PFF: Cincinnati did exactly what it should have done

[Sled21]

(05-05-2021, 09:25 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am all over the place with this defense.  I could talk myself in to them being a top 10 unit with a bunch of high-energy, relentless guys that have depth and talent on the defensive line now.  The LBs are a year older and will have a better offseason to prepare, plus they made a few more nice FA acquisitions to prevent the likes of a LeShawn Sims from ever seeing the field again. 

Then, I look at the question marks:  What is Tre Waynes?  Will he be even a solid option at outside CB?  Will the young pass rushers make an impact?  Will Reader start to look like what we thought we were getting?  The depth is massively improved, but there are still a lot of question marks.  I will say this, though:  they will probably have a lot more energy and enthusiasm with an offense that can attack you a number of ways and not always be going 3 and out.  

I don't think Waynes is a question mark. We didn't get to see him play last year, but his pec injury should be way behind him, and we know what he was in Minnesota. My biggest questions are Reader and Hopkins, and how their leg injuries are coming along. Both of them are tough SOBs though and should be ready to go, and Reader seemed really hyped to have Ogunjobi beside him.

[Waite Hoyt]

While thinking about what we should have done I have to say I really liked our draft plan. After signing Reiff we were able to draft Chase and in 2nd round after trading down we addressed the weakest position on offense the Guards. We also signed a place kicker that will enable us to work on short fields with his range.

The other part of the plan many don’t talk much about is we addressed another huge weak area the defense. I can think of at least 3 games we lost by giving up final scoring drives. Getting Tyans and Reader back from injury will be a big plus as well as signing a couple of FA’ in the defensive backfield and on the defensive line. We take another step with our young LB’s and in the draft we added edge rushers that can get to the QB. Our pass rush was a big liability last season. Actually it was just as weak as our offensive line. The front office upgrade all 3 areas of this team in the off season.

[*ochocincos*]

Here is what I would have done....

I would have given Zeitler a multi-year deal (3 years, $24+ mill) to get him to choose CIN over BAL.
That way, RG would have been set.

Going into the draft, the starting OL would have been Williams-Spain/XSF-Hopkins-Zeitler-Reiff

Then in the draft, I would have done the following (only replacing picks with guys who were taken after them):
1) Chase
2) Sam Cosmi, OT Texas - Serve as swing OT this year before taking over for Reiff next year
3) Ossai
4a) Cam Sample
4b) Daviyon Nixon, DT Iowa - I preferred more of a pass rushing IDL over a NT
4c) Imhir Smith-Marsette, WR Iowa - A guy to groom at WR4, can knock off Thomas or Tate
5) McPherson
6a) Elijah Mitchell, RB LA Tech - I liked Mitchell more than Evans as a RB3/4 based on the videos I watched of him in college
6b) Dazz Newsome, WR/PR UNC - I still think Bengals need a backup slot who can handle PR duties to replace Erickson. I do think there are guys on the roster who might be fine doing PR, but they really aren't experienced in PR.
7) Alaric Jackson, OL Iowa - Guy who I think has OT-OG versatility and has the skill set and potential to knock off Johnson from the roster.

EDIT - You may be asking, "What about a C?" Well, I really didn't like any C available on Day 3, so I would have had to replace Ossai, which I didn't want to do. Bengals could go out right now and sign Austin Reiter to hold down the C position if they wanted.

[higgy100]

(05-05-2021, 09:39 AM)Waite Hoyt Wrote: While thinking about what we should have done I have to say I really liked our draft plan. After signing Reiff we were able to draft Chase and in 2nd round after trading down we addressed the weakest position on offense the Guards. We also signed a place kicker that will enable us to work on short fields with his range.

The other part of the plan many don’t talk much about is we addressed another huge weak area the defense. I can think of at least 3 games we lost by giving up final scoring drives. Getting Tyans and  Reader back from injury will be a big plus as well as signing a couple of FA’ in the defensive backfield and on the defensive line. We take another step with our young LB’s and in the draft we added edge rushers that can get to the QB. Our pass rush was a big liability last season. Actually it was just as weak as our offensive line. The front office upgrade all 3 areas of this team in the off season.

Absolutely. Getting Jackson in round 2 as a T would not have been a good pick, imo, but as an interior lineman playing G as well as the capability to play T is fine. Everybody thinks that sacks are given up to DE's but the Bengals got wacked last year by lots of blitz sacks and sacks that collapsed the interior of the OL.

Blitz sacks are easy to give up with zero deep threat at WR but getting a stud like Chase on one end and having that big, long WR in Tee on the other side with a great possession man in Boyd not to mention having your pretty active starting TE back will be huge as this will require the DB's to actually turn their backs to have cover more players.
B

[Whatever]

(05-05-2021, 10:26 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Here is what I would have done....

I would have given Zeitler a multi-year deal (3 years, $24+ mill) to get him to choose CIN over BAL.
That way, RG would have been set.

Going into the draft, the starting OL would have been Williams-Spain/XSF-Hopkins-Zeitler-Reiff

Then in the draft, I would have done the following (only replacing picks with guys who were taken after them):
1) Chase
2) Sam Cosmi, OT Texas - Serve as swing OT this year before taking over for Reiff next year
3) Ossai
4a) Cam Sample
4b) Daviyon Nixon, DT Iowa - I preferred more of a pass rushing IDL over a NT
4c) Imhir Smith-Marsette, WR Iowa - A guy to groom at WR4, can knock off Thomas or Tate
5) McPherson
6a) Elijah Mitchell, RB LA Tech - I liked Mitchell more than Evans as a RB3/4 based on the videos I watched of him in college
6b) Dazz Newsome, WR/PR UNC - I still think Bengals need a backup slot who can handle PR duties to replace Erickson. I do think there are guys on the roster who might be fine doing PR, but they really aren't experienced in PR.
7) Alaric Jackson, OL Iowa - Guy who I think has OT-OG versatility and has the skill set and potential to knock off Johnson from the roster.

EDIT - You may be asking, "What about a C?" Well, I really didn't like any C available on Day 3, so I would have had to replace Ossai, which I didn't want to do. Bengals could go out right now and sign Austin Reiter to hold down the C position if they wanted.

There's no way I pay that for Zeitler.  He's 31 and his PFF rating slid from 76.4 in '19 to 65.9 last year.  $8 mil a year for a 30+ year old G playing at an average level and showing tangible signs of hitting the wall?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-04-2021, 01:16 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

?Bears
?Bengals
?Chargers

✍️@PFF_Anthony's most improved teams in the offseason️https://t.co/hfRKKvDrTE

— PFF (@PFF) May 4, 2021

 


Cincinnati did exactly what it should have done: Transform its offensive line from a liability to an average unit and snag LSU wide receiver Ja’Marr Chase with the fifth overall pick. As an added bonus, the Bengals had one of the most underrated signings of free agency in slot cornerback Mike Hilton.

Cincinnati’s offensive line has been one of the five lowest-graded units in the NFL in each of the past four years. In 2020, the group came in at No. 30 in combined offensive line PFF grade. Left tackle Jonah Williams and center Trey Hopkins were the only players who performed fairly well.

Williams, who missed all of his 2019 rookie year due to injury, produced a blocking grade on true pass sets that ranked in the 87th percentile among tackles. Hopkins now ranks 14th in pass-blocking grade over the past two years among qualifying centers. To help out those two, the Bengals signed right tackle Riley Reiff, who was a Minnesota Vikings cap casualty. Last year, he produced a 73.8 PFF grade and ranked 15th among left tackles in pass-blocking snaps played per sack allowed (gave up just one in 2020).

And in the 2021 NFL Draft, the Bengals used their Round 2 selection on Clemson tackle Jackson Carman, who is actually from the Cincinnati area. Carman was a tackle-to-guard convert right from the get-go. He has fantastic movement skills and advanced independent hand usage. He tries to engage by latching on instead of punching in pass protection; once his hands are in the pads, it’s usually game over for the opposition. Carman showed this in Clemson’s College Football Playoff semifinal against a talented crop of Ohio State edge rushers. He played 14 true pass sets in that game and didn’t allow a single pressure.

Before selecting Carman, though, the Bengals made a franchise-altering pick in Round 1 by taking LSU wide receiver Ja’Marr Chase. He was, of course, Joe Burrow’s top target during the Tigers' historic title run in 2019. Those two formed arguably the best QB-WR connection in the history of college football. Burrow and Chase connected on more touchdowns from 20-plus-yard targets (14) than any duo in the seven years of the PFF College era. There are really few bones to pick with Chase’s play. He will be a nightmare to face in the NFL.

Despite missing the end of his rookie campaign following a gruesome knee injury in Week 11, Burrow still finished as the 16th-most valuable quarterback in the NFL. His deep ball wasn’t as finely tuned as in his historic 2019 season at LSU, but he was money on just about every other throw. In fact, he recorded the sixth-best passing grade in 2020 this year on throws of 19 yards or less downfield.

With a better offensive line that isn’t routinely losing reps quickly after the snap, as well as a true deep threat in Ja’Marr Chase, expect Burrow’s deep ball to come to back life in a breakout sophomore campaign for the signal-caller.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-most-improved-teams-free-agency-2021-nfl-draft

Great stuff, I believe the same. also adding D'Ante Smith and Trey Hill to the O-line and adding Hendrickson, Ogunjobi, Ossai,
Cameron Sample, Wyatt Hubert to the DL to finally get some pressure is what we needed to do horribly bad. We were even 
worse at getting to the passer than blocking for the passer last season.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-05-2021, 12:29 PM)Whatever Wrote: There's no way I pay that for Zeitler.  He's 31 and his PFF rating slid from 76.4 in '19 to 65.9 last year.  $8 mil a year for a 30+ year old G playing at an average level and showing tangible signs of hitting the wall?

$8 mill is overpaying a bit, but the Bengals would have had to overpay to draw him away from an actual contender in BAL, who is paying him 3 years, $22.5 mill ($7.5 mill APY).

You bring up his PFF scores from 19 to 20, but...
1) I'm not going to judge Zeitler on a 1-year decline when he's been good for so long
2) Zeitler's 65.9 is still better than any of the Bengals Gs from last year

And if you're looking at PFF scores and comparing to the contracts they signed...
Joe Thuney is the second-highest paid OG based on APY, at $16 mill. That's more than double what Zeitler is getting.
Thuney was only 10th G in the league last year, with a score of 74.2.

Zeitler was about the same in 2019 as Thuney was (76.4 Zeitler vs 77.4 Thuney).

What Zeitler (or Thuney) would have done is remove the need to get a RG in the draft, allowing them to get someone who projects as a better long-term guy at OT compared to D'Ante Smith and/or could have drafted a better replacement for Hopkins.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-05-2021, 12:35 AM)Benton Wrote: I loved our defensive picks.

I don't think we're going to be a top  10 defense, but I think we're going to be more consistent. We're deeper on defense than we've been in years. Honestly, I think on that side we just need somebody to make a few big plays throughout the year  and spark a few games.

I did too. I'm also much higher on Ogunjobi and Hilton than most.

Ogunjobi can push the pocket and is a way better player than 2020 Atkins.

Our LBs are weak and I have some concerns about our depth on the edge, but theres enough talent to get by. Lou shouldn't have a bottom ranked defense. Or be letting the Ravens break records against us.

[OSUfan]

(05-05-2021, 04:48 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You’re like that Spades partner that bids, “ I got one and five possibles.”

And you continue to be pointless. In sports there is not a sure thing just projection. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-05-2021, 09:35 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I don't think Waynes is a question mark. We didn't get to see him play last year, but his pec injury should be way behind him, and we know what he was in Minnesota. My biggest questions are Reader and Hopkins, and how their leg injuries are coming along. Both of them are tough SOBs though and should be ready to go, and Reader seemed really hyped to have Ogunjobi beside him.

I am pretty confident in Reader and Hopkins.  Waynes, however, didn't do shit in terms of conditioning and injured himself basically walking in to the weight room on his first day.  He whined about his contract (after being paid a shit ton of money) and wasn't in shape when he showed up because he didn't want to injure himself working out.  I can't help but think his injury really happened before he got here.  That guy has a hell of a lot to prove and if he doesn't BIG TIME, he is gone after this year thanks to an out clause in his contract.  Personally, I hope someone steals his job.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-05-2021, 02:31 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am pretty confident in Reader and Hopkins.  Waynes, however, didn't do shit in terms of conditioning and injured himself basically walking in to the weight room on his first day.  He whined about his contract (after being paid a shit ton of money) and wasn't in shape when he showed up because he didn't want to injure himself working out.  I can't help but think his injury really happened before he got here.  That guy has a hell of a lot to prove and if he doesn't BIG TIME, he is gone after this year thanks to an out clause in his contract.  Personally, I hope someone steals his job.  

Waynes is probably my biggest question on Defense myself. Everything you said is true, there are reasons we really attacked
the Secondary in FA in bringing in Awuzie, Hilton, Allen and Apple. Phillips ain't no punk either and if he can stay healthy could
be the answer with his ball hawking skills.

[Sled21]

(05-05-2021, 02:31 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am pretty confident in Reader and Hopkins.  Waynes, however, didn't do shit in terms of conditioning and injured himself basically walking in to the weight room on his first day.  He whined about his contract (after being paid a shit ton of money) and wasn't in shape when he showed up because he didn't want to injure himself working out.  I can't help but think his injury really happened before he got here.  That guy has a hell of a lot to prove and if he doesn't BIG TIME, he is gone after this year thanks to an out clause in his contract.  Personally, I hope someone steals his job.  

The only thing about his contract I remember him whining about, was the fact he couldn't come in and sign it, and was supposedly afraid of injuring himself prior to the signing. I too, however, suspect he injured himself prior to getting here more than I believe he injured himself here. At any rate, that's water under the bridge and I hope he plays as good this season as he did for the Vikings, because he played good ball up there for Zim. If he doesn't, then kike you said, show  him the road. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-05-2021, 02:28 PM)OSUfan Wrote: And you continue to be pointless. In sports there is not a sure thing just projection. 

There isn’t always a projection to a new position they haven’t played before.

And to me, you’ll always be the guy who didn’t see anything special about Luke Kuechly. Nothin’. Not one damn thing. In a draft class that included Kuechly, Hightower, Wagner, Brown, David, Davis, etc; you wanted Nigel Bradham. He was the kind of play maker you look for in a LBer.

While we all have opinions, your’s are particularly cringe. So I see the words you’re typing, but all my brain registers is, “I don’t see anything special about Luke Kuechly.” And then I giggle like a little school girl until my coffee shoots out my nose. So thanks for all the comedy relief over the years.

[Murdock2420]

(05-05-2021, 01:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: $8 mill is overpaying a bit, but the Bengals would have had to overpay to draw him away from an actual contender in BAL, who is paying him 3 years, $22.5 mill ($7.5 mill APY).

You bring up his PFF scores from 19 to 20, but...
1) I'm not going to judge Zeitler on a 1-year decline when he's been good for so long
2) Zeitler's 65.9 is still better than any of the Bengals Gs from last year

And if you're looking at PFF scores and comparing to the contracts they signed...
Joe Thuney is the second-highest paid OG based on APY, at $16 mill. That's more than double what Zeitler is getting.
Thuney was only 10th G in the league last year, with a score of 74.2.

Zeitler was about the same in 2019 as Thuney was (76.4 Zeitler vs 77.4 Thuney).

What Zeitler (or Thuney) would have done is remove the need to get a RG in the draft, allowing them to get someone who projects as a better long-term guy at OT compared to D'Ante Smith and/or could have drafted a better replacement for Hopkins.

Signing Zeitler would have just resulted in the team not re-signing Spain.

Zeitler starts at one G spot, Carman at the other with XSF as the back-up.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-05-2021, 05:01 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Signing Zeitler would have just resulted in the team not re-signing Spain.

Zeitler starts at one G spot, Carman at the other with XSF as the back-up.

It shouldn't have though is my point.
Zeitler at RG and still re-sign Spain to compete with XSF for LG.
That way, you can get what most would consider more of a true OT in Rd 2 to groom behind Reiff.

[Murdock2420]

(05-05-2021, 05:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It shouldn't have though is my point.
Zeitler at RG and still re-sign Spain to compete with XSF for LG.
That way, you can get what most would consider more of a true OT in Rd 2 to groom behind Reiff.

Eh maybe, but most of the true OT in this draft went in one and earlier in round two or there are experimental guys you could take later and hope they pan out as the Bengals did in round 4. When you really look at the OL class from this season, the depth was guys who played tackle but would need to move inside. The actually list of guys who will play tackle in the pro game at a high level is pretty short.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-05-2021, 05:23 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Eh maybe, but most of the true OT in this draft went in one and earlier in round two or there are experimental guys you could take later and hope they pan out as the Bengals did in round 4. When you really look at the OL class from this season, the depth was guys who played tackle but would need to move inside. The actually list of guys who will play tackle in the pro game at a high level is pretty short.

Sam Cosmi Rd 2 was available when Carman was selected. Dillon Radunz, Brady Christensen, and Spencer Brown were too.
You don't think any of those 4 will play OT in the NFL?

[Murdock2420]

(05-05-2021, 05:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Sam Cosmi Rd 2 was available when Carman was selected. Dillon Radunz, Brady Christensen, and Spencer Brown were too.
You don't think any of those 4 will play OT in the NFL?

Cosmi yes.

Radunz is a possibility but needs development.

Spencer Brown is another guy that could but needs to develop from a smaller school.

Christensen has a decent chance as well.

Like I said the list of guys that can step in and play year one at tackle was short. Sewell, Darrisaw, Cosmi, Leatherwood. Then you have Christensen who might be ready, the guy from Stanford who might recover from injuries and play well. Eichenberg... eh we will see what happens.

Then there is a good list of guys who might develop into tackles with time like Radunz who could be amazing but you have to groom him, same as Brown.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-05-2021, 02:39 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Waynes is probably my biggest question on Defense myself. Everything you said is true, there are reasons we really attacked
the Secondary in FA in bringing in Awuzie, Hilton, Allen and Apple. Phillips ain't no punk either and if he can stay healthy could
be the answer with his ball hawking skills.

If Phillips can put it all together and stay healthy with better consistency he will be in line for a nice second contract, a la Carl Lawson.

I am sure he is well aware of that.  I loved how they used Phillips in the first Baltimore game.  That is probably what they see Hilton being each week, but Phillips had an insane game, statistically.  He is a total enigma, though, and you never seem to know which Phillips you are going to get.  Like the way WJIII was playing against Miami, and then other games he was a total dud.  Odd.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-05-2021, 05:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It shouldn't have though is my point.
Zeitler at RG and still re-sign Spain to compete with XSF for LG.
That way, you can get what most would consider more of a true OT in Rd 2 to groom behind Reiff.

(05-05-2021, 11:33 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Cosmi yes.

Radunz is a possibility but needs development.

Spencer Brown is another guy that could but needs to develop from a smaller school.

Christensen has a decent chance as well.

Like I said the list of guys that can step in and play year one at tackle was short. Sewell, Darrisaw, Cosmi, Leatherwood. Then you have Christensen who might be ready, the guy from Stanford who might recover from injuries and play well. Eichenberg... eh we will see what happens.

Then there is a good list of guys who might develop into tackles with time like Radunz who could be amazing but you have to groom him, same as Brown.

I think that's exactly what Ocho had in mind since he said the guy would be groomed behind Reiff. So needing to develop or not being a year one starter isn't a problem for Ocho's plan there in that scenario. A guy who sits the whole year behind a hopefully healthy Jonah/Reiff and then steps in ready to go 2022.

(Not that personally I would bet on Jonah staying healthy, and Reiff will probably miss a game or two at least.)