New York Legalizes Abortion Until Day Of Birth

[fredtoast]

(01-31-2019, 10:05 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: The word was "irremediably." I haven't been following it closely, but words like that in legislation are often rooted in politics rather than good faith policy efforts. They create ambiguity and subjectivity into the execution of policy that are intended to muddy the waters and make the law difficult to interpret by the judiciary. Whether this was reasoning they used in striking them in their bill, I don't know. This is just what I know from the use of qualifying language like that in law based on my experience in policy research.

This.  They create abiguity that allows courts more discretion to rule based on polical beliefs.  Opponents of abortion would interpret those terms to mean "never". 

[BmorePat87]

(01-31-2019, 10:05 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: In this specific law, the "and irremediably" part has been taken to mean that if there is any other potential avenue, even one that has a tiny chance of success, that would mean the use of abortion for the remedy was off the table. So that word in particular has, from my understanding, caused many issues.

That makes sense. 

So essentially it just amends current policy to change it from 3 to 1 physicians and removes a piece where someone could argue that there is a slight chance of survival for the woman. 

I can also see how removing those words will allow people to think that any little thing will allow an abortion of a full term baby. 

[Belsnickel]

(01-31-2019, 11:02 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That makes sense. 

So essentially it just amends current policy to change it from 3 to 1 physicians and removes a piece where someone could argue that there is a slight chance of survival for the woman. 

I can also see how removing those words will allow people to think that any little thing will allow an abortion of a full term baby. 

Indeed. This is really something that has been blown out of proportion because it is an election year in Virginia. Every Delegate and State Senator is up for election this fall, and so the GOP is seizing on this optics issue to rally their base.

[GMDino]

I know no one will care, because facts and dry medical language have no place in a debate driven by religion and emotion.

But I do try.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/06/health/late-term-abortion-explainer/index.html

Quote:Before judging 'late-term abortion,' understand what it means, doctors say

(CNN)President Donald Trump has called on Congress "to pass legislation to prohibit the late-term abortion of children." This came after he first accused New York lawmakers of cheering for "legislation that would allow a baby to be ripped from the mother's womb moments before birth" and then said embattled Virginia Gov. Ralph Northam "would execute a baby after birth."


With the recent passage of New York's new Reproductive Health Act and Northam's voiced support of a measure that would loosen restrictions on abortions later in pregnancy, the phrase "late-term abortion" has appeared in headlines, peppered conversations, fueled social media battles -- and now made it into a State of the Union address. But what exactly does this language mean?


CNN spoke with two ob-gyns to explain: Dr. Barbara Levy, vice president of health policy at theAmerican College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, a professional organization; and Dr. Jennifer Conti, a fellow with the advocacy group Physicians for Reproductive Health and co-host of The V Word podcast.


CNN: What does the phrase "late-term abortion" mean to you?
Dr. Barbara Levy: The phrase "late-term abortion" is medically inaccurate and has no clinical meaning. In science and medicine, it's essential to use language precisely. In pregnancy, to be "late term" means to be past 41 weeks gestation, or past a patient's due date. Abortions do not occur in this time period, so the phrase is contradictory.

Dr. Jennifer Conti: In obstetrics, we don't divide pregnancies into terms. "Late term" is an invention of anti-abortion extremists to confuse, mislead and increase stigma. The appropriate language is "abortions later in pregnancy."


CNN: When people speak about abortion later in pregnancy, are they referring to abortion in the third trimester or something else?
Levy: Generally, abortion later in pregnancy refers to abortion that happens at 21 weeks or later, so in the second or third trimester.


CNN: How common or uncommon are abortions at this stage of pregnancy?
Conti: According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, abortions after 21 weeks make up less than 1.3% of all abortions in the United States. This means that abortions that occur beyond 24 weeks make up less than 1% of all procedures.


CNN: Can you explain why abortions happen later in a pregnancy?
Conti: There are many reasons why women may need to access abortion later in pregnancy, including maternal health endangerment, diagnosis of fetal abnormalities or restrictive laws delaying earlier access to abortion care. Those exceptionally rare cases that happen after 24 weeks are often because a fetus has a condition that cannot be treated and will never be able to survive -- regardless of the gestational age or trimester.

It's this exact reason that it's nonsensical to legislate these cases: Nobody arrives at the decision to have an abortion after 24 weeks carelessly. Rather, it's the rare case of rapidly decompensating maternal heart disease or a delayed diagnosis of anencephaly, where the fetus forms without a complete brain or skull, that bring people to these decisions.


Levy: Abortions later in pregnancy typically occur because of two general indications: lethal fetal anomalies or threats to the health of the mother. Some fetal development problems or genetic anomalies do not show up or develop until later in pregnancy. Some examples might include anencephaly (described above) or limb-body wall complex, when the organs develop outside of the body cavity. With conditions like these, the fetus cannot survive out of the uterus.

Likewise, when conditions progress or appear that severely compromise a woman's health or life, abortion may be the safest, medically indicated procedure. These conditions can also reduce the possibility of fetal survival. 
They might include premature rupture of membranes (where the fluid surrounding the fetus is lost before labor), uterine infection, preeclampsia, placental abruption and placenta accreta. Women under these circumstances may have extensive blood loss or septic shock that can be fatal.


It's important to note, if a woman's health or life is at risk and the fetus is viable, delivery is pursued, not abortion.


In the case of either lethal fetal anomalies or complications that endanger a woman's life, it's essential that women and their physicians are able to consider the full range of appropriate treatments, whether that's abortion care, induction of labor or cesarean birth. Every pregnant woman's situation and medical condition are different, and there is no way to make a one-size-fits-all determination about the appropriate care.


No matter what, care must be compassionate and recognize that for many women, the choices they are facing are devastating and immensely complicated.


CNN: Can any woman simply choose to have an abortion late in her pregnancy?
Levy: Abortion later in pregnancy is a very complex decision and, often, a very emotional one. We know that women who make the decision to have an abortion do so in a considered, deliberate fashion. This is especially true for women who have abortions later in pregnancy who are often facing devastating fetal diagnoses or life-threatening conditions that may introduce a multitude of clinical considerations into their decision-making.
Moreover, the ob-gyns who provide later in pregnancy abortion care have very specific training both in the technical procedure, as well as ethical decision-making in complex clinical circumstances.

Conti: Federal law is meant to protect the right to abortion up to the point of viability (often thought of as 24 weeks from the last menstrual period), but numerous states have subsequently enacted harmful gestational age limits that are ideologically motivated and not based in science. Your right to an abortion is now absolutely based on the accident of your ZIP code.


If a person needs to end their pregnancy after 24 weeks, there are a limited number of places in the country where they can do that, and the approval process for that procedure is scrupulous.


CNN: Many states that impose gestational age limits for abortion do so with exceptions. Do exceptions do enough to alleviate your concerns?
Levy: The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists opposes undue political interference in the practice of medicine, including legislation that bans abortion at an arbitrary cutoff point. While exceptions are often suggested for gestational age bans, the fact is that it's impossible to predict every circumstance that might arise in pregnancy.

Additionally, exceptions can also generate significant confusion for health care providers attempting to interpret these laws and practice accordingly, particularly when they face criminal charges if they violate the law, even if accidentally.


It is an exceedingly precarious position between counseling patients on the most appropriate and compassionate care for their health and interpreting vague legal exceptions.


CNN: Are there other reasons access to abortion care concerns you?
Levy: Even in states where arbitrary gestational age restrictions do not exist, barriers to any abortion care are still very common. Many women in the United States live 100 miles or more from the nearest abortion care provider. Even if they are able to access a health care provider, they are likely to face other barriers to abortion care, like medically unnecessary ultrasounds, mandatory 24-hour waiting periods and two in-person trips to a clinic. And of course, for women living in states that ban coverage of abortion care in insurance plans, the procedure -- especially if they need to travel, take time off of work and/or secure child care -- may be prohibitively expensive. Federal funding for abortion care is also banned, except in extremely limited circumstances

For women who need abortion care in the third trimester, there are very few places across the country where this care is accessible, and it is very rarely covered by insurance. Typically, these procedures would cost in the thousands of dollars. Moreover, many women would have to travel by plane to reach these providers, so in addition to the cost of the care, they are incurring the cost of travel and lodging.


CNN: What do you wish people would think about when discussing this hot-button subject?
Levy: It's important to remember, whether in a discussion about abortion care or any other component of care, that these are complicated, nuanced circumstances that affect the course of real people's lives.

Particular to abortion care later in pregnancy, I would urge everyone to exercise more compassion. It's important to acknowledge that we simply cannot possibly know the circumstances of every pregnancy or the challenge of making decisions when things go terribly awry.


Abortion later in pregnancy is not used as an alternative to delivering healthy women's full-term, viable pregnancies. Additionally, it's callous to suggest that healthy women with viable pregnancies at term abruptly change their minds and seek abortion care as the solution.

CNN: What do you think are the biggest misunderstandings about this topic?
Conti: The majority of women having abortions are already mothers and are making the decisions they know to be best for their other children and their families.

One in four women will have an abortion by the time they're 45, which means that very likely, you know or love someone who has had an abortion. If you're not privy to them, it's likely because your outward judgment is isolating those people in your life.

As someone who used to self-identify as anti-choice, I can attest that the biggest misunderstanding about abortion is the framework of hypotheticals vs. reality. All pregnancies carry risks, but some much more than others, and it is the job of the patient to weigh risks and benefits in all medical decisions. Not politicians. Not journalists. Not strangers on Twitter.


Misleading hypotheticals show disregard and contempt for people who have had an abortion later in pregnancy. People who have abortions deserve empathy and understanding, not judgment.

An aside (opinion): I have always said I wish there were no abortions.  I am an advocate for education, free/cheap access to birth control and adoption being the means to that end when used all together.  I also think that the shaming of women who make this choice is one of the worse things we can do as human beings. In my opinion (almost) every woman who chose an abortion has agonized over it and will continue to do so after.  Of course there are exceptions.  But I cannot conceive of making abortion illegal again and risk the safety of the majority.

[BmorePat87]

Really the title of this thread should be: New York passes Roe v Wade into state law.

[GMDino]

Brave woman to go public.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2019/02/19/late-term-abortion-donald-trump-ben-sasse-state-union-column/2881880002/

Quote:I had a later abortion because I couldn't give my baby girl both life and peace


No one loves my baby more than I do. Her death was a gift of mercy. Now, women like me will always be a scapegoat for policies limiting women's rights.

People are talking about me again, loudly, unkindly. Even the president of the United States has had his say about families like mine. I have told this story so many times, but I will tell it again as many times as it takes.

I help run a support group for families who have ended pregnancy after poor prenatal or maternal diagnoses. If you’re wondering, “Who are these women who get abortions in the third trimester?” We are. I am. Parents who love our babies with our entire hearts. Desperate acts like an abortion in the 36th week of pregnancy are brought about only by the most desperate circumstances and are only available to those who can come up with a lot of money quickly.

I know. I’ve been there.

My daughter, Laurel, was diagnosed in May 2012 with catastrophic brain malformations (including Dandy-Walker malformation) that were overlooked until my 35th week of pregnancy. I did not know much about brain disorders at that point. I imagined developmental delay, special education classes, financial pressure, an overhaul of expectations for Laurel’s life and my motherhood. Here were the doctors’ real expectations for Laurel: a brief life of seizures, full-body muscle cramps, and aspirating her own bodily fluids.

A divided Supreme Court stopped Louisiana from enforcing new regulations on abortion clinics in a test of the conservative court’s views on abortion rights. Time

Read more commentary:
I carried my dying daughter to term. It was a lesson in love many didn't understand
Texas made it hard to have my abortion. With Roe at stake, I’m going home to expand access.
Sen. Ben Sasse: Don’t let infanticide be a partisan issue. We can all protect born babies.

When I heard the list of all the things my beloved daughter would not do — talk, walk, hold her head up, swallow — I grasped for what she would be able to do.

“Do children like mine just sleep all the time?” I asked.

The neurologist winced. Children like yours, he told me — slowly — are not often comfortable enough to sleep.

Our choice was sad — but clear 

Let me answer some questions you might be thinking: Yes, we were sure that these problems were severe. No, there is no cure, nor any on the horizon. Yes, we were counseled in-depth on our options, including adoption. Because we wanted to spare our daughter as much suffering as possible, our choice was very sad, but crystal clear: abortion.

Kate Carson in Paris, France, in 2016. (Photo11: Family handout)

I imagined an abortion at eight months would be grisly. But no matter how violent my imagination, it surely could not compare with the suffering Laurel would have endured in her own broken body.

In Massachusetts, my home state, a later abortion can be obtained only if the life or health of the mother is at risk. So I set off on a 2,000-mile journey from Massachusetts to Colorado to access this abortion. I landed, not in the nightmare I had imagined, but in the safest, kindest, most dignified hands I have ever encountered as a patient anywhere. Dr. Warren Hern at his Boulder Abortion Clinic is one of the few doctors in the country performing this procedure. After a single injection and a couple of hours, my baby was laid to rest in my womb, the purest mercy that I knew how to give my Laurel.


As the usual hubbub of hate and misunderstanding around abortion swelled to a roar this month, the president unfairly addressed families like mine in his State of the Union address. He hasn't really listened to women like me or doctors like Dr. Hern. He seems to care nothing for the true stories of heartbreak, loss and extreme medical complexity behind abortion later in pregnancy. Instead, his agenda must inflate fear and horror until every last American thinks of unspeakable violence.

Mercy means something different to each family

This is not about abortion. It is about power. This administration needs the public to be angry at women like me and misinformed about what compels women to seek later abortions, which make up less than 1.5 percent of abortions, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. But I believe that Americans can hear our story and meet the painful, complicated truth about abortions later in pregnancy with love and understanding.

And most Americans have compassion for a woman's choice when it comes to her reproductive health care. In fact, nearly 70 percent of Americans do not want to see the Supreme Court completely overturn Roe v. Wade, according to the Pew Research Center.

Nobody loves Laurel more than I do. Her death was a gift of mercy. Mercy means different things to different loving families, and that has to be OK. To all the families who faced similar circumstances and made a different choice, I honor you. I trust your wisdom. I celebrate your child’s brief and beautiful life.

We must treat each other with love, tenderness and respect. It is horrible, as a parent, to choose between life and peace for our children, especially when we want to give our children both beautiful and precious gifts.

It is devastating to lose a child. But, unlike most bereaved parents, women like me will live out the rest of our lives as scapegoats, fuel for an agenda that seeks to strip women and families of our reproductive freedoms.

When I think of my baby Laurel, I feel love and peace. Unfortunately, I cannot be with that peace because there are fresh wounds in the way, the throbbing pain of being hated and misunderstood.   

Kate Carson is a teacher and mother who lives with her family in the Boston area. Kate is a member of NARAL Pro-Choice America.

Our own story was that we were forced to have both of our children taken early (26 weeks) due to my wife's preeclampsia. A hard enough decision knowing that there are all kinds of risks to the health of our child.  We are one of the fortunate ones that have seen no ill-effects with our son and daughter and for that we are thankful to the amazing doctors and nurses and technology.

I can't imagine having to make that choice that this young woman made.  But I stand with the fact that it is her choice to make.  Not mine.