Nearly 30 dead as multiple mass shootings hit across the US

[BmorePat87]

Saturday morning opened to carnage as a man walked drove 600 miles to El Paso and opened fire at a Walmart, killing 20 people. Prior to the first 911 call, a manifesto was posted online appearing to be authentic, identifying the shooter's motives as a desire to stop latino immigration. The manifesto complains about latinos becoming the dominant political force in Texas and interracial marriage and pregnancies while also using language such as "send them back" and "invasions" in reference to them. It calls for the separation of ethnic groups into their own sovereign areas. The manifesto said not to blame Trump and cast blame on Republicans and Democrats, though the gunman's alleged social media accounts showed support for Trump and his immigration policies. The manifesto said they would not surrender, but the gunman surrendered to police.

Around 1am on Sunday morning, another gunman opened fired at a crowded bar in Dayton, killing 9, including his sister. In under a minute, he was able to wound dozens, before being killed by cops. There is no apparent cause and the gunman's social media accounts show support for socialism, satanism, and opposition to Trump. A former classmate and her parents warned police a decade ago when he told her that he fantasized about tying her up and slitting her throat. He was suspended in high school after the school went on lockdown when a hit list belonging to him was found. A high school classmate said he would make odd jokes about death and made people feel uncomfortable. An old Myspace account shows drawings with phrases such as “All Shall Be Annihilated,” “Bloodlust,” “Absolute Carnage” and “Bloody Massacre" in odd fonts.

In Chicago around the same time, a gunman in a car opened fire on a group hanging out at a playground, wounding 7. One of the wounded remains in critical condition while the rest have been stabilized. Fortunately no deaths and the police are searching for a suspect and motive.

The President tweeted from his NJ golf course about the events, saying he will have more to say on Monday, while Democratic candidates responded in turn through social media and TV. Beto O'Rourke suspended his campaigning to return to his hometown of El Paso while Tim Ryan did the same to head back to Ohio.

[*michaelsean*]

I know we have a lot of people in this country. I imagine there are a lot of people who have fantasized about doing something like this in some sort of outrage at the world, but I still have a hard time comprehending the number of people actually willing to do it.

[BmorePat87]

Trump, in what will certainly earn him criticism, has suggested tying gun control reform to immigration reform.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/456137-trump-suggests-tying-background-checks-to-immigration-reform?fbclid=IwAR3hN-v7WIbJ6gf72auXq0dEBmXZXGgQg5T2Dbq4nk5C1MmNLiAe-514CeU

....this legislation with desperately needed immigration reform. We must have something good, if not GREAT, come out of these two tragic events!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 5, 2019

[*michaelsean*]

(08-05-2019, 08:55 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Trump, in what will certainly earn him criticism, has suggested tying gun control reform to immigration reform.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/456137-trump-suggests-tying-background-checks-to-immigration-reform?fbclid=IwAR3hN-v7WIbJ6gf72auXq0dEBmXZXGgQg5T2Dbq4nk5C1MmNLiAe-514CeU

....this legislation with desperately needed immigration reform. We must have something good, if not GREAT, come out of these two tragic events!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 5, 2019

El Paso is going to be dropped all on him.  He's be best not to talk about immigration at all.  

[GMDino]

A few thoughts I had yesterday on all this:

I always maintained that if you told me every man who committed a sexual crime watched porn I wouldn't be surprised but if you told me every man who watched porn committed a sexual crime I'd know you were a liar.  In other words people are attracted to what they already are.

The El Paso shooter was anti-immigrant and he was fueled by the rise in anti-immigration stories and talk in this country.  Would he have done something this crazy eventually without that?  Maybe.  It's less likely one of us would.

But the language being used of "invasions" and "infesting" is not helping.  The ones who may lean toward violent answers to the "problem" are only encouraged that they are correct when there are elected officials who tell them they are.

Were they mentally ill?  IMHO anyone who kills innocent people is.  You (universal) have to be able to turn off all empathy for your fellow human beings and more to kill someone (not in self-defense).  But we are not the only country in the world with mental illness.  We are just the only one with these mass shooting events that takes place REGULARLY.

And the officials blaming video games can go kick rocks for the same reason.  Every other country has the same things we have: mental illness, violent video games, violent movies, immigrants and anti-immigrant rhetoric.  They don't have these mass shootings.  I don't have to say why.

I am pro-2A.  I believe in the right to own weapons.  I also believe we have a serious problem with guns and violence in this country and WE better find a way to limit these events or it will just get worse before it gets better on its own.

[CJD]

The second guy it seems like he was targeting his sister. They went out together and then he split off and shot up the exact bar she was in? There's no way that wasn't intentional.

[GMDino]

(08-05-2019, 09:10 AM)michaelsean Wrote: El Paso is going to be dropped all on him.  He's be best not to talk about immigration at all.  

Don't worry...DJT already has a scapegoat:

The Media has a big responsibility to life and safety in our Country. Fake News has contributed greatly to the anger and rage that has built up over many years. News coverage has got to start being fair, balanced and unbiased, or these terrible problems will only get worse!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 5, 2019

 

[Au165]

I have thought a lot about this, and I believe I said it after Vegas, but the 2nd Amendment doesn't protect the capacity of the weapons or their rate of fire. Stopping actual shootings is a very complex problem that I'm not sure we can actually prevent at this point. What we can do is minimize damage. In Dayton he shot 36 people in 30 seconds...that shouldn't happen, that can't happen. That kind of response time by police is almost unheard of and the shooter still hit 36 people and killing 9. We ca't allow people access to firearms that can deal that much damage that quickly.

I am not saying round up all the guns, that isn't legal or feasible. It is important to protect people's rights to self protection, hunting, etc., which is why I believe there should be a ban placed on all magazine capable fire arms. Only firearms that hold 8 rounds or less and use a pump/revolver/ bolt action would be legal. This allows people to still do all the things needed under the second amendment, but in these events limits the amount of damage that can be dealt out. I understand something like this would cause outrage among gun enthusiasts, but their hobby is not worth people's lives.

The U.S. Government would buy back all banned firearms over a two year period after which the possession of such firearms would become illegal. The penalty for possessing a banned firearm would be a felony with 10 years in prison. Don't tell me bad guys won't follow the rules, almost all fire arms used in these events are legally bought not some back alley filed down serial number gun. Laws in general aren't there for the ones who wish to follow them, but rather to punish those who choose not to.

If we only made laws people followed there would be no laws. It's time to stop making excuses for why we can't do anything and start doing something.

[Belsnickel]

And the endless cycle continues.

[*Nately120*]

(08-05-2019, 09:29 AM)GMDino Wrote: Don't worry...DJT already has a scapegoat:

The Media has a big responsibility to life and safety in our Country. Fake News has contributed greatly to the anger and rage that has built up over many years. News coverage has got to start being fair, balanced and unbiased, or these terrible problems will only get worse!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) August 5, 2019

 

I have to agree in a sense, because Trump isn't president without the sensationalist media being what it is and affecting people the way it does.

[Belsnickel]

(08-05-2019, 09:46 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I have to agree in a sense, because Trump isn't president without the sensationalist media being what it is and affecting people the way it does.

That and Twitter.

[Vas Deferens]

NYT's 'The Daily' podcast tells about the parents of a deceased parkland school child who had gone to El Paso to celebrate what would have been their child's 19th birthday and honor him by serving the community as he had always done. It's chilling to know that we are in an era when a single family was in proximity to being the victim of mass shootings on separate occasions. I'm sure there are other instances of it out there, but that really hit me hard this AM.

We need some real changes... Quick. And Moscow Mitch's decades old approach to stalling any progress on the issue makes him culpable at least.

Sad days.

[GMDino]

Trump is speaking right now.  Started off strong...then went after video games.  Moron.

He also hasn't acknowledged HIS cutting programs that would help stop those with true mental illness from getting a firearm.

All that said he "said all the right things"...but I'll withhold giving him "credit" until his next rally when he whips his minions up.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Two shooters, one fueled by right win ideology the other by left. The El Paso shooter claimed to be inspired by the Christchurch shooter's manifesto. The thing about that is the expressed purpose of using firearms in the act were so the left would clamp down with tighter gun laws and polarize the country even more, with the expressed purpose of starting a civil war. In New Zealand at least, the government was only too happy to comply with the killer's desires.


I am interested, for those who propose them, what exact gun control measures do you propose and would they have stopped these events?

[GMDino]

Wisely Trump is shuffled off the stage before any questions or he can go off script.  

[*Nately120*]

(08-05-2019, 11:18 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I am interested, for those who propose them, what exact gun control measures do you propose and would they have stopped these events?

No guns allowed for people who believe political rhetoric. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-05-2019, 11:30 AM)Nately120 Wrote: No guns allowed for people who believe political rhetoric. 

Sadly difficult to implement.

[Vas Deferens]

(08-05-2019, 11:18 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Two shooters, one fueled by right win ideology the other by left. The El Paso shooter claimed to be inspired by the Christchurch shooter's manifesto.  The thing about that is the expressed purpose of using firearms in the act were so the left would clamp down with tighter gun laws and polarize the country even more, with the expressed purpose of starting a civil war.  In New Zealand at least, the government was only too happy to comply with the killer's desires.


I am interested, for those who propose them, what exact gun control measures do you propose and would they have stopped these events?

Knowing your stance and penchant for informed, civil debate on the issue, I was actually going to engage you in a similar question SSF.  "what would it take for you to agree to gun control legislation"  But the parameters or specific legislation need to be set for that question to be answered.

To start with your question - I would want stricter background checks, where someone who has shown a proclivity towards violence would be kept from purchasing guns; an end to the swap meet loophole; a universal database tracking gun owners and their guns; and a much much more intensive background checks on weapons capable of inflicting harm at mass shooting levels.  (As I have stated in the past I have a friend who has a litany of very powerful guns, but goes through extra scrutiny at the federal level to acquire them, sometimes taking acquisition a year or more. I don't think that is unreasonable and will help keep these firearms out of the hands of the wrong people.)  

As to whether this would have stopped these occurances.  I would say they probably would have were they inacted 10+ years ago when this conversation was taking place at that time.  Both of these individuals have made comments (El Paso) or have been watched by the police (Dayton) which could have kept these firearms out of their hands.  Regardless of if it would stem these specific events, I am sure these reasonable laws would save some lives in the future.  That is hard to deny imho.

Quick question, what is the source of this comment?  Genuine.  

Quote:Two shooters, one fueled by right win ideology the other by left.

[*Nately120*]

(08-05-2019, 11:32 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sadly difficult to implement.

The government is already spying on us, so just take the people who use social media to spread and applaud all the violent and extreme bs our politicians say and deem them mentally unfit to own guns.

It's ok for the president to say "People of XYZ group are dangerous" but when Joe Public says it, he's crazy and dangerous.  Also, we still need to implement my idea of treating people who die in the line of protecting our 2A right as we treat those who die in the military.  Make them heroes, give them a memorial, give their families benefits.  Even citizens can die in the line of duty when it comes to this sort of thing.

[BmorePat87]

(08-05-2019, 11:16 AM)GMDino Wrote: Trump is speaking right now.  Started off strong...then went after video games.  Moron.

His criticism of video games in the wake of shootings goes back years. When the shooter parrots your talking points, I guess you have to blame anything.