and some embrace progress.

When something is wrong with the country, you should take steps to fix it, rather than side-stepping the issue and getting defensive that your traditions have become a symbol.

I support humans, not symbols. When flag-defending veterans turn their back on people, I will defend them.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-19-2017, 12:59 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: You don't know any black folks that are against using the Anthem as a platform for protests? I do.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume people's race based on their stance.

You did see me apologize in there, right? You read my post, I assume.

Do I need to do it again?

Sometimes assumptions are safe. Sometimes they backfire.

For what it's worth, I do know a couple African Americans that don't support the flag protest. Not coincidentally, these guys also feel that there is no issue with the treatment of African Americans by police and others of authority. Sandwedge acknowledges that mistreatment. That's rare, from what I've seen.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-19-2017, 12:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: To military members, Flag and service are pretty much synonymous. The flag represents the reasons they served.

So regardless of what players say their intentions were, the act of intentionally disrespecting the flag is going to be viewed as disrespectful to those that served with that Flag on their uniforms. 

Well that's the fault of those not actually listening (EDIT - or caring) when those players specifically say what they are protesting. All the focus is on when/how rather than why.
Perhaps someone should propose a more effective way for these players to protest that will get as much or more attention than it's getting right now.
Until then, this is the best way these players have found to get their message across.

[depthchart]

(10-19-2017, 01:07 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Some dislike change, and some embrace progress.

When something is wrong with the country, you should take steps to fix it, rather than side-stepping the issue and getting defensive that your traditions have become a symbol.

I support humans, not symbols. When flag-defending veterans turn their back on people, I will defend them.

Sounds like you are "All in" on dissing traditions to promote causes.

What other Solemn events can you use as a Tool to get your message out ?

Maybe an NFL player can get a camera crew to follow him as he crashes a Solemn event like a Wedding and that player can Kneel in between the Bride and groom right before they say "I do".

Great attention grabber and you can take your stance against anyone that rips on that player for it. Protect his Freedoms to diss for attention.

After all, the Cause comes before the Tradition and it will take New and inventive ideas like Wedding crashing to keep getting the message out over time.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-19-2017, 01:07 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Some dislike change, and some embrace progress.

When something is wrong with the country, you should take steps to fix it, rather than side-stepping the issue and getting defensive that your traditions have become a symbol.

I support humans, not symbols. When flag-defending veterans turn their back on people, I will defend them.

There are plenty of people who feel that nothing is wrong with the country. There in lies the divide.

For Trump to get elected...a lot of people liked him.

In every election some peoples candidate wins...others lose.

Where do protests stop?

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-19-2017, 01:17 PM)depthchart Wrote: Sounds like you are "All in" on dissing traditions to promote causes.

What other Solemn events can you use as a Tool to get your message out ?

Maybe an NFL player can get a camera crew to follow him as he crashes a Solemn event like a Wedding and that player can Kneel in between the Bride and groom right before they say "I do".

Great attention grabber and you can take your stance against anyone that rips on that player for it. Protect his Freedoms to diss for attention.

After all, the Cause comes before the Tradition and it will take New and inventive ideas like Wedding crashing to keep getting the message out over time.

lol...this is ridiculous.

You managed to strawman and slippery slope the shit out of me all in one asinine post.

Disregarded.