(05-21-2019, 05:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I agree and you should direct your concern to the OP. My position on abortion has 0 to do with religious beliefs. I do believe it is a sin to take one of God's creations simply for your convenience, but that's a personal belief and one I speak directly with God about. Because I too sin.
My overt stance has always been about taking an innocent life and the rights of the father.
I have a hard time believing your religion doesn't come into play when you specifically make a distinction of "innocent" life. Who is innocent and who isn't? Maybe you include your religion by one of those unconscious decisions you've talked about?
(05-21-2019, 06:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yet the only ones bringing religion into the discussion are Pro Choicers. Do you know why that is? Because it's easier to argue against religion than it is the taking of a life.
As to your question: Not fair at all, but guess what he's required by law to do if identified? He has no choice,
As a Christian and a retired soldier, why is it okay for a soldier to take life?
I particularly enjoyed those pre-battle prayers by the Chaplain; please Lord help us kill our enemies blah, blah, blah. LOL
(05-21-2019, 06:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yet the only ones bringing religion into the discussion are Pro Choicers. Do you know why that is? Because it's easier to argue against religion than it is the taking of a life.
As to your question: Not fair at all, but guess what he's required by law to do if identified? He has no choice,
I think once safe and legal abortion is properly and securely guaranteed, then men's ability for paper abortion is a very reasonable next step.
(05-21-2019, 06:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I didn't realize how poorly educated you were on this issue.
The reason we bring religion into the issue is because the religious right are obsessed with abortion. Almost all of the Pro Life movement is tied to the church.
So maybe you should educate yourself little more instead of looking stupid for accusing the Pro Choicers of making this about religion.
He makes a good point. Many pro-choice arguments are based in bashing religion. Now, you calling people things like "uneducated" and "stupid", is really showing your lack of argumentation skills, counselor..
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
(05-21-2019, 09:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: He makes a good point. Many pro-choice arguments are based in bashing religion. Now, you calling people things like "uneducated" and "stupid", is really showing your lack of argumentation skills, counselor..
There is an abundance of religious rhetoric in pro life talking points. Add to that the disregard for science in both and you have a direct correlation.
Find me a secular pro life organization and I’ll find you 20 religious ones.
Some people around here are none such begrudged by “attacks on religion” when it’s against one they were not inoculated.
(05-21-2019, 10:31 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: There is an abundance of religious rhetoric in pro life talking points. Add to that the disregard for science in both and you have a direct correlation.
Find me a secular pro life organization and I’ll find you 20 religious ones.
Some people around here are none such begrudged by “attacks on religion” when it’s against one they were not inoculated.
You're right, it's like opposite hands of the same body.
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
(05-21-2019, 06:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I didn't realize how poorly educated you were on this issue.
The reason we bring religion into the issue is because the religious right are obsessed with abortion. Almost all of the Pro Life movement is tied to the church.
So maybe you should educate yourself little more instead of looking stupid for accusing the Pro Choicers of making this about religion.
Your assessment of education aside link everyone in this thread that has brought up the religious debate.
(05-21-2019, 09:08 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think once safe and legal abortion is properly and securely guaranteed, then men's ability for paper abortion is a very reasonable next step.
I thought abortion has been guaranteed for quite some time. But I do like your respect your opinion that the male should be able to "abort" the child. I hate in principle but it does support the "rights" folks,
(05-21-2019, 07:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I have a hard time believing your religion doesn't come into play when you specifically make a distinction of "innocent" life.
I'm probably just being cynical, but why the sudden push for far right abortion laws?
The GOP has been in control for years now. In the states that have passed anti-abortion laws, the GOP has been in control for even longer.
The whole thing just seems less about preserving life and more about rallying religious voters in 2020 behind candidates that aren't.
As a White Male, obviously my opinion is the most important in this matter. And quite frankly it is bullshit women still get to decide who to mate with.
So while my fellow Republicans are busy taking away individual freedoms like telling women what to do with the bodies and telling young men and women under the age of 21 that they are old enough to die for their country but not smoke a cigarette. It would be nice if we could regulate who exactly these women are allowed to mate with.
(05-22-2019, 01:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I thought abortion has been guaranteed for quite some time. But I do like your respect your opinion that the male should be able to "abort" the child. I hate in principle but it does support the "rights" folks,
It's been guaranteed, but not securely. People have been aching for the day they can attempt to overturn Roe v Wade. And there are very few abortion clinics, especially in the south, so getting to one can be a problem for low income pregnant women as well. There are, reportedly, 7 abortion clinics between Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas combined. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/01/217375/abortion-clinics-laws-map
The worst case scenario would be we legalize paper abortion for fathers, and then Roe v Wade is overturned, thus making the situation: Fathers can freely say "I have no responsibility for that baby" but the mother cannot do anything other than have the child or try to induce an abortion herself, which is very dangerous (and a very real part of our history before the legalization of abortion).
You can't put the cart in front of the horse, so if we do things properly, I see no reason why we can't provide a choice for both potential parents.
(05-22-2019, 02:00 AM)Benton Wrote: I'm probably just being cynical, but why the sudden push for far right abortion laws?
The GOP has been in control for years now. In the states that have passed anti-abortion laws, the GOP has been in control for even longer.
The whole thing just seems less about preserving life and more about rallying religious voters in 2020 behind candidates that aren't.
I think it's always been about the Supreme Court. At long last, the Conservatives have a majority and now they're pushing these laws out as a means to elevate an objection to Roe v Wade up to the highest court for consideration.
(05-22-2019, 07:50 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think it's always been about the Supreme Court. At long last, the Conservatives have a majority and now they're pushing these laws out as a means to elevate an objection to Roe v Wade up to the highest court for consideration.
Problem being the SC doesn't even have to take the case.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(05-21-2019, 07:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I have a hard time believing your religion doesn't come into play when you specifically make a distinction of "innocent" life. Who is innocent and who isn't? Maybe you include your religion by one of those unconscious decisions you've talked about?
As a Christian and a retired soldier, why is it okay for a soldier to take life?
I particularly enjoyed those pre-battle prayers by the Chaplain; please Lord help us kill our enemies blah, blah, blah. LOL
Amen.
Everyone has a fluid "morality" whether they want to admit it or not.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(05-22-2019, 07:32 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: It's been guaranteed, but not securely. People have been aching for the day they can attempt to overturn Roe v Wade. And there are very few abortion clinics, especially in the south, so getting to one can be a problem for low income pregnant women as well. There are, reportedly, 7 abortion clinics between Mississippi, Louisiana and Arkansas combined. https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/01/217375/abortion-clinics-laws-map
The worst case scenario would be we legalize paper abortion for fathers, and then Roe v Wade is overturned, thus making the situation: Fathers can freely say "I have no responsibility for that baby" but the mother cannot do anything other than have the child or try to induce an abortion herself, which is very dangerous (and a very real part of our history before the legalization of abortion).
You can't put the cart in front of the horse, so if we do things properly, I see no reason why we can't provide a choice for both potential parents.
I've stated that anytime a father would invoke his parental right, he must demonstrate he is able (financially, socially, emotionally...) to care for the child. I do understand it's more than we require from the mother. But as you say step by step.
(05-21-2019, 07:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I have a hard time believing your religion doesn't come into play when you specifically make a distinction of "innocent" life. Who is innocent and who isn't? Maybe you include your religion by one of those unconscious decisions you've talked about?
As a Christian and a retired soldier, why is it okay for a soldier to take life?
I particularly enjoyed those pre-battle prayers by the Chaplain; please Lord help us kill our enemies blah, blah, blah. LOL
Hard time aside; innocent is not synonymous with religion. As a retired Soldier you should understand the concept of taking innocent lives, you even explain your dissonance in this very post. Do you think innocent lives are lost in combat? If so, did you consider them to be without sin or just not deserving of death?
(05-22-2019, 07:50 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think it's always been about the Supreme Court. At long last, the Conservatives have a majority and now they're pushing these laws out as a means to elevate an objection to Roe v Wade up to the highest court for consideration.
Fair point, but I don't think the current scotus is going to overturn r v w. Honestly, I don't think they'll hear a case, outside of laws that hit on gray areas.
(05-22-2019, 08:33 AM)GMDino Wrote: Problem being the SC doesn't even have to take the case.
(05-22-2019, 09:17 AM)Benton Wrote: Fair point, but I don't think the current scotus is going to overturn r v w. Honestly, I don't think they'll hear a case, outside of laws that hit on gray areas.
I hope that cooler heads prevail with the scotus. I think Trump's election had a LOT to do with the scotus specifically because of R v W. I've heard people say they voted for Trump because they didn't want the Democrats replacing Scalia and Kennedy with liberal judges, making it a 6 to 3 majority, which would kill the ability to overturn R v W for another 30 years at least. The fact that two of the 4 liberal judges are in their 80s right now is already terrifying enough haha.
Ideally, the Democrats take the 2020 election as seriously as the Republicans took the 2016 election (re: scotus nominations), because I don't know if Ginsburg and potentially Breyer can hold out for 6 more years. And with every conservative judge added to that court, the chances of R v W being overturned increases exponentially (because, maybe Gorsuch and Kavanaugh don't choose to vote against it, but the next batch of judges may).[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Kavanaugh][/url]
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