Pence staff threatens action against reporter

[GMDino]

(05-03-2020, 08:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Unsure why you quoted me instead of Fred as he asserted what I would do and I think we both know it was an attempt at belittlement. 

I've said numerous times that Pence should be ashamed of himself. Is it too much to ask that the business that let him in should be ashamed as well?

Several posters, including me, have said they should be ashamed too, but that isn't the point...that is diversion.

Pence is the VP and he's "heading" the Corona task force.  He needs to lead by example too.

Besides, he admitted he knew and didn't wear one so it's still on him.

Asked about not wearing a mask at the Mayo Clinic, Pence starts making excuses for himself ("you wear a mask to prevent you from conveying the coronavirus to other people," which is a bad excuse b/c he can't be sure he didn't have it), but then says, "I should have worn a mask." pic.twitter.com/Gl6pTwUJxU

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) May 4, 2020

Of course that will be spun by some into "He is so brave for admitting he was wrong" while still insisting he wasn't wrong.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 01:36 AM)hollodero Wrote: Isn't the business that let him in way more irrelevant than the VP?

I know I have to wear masks in hospitals, and when I walk into a hospital without one most people will call me an idiot, and only a few people would be troubled about the add-on question if the hospital should feel ashamed as well.

Especially if I were to be everyone's boss and the prime fighter of the epidemic we all fight. 

I have an assumption that if Hillary had done the same, this whole 'should the clinic be ashamed as well' question would not quite bear such importance for you either.

And yeah in that sense, it's a bit much to ask to ignore said assumption.

Not in this case.  It is a hospital policy based upon CDC guidelines as well as organizational/local guidelines.  It is the hospital's responsibility to educate visitors on their policy and to enforce it. Under normal circumstances, most people don't have to wear masks when visiting the hospital except in specific situations when droplet and aerosol precautions are needed.  And even then only in specific locations within the hospital. I think we can infer from the pictures they were educated on the policy because everyone was wearing a mask except for the Vice President.  Now, the VP is not a subject matter expert on infectious disease so the hospital should have educated him on why he needed to wear a mask.  Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  Maybe they did and he refused.  If he refused, they should have refused to allow him to tour their campus until he complied.  I will say this, often there is a disconnect between providers and administrators because the administrators aren't experts in medical care, either, and don't always listen to medical advice.

Part of the reason for the current CDC recommendations for everyone to wear a mask in public is because up to 25% of people with Covid-19 don't show any symptoms.  Even if Pence tested negative that morning, he could still be an asymptomatic carrier because sometimes you haven't been infected long enough to turn the test from negative to positive.  That's one of the reasons we need to do serial testing in some cases.

[hollodero]

(05-04-2020, 10:17 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Not in this case.  It is a hospital policy based upon CDC guidelines as well as organizational/local guidelines.  It is the hospital's responsibility to educate visitors on their policy and to enforce it. Under normal circumstances, most people don't have to wear masks when visiting the hospital except in specific situations when droplet and aerosol precautions are needed.  And even then only in specific locations within the hospital. I think we can infer from the pictures they were educated on the policy because everyone was wearing a mask except for the Vice President.  Now, the VP is not a subject matter expert on infectious disease so the hospital should have educated him on why he needed to wear a mask.  Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.  Maybe they did and he refused.  If he refused, they should have refused to allow him to tour their campus until he complied.  I will say this, often there is a disconnect between providers and administrators because the administrators aren't experts in medical care, either, and don't always listen to medical advice.

Part of the reason for the current CDC recommendations for everyone to wear a mask in public is because up to 25% of people with Covid-19 don't show any symptoms.  Even if Pence tested negative that morning, he could still be an asymptomatic carrier because sometimes you haven't been infected long enough to turn the test from negative to positive.  That's one of the reasons we need to do serial testing in some cases.

I understand.
There are also things I don't know, like what happened before the visit. Maybe they were just told by secret service to shut up and the VP will of course carry on and do as he pleases. Then what do you do. Pull your gun and arrest them? Threaten seppuku?
Maybe it was not quite that extreme, maybe people just thought, well the actual risk is quite low and maybe it would be better for us and for all current and future patients to not pick a fight with Trump world. And one could sure debate if that is understandable or not understandable, but I really deem that a less relevant discussion. For starters, I don't even know the circumstances. The one thing I know is Pence is standing there without a mask, setting a horrible example and that he is the one to blame for himself. And to his credit, he seems to admit as much now.

[*bfine32*]

(05-04-2020, 09:09 AM)GMDino Wrote: Several posters, including me, have said they should be ashamed too, but that isn't the point...that is diversion.

Pence is the VP and he's "heading" the Corona task force.  He needs to lead by example too.

Besides, he admitted he knew and didn't wear one so it's still on him.

Asked about not wearing a mask at the Mayo Clinic, Pence starts making excuses for himself ("you wear a mask to prevent you from conveying the coronavirus to other people," which is a bad excuse b/c he can't be sure he didn't have it), but then says, "I should have worn a mask." pic.twitter.com/Gl6pTwUJxU

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) May 4, 2020

Of course that will be spun by some into "He is so brave for admitting he was wrong" while still insisting he wasn't wrong.

Why can't a facility designed to provide care allowing a visitor to jeopardize their staff and patients be the point? Is it because it doesn't bash the Trump admin?

Breech is a healthcare provider that hates the Trump Admin, but he's rational enough to realize this is the point.

As Dan Crenshaw said: There's always two answers depending on if you motive is to find the truth or make the Trump admin look bad. 

[GMDino]

(05-04-2020, 11:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Why can't a facility designed to provide care allowing a visitor to jeopardize their staff and patients be the point? Is it because it doesn't bash the Trump admin?

Breech is a healthcare provider that hates the Trump Admin, but he's rational enough to realize this is the point.

As Dan Crenshaw said: There's always two answers depending on if you motive is to find the truth or make the Trump admin look bad. 

It can't be the point when it being used to continuously defend the other guy who should be ashamed.

They told him he did what he wanted anyway and he's the VP of the US who would probably have listened if bfine had told him (they "always"" do) but you weren't there so Pence arrogantly did whatever he wanted, then lied about why he did it.  And you're still trying to shift the blame while saying he should be "ashamed" when he says he wasn't and isn't.

That's why.

Not that you really care.  You just want to argue. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 11:39 AM)hollodero Wrote: I understand.
There are also things I don't know, like what happened before the visit. Maybe they were just told by secret service to shut up and the VP will of course carry on and do as he pleases. Then what do you do. Pull your gun and arrest them? Threaten seppuku?
Maybe it was not quite that extreme, maybe people just thought, well the actual risk is quite low and maybe it would be better for us and for all current and future patients to not pick a fight with Trump world. And one could sure debate if that is understandable or not understandable, but I really deem that a less relevant discussion. For starters, I don't even know the circumstances. The one thing I know is Pence is standing there without a mask, setting a horrible example and that he is the one to blame for himself. And to his credit, he seems to admit as much now.

Either he knew the policy and refused to wear a mask or he didn't know and didn't follow CDC recommendations.

1) If he didn't know it is up to the Mayo Clinic to educate visitors of their masking policy.

2) If he did know, but refused to mask it is still up to the Mayo Clinic to enforce their policy when visitors are non-compliant. Even VIPs.

From experience, I can almost all but guarantee a hospital administrator waived Mayo's policy for the VP or more likely just looked the other way rather than confront the VP for not wearing a mask.

If you're average citizens walked in off the street to visit a family member at the Mayo Clinic, do you think the Mayo Clinic would allow them to walk around without a mass?

[*bfine32*]

(05-04-2020, 12:06 PM)GMDino Wrote: It can't be the point when it being used to continuously defend the other guy who should be ashamed.

They told him he did what he wanted anyway and he's the VP of the US who would probably have listened if bfine had told him (they "always"" do) but you weren't there so Pence arrogantly did whatever he wanted, then lied about why he did it.  And you're still trying to shift the blame while saying he should be "ashamed" when he says he wasn't and isn't.

That's why.

Not that you really care.  You just want to argue. 

I have not said one word to defend Pence's actions you're just making that up. 

As to the snark: uncalled for. 

[hollodero]

(05-04-2020, 12:21 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Either he knew the policy and refused to wear a mask or he didn't know and didn't follow CDC recommendations.

1) If he didn't know it is up to the Mayo Clinic to educate visitors of their masking policy.

2) If he did know, but refused to mask it is still up to the Mayo Clinic to enforce their policy when visitors are non-compliant. Even VIPs.

From experience, I can almost all but guarantee a hospital administrator waived Mayo's policy for the VP or more likely just looked the other way rather than confront the VP for not wearing a mask.

If you're average citizens walked in off the street to visit a family member at the Mayo Clinic, do you think the Mayo Clinic would allow them to walk around without a mass?

Walk around without a mass, no I don't think so, the laws of gravity would not apply and he might not so much walk as float around uncontrollably. Sorry. I don't know why I did that. I agree with the statement and it was part of my own point.

As for the rest, I believe your almost guarantee, I'd guess this is what happened, though I would not know for certain of course. I have a slight issue with point 1) beacuse as the top person responsible for fighting the epidemic it is unacceptable to not know to wear a mask in hospital.

I have a bigger issue if the clinic's misdeed is set on par with Pence's misdeed. No matter what, it would have been in Pence's sole power to avoid that situation and he chose not to for whatever reason. I have my guesses why. That the clinic might have done wrong too does nothing to diminish the blame Pence deserves, and imho it's not equally noteworthy either. One is the VP, the other ones potentially intimidated clinic staff.

[GMDino]

(05-04-2020, 12:21 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Either he knew the policy and refused to wear a mask or he didn't know and didn't follow CDC recommendations.

1) If he didn't know it is up to the Mayo Clinic to educate visitors of their masking policy.

2) If he did know, but refused to mask it is still up to the Mayo Clinic to enforce their policy when visitors are non-compliant. Even VIPs.

From experience, I can almost all but guarantee a hospital administrator waived Mayo's policy for the VP or more likely just looked the other way rather than confront the VP for not wearing a mask.

If you're average citizens walked in off the street to visit a family member at the Mayo Clinic, do you think the Mayo Clinic would allow them to walk around without a mass?

(05-04-2020, 01:07 PM)hollodero Wrote: Walk around without a mass, no I don't think so, the laws of gravity would not apply and he might not so much walk as float around uncontrollably. Sorry. I don't know why I did that. I agree with the statement and it was part of my own point.

As for the rest, I believe your almost guarantee, I'd guess this is what happened, though I would not know for certain of course. I have a slight issue with point 1) beacuse as the top person responsible for fighting the epidemic it is unacceptable to not know to wear a mask in hospital.

I have a bigger issue if the clinic's misdeed is set on par with Pence's misdeed. No matter what, it would have been in Pence's sole power to avoid that situation and he chose not to for whatever reason. I have my guesses why. That the clinic might have done wrong too does nothing to diminish the blame Pence deserves, and imho it's not equally noteworthy either. One is the VP, the other ones potentially intimidated clinic staff.

If someone told him *HE* was allowed to not wear a mask it would only be because he TOLD THEM he wasn't going to wear a mask.  They wouldn't just say he didn't have too for no reason.

And he STILL lied (twice) about why he didn't wear one and then started wearing one due to public pressure.

He pulled rank and without some brave soul there that higher ranked people always listen to to change his ways he is to blame for that no matter how much blame we want to put on the clinic.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 01:07 PM)hollodero Wrote: Walk around without a mass, no I don't think so, the laws of gravity would not apply and he might not so much walk as float around uncontrollably. Sorry. I don't know why I did that. I agree with the statement and it was part of my own point.

As for the rest, I believe your almost guarantee, I'd guess this is what happened, though I would not know for certain of course. I have a slight issue with point 1) beacuse as the top person responsible for fighting the epidemic it is unacceptable to not know to wear a mask in hospital.

I have a bigger issue if the clinic's misdeed is set on par with Pence's misdeed. No matter what, it would have been in Pence's sole power to avoid that situation and he chose not to for whatever reason. I have my guesses why. That the clinic might have done wrong too does nothing to diminish the blame Pence deserves, and imho it's not equally noteworthy either. One is the VP, the other ones potentially intimidated clinic staff.

I understand, but Pence is a politician not a healthcare provider.  He is following the advice of his health advisors.  I know from experience and from studies people remember about 35% of their doctor's advice correctly.  He may not have understood the advice, he may have recalled the advice incorrectly, or he may have flat out refused.  But, to his credit, he has stated he should have worn a mask after the fact. At the very least it appears he has learned a lesson from this mistake.  Whereas Trump announced the CDC's new masking recommendations and with the next breath said he wouldn't follow them.

As for the Mayo Clinic's responsibility, if they refused to allow him to conduct his tour without a mask there wouldn't be any pictures of Pence not wearing a mask.  I'm of the opinion Pence refused to wear the mask.  But, the Mayo Clinic permitted him to do so.

[fredtoast]

(05-04-2020, 11:39 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Why can't a facility designed to provide care allowing a visitor to jeopardize their staff and patients be the point? 

Because I believe in personal responsibility.

"Ooooh, Don't blame the crime on the poor little criminal.  Blame it on the police for failing to stop him. This is all their fault." 

[GMDino]

(05-04-2020, 01:49 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I understand, but Pence is a politician not a healthcare provider.  He is following the advice of his health advisors.  I know from experience and from studies people remember about 35% of their doctor's advice correctly.  He may not have understood the advice, he may have recalled the advice incorrectly, or he may have flat out refused.  But, to his credit, he has stated he should have worn a mask after the fact. At the very least it appears he has learned a lesson from this mistake.  Whereas Trump announced the CDC's new masking recommendations and with the next breath said he wouldn't follow them.

As for the Mayo Clinic's responsibility, if they refused to allow him to conduct his tour without a mask there wouldn't be any pictures of Pence not wearing a mask.  I'm of the opinion Pence refused to wear the mask.  But, the Mayo Clinic permitted him to do so.

If he didn't understand or didn't know he shouldn't be leading the virus group.  Period.

He only admitted he should wear one after his two lies were called out.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 01:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: If someone told him *HE* was allowed to not wear a mask it would only be because he TOLD THEM he wasn't going to wear a mask.  They wouldn't just say he didn't have too for no reason.

If someone told him that it was most likely an administrator. Politicians and administrators are not healthcare providers and may not always understand the reasons behind policies or when to apply them or who to apply them.

Quote:And he STILL lied (twice) about why he didn't wear one

I think he probably did lie, but that is a separate issue after the fact.

Quote:and then started wearing one due to public pressure.

Maybe. Or maybe his health advisors clarified the recommendations so he understood them better which is why he stated he should have worn a mask. I don't know. And can't say one way or the other without a high degree of certainty.

Quote:He pulled rank and without some brave soul there that higher ranked people always listen to to change his ways he is to blame for that no matter how much blame we want to put on the clinic.

Maybe. But, visitors who don't follow hospital policy can be removed from the property. Even VIPs. I'm sure they just didn't want to get into a pissing contest, but that doesn't relieve them of their responsibility to enforce their own policies.

[GMDino]

(05-04-2020, 02:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If someone told him that it was most likely an administrator.  Politicians and administrators are not healthcare providers and may not always understand the reasons behind policies or when to apply them or who to apply them.


I think he probably did lie, but that is a separate issue after the fact.


Maybe.  Or maybe his health advisors clarified the recommendations so he understood them better which is why he stated he should have worn a mask.  I don't know.  And can't say one way or the other without a high degree of certainty.


Maybe.  But, visitors who don't follow hospital policy can be removed from the property.  Even VIPs.  I'm sure they just didn't want to get into a pissing contest, but that doesn't relieve them of their responsibility to enforce their own policies.

I agree with the bold.  I never said the clinic didn't have some fault.  I also didn't use that to shift blame from the guy who said 1) I didn't wear a mask because I wanted to look people in the eye and 2) They never told me.

He lied and some would use the clinic backing down as an excuse to cover for him.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 01:51 PM)GMDino Wrote: If he didn't understand or didn't know he shouldn't be leading the virus group.  Period.

He only admitted he should wear one after his two lies were called out.

Most Commanders in Chief don't have military experience, but they are in charge of the military.

But, he did admit it.  Unlike his boss.

[GMDino]

(05-04-2020, 02:27 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Most Commanders in Chief don't have military experience, but they are in charge of the military.

But, he did admit it.  Unlike his boss.

Trump will never wear a mask despite being a huge germaphobe.

Pence is just showing to be as dumb as him.

[BmorePat87]

(05-04-2020, 02:27 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Most Commanders in Chief don't have military experience, but they are in charge of the military.

But, he did admit it.  Unlike his boss.

Historically most have (31 of 44 individuals had some role). 3 of the last 4 not having any is actually a deviation from the norm. We had a 70 year stretch from 1841-1913 when the only person who hadn't served was Cleveland and then the longest dry spell between Wilson and FDR and then nearly 50 years from Truman to Bush Sr.

some might argue how extensive the service is (national guard and non-combat roles), but for a long time it was a big qualification for prospective candidates. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-04-2020, 02:59 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Historically most have (31 of 44 individuals had some role). 3 of the last 4 not having any is actually a deviation from the norm. We had a 70 year stretch from 1841-1913 when the only person who hadn't served was Cleveland and then the longest dry spell between Wilson and FDR and then nearly 50 years from Truman to Bush Sr.

some might argue how extensive the service is (national guard and non-combat roles), but for a long time it was a big qualification for prospective candidates. 

thanks for the correction

[hollodero]

(05-04-2020, 01:49 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I understand, but Pence is a politician not a healthcare provider.  He is following the advice of his health advisors.  I know from experience and from studies people remember about 35% of their doctor's advice correctly.  He may not have understood the advice, he may have recalled the advice incorrectly, or he may have flat out refused.  But, to his credit, he has stated he should have worn a mask after the fact.

I gave him said credit. But my money is on option number three, he refused or at least willfully decided against the mask in the first place. By all means, I get that Pence is not a medical expert, but forgetting to wear a mask in a hospital would mean he did not grasp the most basic elements of fighting a pandemic, and this cannot quite be the case for the person responsible for fighting it. Especially when everyone around you wears one.

I'd rather guess it was a deliberate gesture, in line with the attempts of Trump world to be their own opposition on all the Corona measures. An attempt that did not play out well. The alternative to deliberation would be that Pence is an utterly incompetent and mindless person. Which one is worse, I don't know. But no matter what, I find it hard to excuse - except, credit again, for the fact that he himself showed remorse. 

[*bfine32*]

(05-04-2020, 01:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because I believe in personal responsibility.

"Ooooh, Don't blame the crime on the poor little criminal.  Blame it on the police for failing to stop him. This is all their fault." 

That kinda made sense in your head a little bit didn't it? But now that you actually typed it you can see it doesn't.


Not one person in the thread has said don't blame Pence. That's just something you and Dino made up because.....