Question For Fred & Other Pro-Choice People

[*michaelsean*]

(09-10-2021, 03:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Because she has a right to her bodily autonomy. The unborn is not a person. They are not a citizen with rights. The pregnant woman is and the government cannot restrict the rights of a citizen without due process of the law.

But they do. Even with abortion. If there isn’t abortion on demand up until birth that’s what you have done.

You don’t have to be a citizen to have rights, also I’m not sure how you state to categorically a fetus isn’t a person.

In my opinion the genie is already out of the bottle and it’s not going back in, and I understand but the callousness so many people show towards abortion is saddening.

[*Nately120*]

(09-10-2021, 06:09 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Is the fetus doing the work?

Hard to say, but you have two people there working for you so it's more than 1 person.

[BFritz21]

(09-10-2021, 10:40 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Hard to say, but you have two people there working for you so it's more than 1 person.

But only one is working, so why would you pay the person a wage for working when they're not working?

[*Nately120*]

(09-10-2021, 11:38 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But only one is working, so why would you pay the person a wage for working when they're not working?

Well what if it's a job with hazard pay since two lives are involved?  And can women buy life insurance for the unborn?  That might actually be a thing.

[BFritz21]

(09-10-2021, 11:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well what if it's a job with hazard pay since two lives are involved?  And can women buy life insurance for the unborn?  That might actually be a thing.

Answer my question first.

[*Nately120*]

(09-10-2021, 11:57 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Answer my question first.

I will not, because your question implies that the kid is some sort of freeloader that is unable to put in work.

[Benton]

One of my employees is having to file a loa because shes a couple months along but having to have a medically induced miscarriage. It's pretty heartbreaking.

So is trying to legislate that she should have to continue as she currently is for 6-7 months.

[BigPapaKain]

Brad keeps using fetus. He should probably look up when a zygote becomes a fetus.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(09-10-2021, 02:50 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Her body is her body and she wants to remove the unwanted fingers, hearts and toes (that are not her body) from her body. 

This is probably one of the worst ***** arguments I’ve ever heard

[NATI BENGALS]

(09-11-2021, 12:20 AM)Benton Wrote: One of my employees is having to file a loa because shes a couple months along but having to have a medically induced miscarriage. It's pretty heartbreaking.

So is trying to legislate that she should have to continue as she currently is for 6-7 months.

Wow that’s pretty crazy. It’s almost like there are unique individual scenarios involved in all of these pregnancies and throwing some cookie cutter law and forcing women to do what you want them to do because you and a bunch of other men said so is taking away their free will and individual rights and could actually cause bodily harm.

[CJD]

(09-11-2021, 09:32 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: This is probably one of the worst ***** arguments I’ve ever heard

The question was phrased extremely stupidly. Answering with his silly framing is going to sound inherently silly.

[BFritz21]

(09-11-2021, 12:00 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I will not, because your question implies that the kid is some sort of freeloader that is unable to put in work.

Kid?  You're arguing that it's not a kid and just a group of cells.

You acknowledging that it's a kid means that you're admitting it's murder.

Thanks for helping out!

[BigPapaKain]

(09-11-2021, 11:38 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Kid?  You're arguing that it's not a kid and just a group of cells.

You acknowledging that it's a kid means that you're admitting it's murder.

Thanks for helping out!

So then you agree a pregnant woman should be paid for the second person she's carrying and every company needs to be bent over for violating child labor laws.

Good to know.

[*Nately120*]

(09-11-2021, 11:38 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Kid?  You're arguing that it's not a kid and just a group of cells.

You acknowledging that it's a kid means that you're admitting it's murder.

Thanks for helping out!

I'm just playing the semantics game, here.  If  you think what this country needs is more poor people, then by all means make it a pro-life country and then gleefully spend the rest of your life pointing the finger of blame at an even higher percentage of this country than you already do.

Watch the BLM riot footage again and then tell me how much you wish there were twice as many people there burning the country down.

[BFritz21]

(09-11-2021, 02:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm just playing the semantics game, here.  If  you think what this country needs is more poor people, then by all means make it a pro-life country and then gleefully spend the rest of your life pointing the finger of blame at an even higher percentage of this country than you already do.

Watch the BLM riot footage again and then tell me how much you wish there were twice as many people there burning the country down.

All kids that would otherwise be aborted end up poor or rioting?

lol.

Just when I think I've heard it all.........

[Belsnickel]

(09-10-2021, 06:09 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: But it’s not her body unless she has 20 fingers, toes, etc, it’s not her body.

You're making an argument against a point I did not make. I am not saying the cluster of cells inside her is her body. I am saying her body is her body, and she has the right to autonomy over it.

(09-10-2021, 08:26 PM)michaelsean Wrote: But they do. Even with abortion. If there isn’t abortion on demand up until birth that’s what you have done.

I agree. Which is why I'm not for putting a cutoff on it.

(09-10-2021, 08:26 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You don’t have to be a citizen to have rights, also I’m not sure how you state to categorically a fetus isn’t a person.

I'm aware you don't have to be a citizen to have rights, though some do require citizenship. However, all rights enumerated are expressed as being for a person. Do the unborn have a name, birthdate, SSN or other ID number? The whole crux of the abortion debate is personhood, but that isn't the way the argument gets framed most of the time. When does a person become a person? The reason this is important is because until the unborn is a person, they have no individual human rights. They have no rights to their own life, let alone that of their host. It is because of this that the person carrying the unborn should have complete autonomy over their own body in this instance.

The issue is that our law is inconsistent on the issue of personhood for the unborn, and it needs to be rectified. Unfortunately, there are many opinions on it and it is a very old philosophical question. Some people claim that personhood starts at fertilization, others at birth, and some say somewhere in-between. According to Jewish law, it is a person at birth. Catholics try to push conception. Islam says 120 days. And then, of course, there are many other different ways to measure it.

Anyway, I go with birth. I do this because I'm a bureaucrat. You can't claim tax credits until birth. You can't get an SSN until birth. They don't issue a birth certificate until, well, birth. These are things that mark personhood with the government and that is what I go with.

(09-10-2021, 08:26 PM)michaelsean Wrote: In my opinion the genie is already out of the bottle and it’s not going back in, and I understand but the callousness so many people show towards abortion is saddening.

I am not callous about it. I seek to reduce abortions as much as possible. However, I want to find ways to prevent the desire some have to seek abortions. Ready access to affordable family planning services. Paid maternity and paternity leave that is actually meaningful. Significant efforts to make childcare more affordable. Universal basic income. Etc. Etc. These policies will do far more to reduce the number of abortions in this country than outlawing the practice ever would.

I'm trying to take care of the people of this country, not push my morality on them. My personal views on the morality of abortion are not expressed in my political opinions.

[jmccracky]

(09-11-2021, 08:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You're making an argument against a point I did not make. I am not saying the cluster of cells inside her is her body. I am saying her body is her body, and she has the right to autonomy over it.


I agree. Which is why I'm not for putting a cutoff on it.


I'm aware you don't have to be a citizen to have rights, though some do require citizenship. However, all rights enumerated are expressed as being for a person. Do the unborn have a name, birthdate, SSN or other ID number? The whole crux of the abortion debate is personhood, but that isn't the way the argument gets framed most of the time. When does a person become a person? The reason this is important is because until the unborn is a person, they have no individual human rights. They have no rights to their own life, let alone that of their host. It is because of this that the person carrying the unborn should have complete autonomy over their own body in this instance.

The issue is that our law is inconsistent on the issue of personhood for the unborn, and it needs to be rectified. Unfortunately, there are many opinions on it and it is a very old philosophical question. Some people claim that personhood starts at fertilization, others at birth, and some say somewhere in-between. According to Jewish law, it is a person at birth. Catholics try to push conception. Islam says 120 days. And then, of course, there are many other different ways to measure it.

Anyway, I go with birth. I do this because I'm a bureaucrat. You can't claim tax credits until birth. You can't get an SSN until birth. They don't issue a birth certificate until, well, birth. These are things that mark personhood with the government and that is what I go with.


I am not callous about it. I seek to reduce abortions as much as possible. However, I want to find ways to prevent the desire some have to seek abortions. Ready access to affordable family planning services. Paid maternity and paternity leave that is actually meaningful. Significant efforts to make childcare more affordable. Universal basic income. Etc. Etc. These policies will do far more to reduce the number of abortions in this country than outlawing the practice ever would.

I'm trying to take care of the people of this country, not push my morality on them. My personal views on the morality of abortion are not expressed in my political opinions.

I could not have said the last two paragraphs, better. Thats pretty spot on to where I am with the whole abortion thing. 

One thing that I am trying to understand, and I know a lot of people absolutely believe this. Remember when Trump said "at 9 months they can just rip the baby out if they don't want it"? I remember him saying something like that, so I could be a little off on the wording and context. But I know a lot of pro lifers that believe that the mother just decides at 9 months she doesn't want it, and they just pull the baby out and dismember it. Lol. They believe its just doctors murdering babies. 

Anyway....why do they believe that? Has something happened in which a doctor and a patient did this? Was there a clinic that was doing these types of practices? What am I not seeing? (Question isn't just for you Bels. I'm really curious lol)

[*michaelsean*]

(09-11-2021, 08:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You're making an argument against a point I did not make. I am not saying the cluster of cells inside her is her body. I am saying her body is her body, and she has the right to autonomy over it.


I agree. Which is why I'm not for putting a cutoff on it.


I'm aware you don't have to be a citizen to have rights, though some do require citizenship. However, all rights enumerated are expressed as being for a person. Do the unborn have a name, birthdate, SSN or other ID number? The whole crux of the abortion debate is personhood, but that isn't the way the argument gets framed most of the time. When does a person become a person? The reason this is important is because until the unborn is a person, they have no individual human rights. They have no rights to their own life, let alone that of their host. It is because of this that the person carrying the unborn should have complete autonomy over their own body in this instance.

The issue is that our law is inconsistent on the issue of personhood for the unborn, and it needs to be rectified. Unfortunately, there are many opinions on it and it is a very old philosophical question. Some people claim that personhood starts at fertilization, others at birth, and some say somewhere in-between. According to Jewish law, it is a person at birth. Catholics try to push conception. Islam says 120 days. And then, of course, there are many other different ways to measure it.

Anyway, I go with birth. I do this because I'm a bureaucrat. You can't claim tax credits until birth. You can't get an SSN until birth. They don't issue a birth certificate until, well, birth. These are things that mark personhood with the government and that is what I go with.


I am not callous about it. I seek to reduce abortions as much as possible. However, I want to find ways to prevent the desire some have to seek abortions. Ready access to affordable family planning services. Paid maternity and paternity leave that is actually meaningful. Significant efforts to make childcare more affordable. Universal basic income. Etc. Etc. These policies will do far more to reduce the number of abortions in this country than outlawing the practice ever would.

I'm trying to take care of the people of this country, not push my morality on them. My personal views on the morality of abortion are not expressed in my political opinions.

That was just a general statement.

[BmorePat87]

Roe v Wade is pretty clear that the 14th Amendment, and the Constitution as a whole, does not refer to a fetus or embryo when using the word "person". They also suggested that when those in medicine, theology, and philosophy cannot agree on when "life" begins, they certainly cannot answer that question either. The importance, they say, is then put on viability (24-28 weeks) as being when the state's interest in preserving life overrides a woman's right to privacy over her body.

[*Nately120*]

(09-11-2021, 05:06 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: All kids that would otherwise be aborted end up poor or rioting?

lol.

Just when I think I've heard it all.........

Ok, well you seem to think people who get abortions are going to raise awesome kids as long as we force them to be born.  You clearly have more faith in poor desperate people than I do.  Why don't we just open the borders and let a bunch of poor desperate people in the country now and cut to the chase?