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(02-22-2022, 07:52 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That actually is interesting to think about. What if WW3 does break out and now we have one of the two major political parties headed by a man who is antagonistic to our allies? In all seriousness, this could keep us out of the war unless they directly attack us which is the only thing that would unify the nation against them. At least I hope it would unify the country.
We've gotten pretty divided since 9/11. I can't see an attack uniting us even in a temporary way like it did then. I don't think Russia bombing NYC gets the whole country "on one side" any more.
If you tell people an american city got bombed i think they'll hold out on how they feel about it until you tell them which city it was.
May be im going overboard here. Still, this is a possible war with an unpopular president and the dethroned establishment warhawk GOP against Putin with Trump and the right wing media and russian social media bots sowing the seeds of dissension all the while.
Division and war are troubling bedfellows.
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(02-22-2022, 07:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Eh, it's really a dig at how impotent Biden has been in all of this. Like it or not, Putin specifically waited to do this until Trump was out of office. Note, I am not saying that Trump is some foreign policy genius, but he is vain and unpredictable. Putin would have zero idea how Trump would react to this move, the possibilities range from a shrug of the shoulders to all out war. Biden is predictable and, regardless of how you perceive him, is perceived by Putin and Xi as a weak old man. The timing of this is absolutely planned.
Lastly, it's certainly not brilliant planning on Putin's part, it's literally the Sudetenland playbook to a tee.
Absolutely, it's a dark day and I really feel for the people of Ukraine and Taiwan. To have freedom wrested from you and be placed under the yoke of the garbage governments in Russia and China is terrible to contemplate. Too bad Europe, overall, is an impotent mess without the military strength to defend their own countries, much less a weaker neighbor.
I feel for the people as well. They have some bad times coming their way and many innocent lives are going to be lost on both sides.
The rest of this reply is regarding posts in the thread: I believe Ukraine military and citizens are going to fight this to the death of the country if need be. I usually want the US to stay out of other countries conflicts, but we need to intervene and so does the UN.
China is pumping it's chest over Taiwan. This is going to be tough to plan possible conflicts with 2 major countries at the same time. Specially at a time when I feel the country is at is weakest. IMO, we look like school children fighting over a lot of petty things. Some serious, but our media both left and right make us look like fools.
I don't fear nuclear war. It's possible yes, but economically, other countries need a functioning US. However, if it happens, I sincerely doubt the ability of many pampered, coddled Americans to survive. Most don't think it's even possible and have no clue. Heck, we don't even teach real history anymore so how would they?
Our military, although lean and mean, is not large enough numerically in our current situation. They're not as tough as my generation (pov), but they are a lot smarter. Yet still not large enough.
Biden should get us back to energy independence so there is less pain and repercussions. When people are paying a ton at the pump, with already inflated food prices, empty shelves and utility bills and rent through the roof, it's not a good look.
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(02-22-2022, 09:42 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I feel for the people as well. They have some bad times coming their way and many innocent lives are going to be lost on both sides.
The rest of this reply is regarding posts in the thread: I believe Ukraine military and citizens are going to fight this to the death of the country if need be. I usually want the US to stay out of other countries conflicts, but we need to intervene and so does the UN.
China is pumping it's chest over Taiwan. This is going to be tough to plan possible conflicts with 2 major countries at the same time. Specially at a time when I feel the country is at is weakest. IMO, we look like school children fighting over a lot of petty things. Some serious, but our media both left and right make us look like fools.
I don't fear nuclear war. It's possible yes, but economically, other countries need a functioning US. However, if it happens, I sincerely doubt the ability of many pampered, coddled Americans to survive. Most don't think it's even possible and have no clue. Heck, we don't even teach real history anymore so how would they?
Our military, although lean and mean, is not large enough numerically in our current situation. They're not as tough as my generation (pov), but they are a lot smarter. Yet still not large enough.
Biden should get us back to energy independence so there is less pain and repercussions. When people are paying a ton at the pump, with already inflated food prices, empty shelves and utility bills and rent through the roof, it's not a good look.
Jus a note that we are energy independent. I posted that the other day. But beyond that the entire world is connected now. It's not as easy as just flipping a switch and suddenly all the plants that got shut down and moved to save money and avoid taxes will be back in the US.
The gop and big business has spent decades destroying our manufacturing for a buck...no one person will fix that in a year or eight years.
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(02-22-2022, 07:49 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Well Trump controls one of our two major parties at the moment, so it goes beyond my feelings, doesn't it?
I'd gladly be wrong on this one. Just interesting thinking of a world war with a third of Americans pulling for the other side, in a sense.
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(02-22-2022, 10:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: Jus a note that we are energy independent.
No, we were energy independent until Biden came into office. There's a reason he was begging the Saudi's to increase production, and it wasn't because we are energy independent.
Quote: I posted that the other day.
And you were wrong then too.
Quote:But beyond that the entire world is connected now. It's not as easy as just flipping a switch and suddenly all the plants that got shut down and moved to save money and avoid taxes will be back in the US.
This is indeed true. Thus, it raises the question, do we rip the Band-Aid off now or kick the can down the road and continue to fund genocidal regimes?
Quote:The gop and big business has spent decades destroying our manufacturing for a buck...no one person will fix that in a year or eight years.
Oh poor, sweet, partisan GM. If you really think that it was just the GOP that allowed offshoring of our manufacturing base then you are as deluded as the most ardent MAGA hat wearing Trump supporter. Take the blinders off, dude. The Dems are up to their eyeballs in this as well, don't try and salvage your fragile world view by pretending otherwise.
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(02-22-2022, 07:21 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Eh, it's really a dig at how impotent Biden has been in all of this. Like it or not, Putin specifically waited to do this until Trump was out of office. Note, I am not saying that Trump is some foreign policy genius, but he is vain and unpredictable. Putin would have zero idea how Trump would react to this move, the possibilities range from a shrug of the shoulders to all out war. Biden is predictable and, regardless of how you perceive him, is perceived by Putin and Xi as a weak old man. The timing of this is absolutely planned.
Lastly, it's certainly not brilliant planning on Putin's part, it's literally the Sudetenland playbook to a tee.
Absolutely, it's a dark day and I really feel for the people of Ukraine and Taiwan. To have freedom wrested from you and be placed under the yoke of the garbage governments in Russia and China is terrible to contemplate. Too bad Europe, overall, is an impotent mess without the military strength to defend their own countries, much less a weaker neighbor.
What else could we do other than reveal the play by play of everything they are/where doing? I remember seeing a week or so ago they would wait until after the Olympics to invade to not piss off xi. Here we are. Called out the false flag and I don’t doubt it would could happen. Putin seems flustered and the world is not looking at him in good light right now.
Unless it’s the traitor talking Who sings putins praises like a good little bi. Because he loves scumbag dictators. And for some reason people think that’s awesome foreign policy. Now members of our previous administration are on Russian state run propaganda praising the murderer dictator invading its neighbor. It’s really freaking dumb
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I have to say, my view of Ukraine is a different one than most in the U.S. As an anti-imperialist lefty I tend to be very skeptical of our government and the way they have their fingers in things throughout the world. We helped to perpetuate the coup in 2014 for our own interests, and supported literal neo-Nazis in the process of doing so. This group of fascists are a part of the Ukrainian National Guard, so even though we nominally cut off aid to them in 2018 (after shooting down such a proposal in 2015), military aid we give to Ukraine supports them, as well.
The deposed president was a corrupt POS, but honestly not much has changed in the time since then. Corruption is still ongoing in the country, at least as compared to western standards. The old Combloc is rampant with it and it is a part of the culture. We aren't going to change that. Our government is just involved in an ongoing tug-of-war where we are doing the same thing as Russia just with different techniques.
Our involvement in Ukraine is purely in our own self-interest and has nothing to do with the people of Ukraine and everything to do with our own. It's imperialistic and we just need to GTFO.
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(02-23-2022, 08:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to say, my view of Ukraine is a different one than most in the U.S. As an anti-imperialist lefty I tend to be very skeptical of our government and the way they have their fingers in things throughout the world. We helped to perpetuate the coup in 2014 for our own interests, and supported literal neo-Nazis in the process of doing so. This group of fascists are a part of the Ukrainian National Guard, so even though we nominally cut off aid to them in 2018 (after shooting down such a proposal in 2015), military aid we give to Ukraine supports them, as well.
The deposed president was a corrupt POS, but honestly not much has changed in the time since then. Corruption is still ongoing in the country, at least as compared to western standards. The old Combloc is rampant with it and it is a part of the culture. We aren't going to change that. Our government is just involved in an ongoing tug-of-war where we are doing the same thing as Russia just with different techniques.
Our involvement in Ukraine is purely in our own self-interest and has nothing to do with the people of Ukraine and everything to do with our own. It's imperialistic and we just need to GTFO.
And your point falls under the larger discussion of our country's own faults and the bad things we do around the world.
I don't doubt this will always go on.
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(02-23-2022, 10:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: And your point falls under the larger discussion of our country's own faults and the bad things we do around the world.
I don't doubt this will always go on.
I do want to specify, I despise Putin. This move from Russia is his attempt to prevent the spread of democracy to Russia out of fear for his own self interests. It is Russian imperialism. I just question how much we should really be involved.
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(02-23-2022, 10:38 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I do want to specify, I despise Putin. This move from Russia is his attempt to prevent the spread of democracy to Russia out of fear for his own self interests. It is Russian imperialism. I just question how much we should really be involved.
There is growing interest in scaling back the levels of democracy in our own country, so our involvement may not be terribly important in the long run.
Our standard nation building is now oddly colored by our own struggles as our political system has a major party currying support for authoritarianism within our own borders.
Also, a push for energy independence while fighting domestic energy sources that are "too green?" Meh, I'm not holding my breath.
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(02-23-2022, 11:45 AM)Nately120 Wrote: There is growing interest in scaling back the levels of democracy in our own country, so our involvement may not be terribly important in the long run.
Our standard nation building is now oddly colored by our own struggles as our political system has a major party currying support for authoritarianism within our own borders.
The same party criticizing Canada and praising Russia.
But "both sides"...amiright? 
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I know this isn't important to the conversation other than to show how the gop has nothing to attack Biden with these days, but it gave me a giggle so I just wanted to share it.
There was a bit of a kerfuffle on the interwebs about Biden "walking away" after his speech on the Ukraine.
Today this was released.
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It's rather illustrative that people are using an unprovoked invasion of expansion as a chance to talk shit on their political opposition. Yup, both sides are doing it, one need look no further than this thread. Lots of finger pointing at a mirror going on in this country.
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(02-23-2022, 02:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's rather illustrative that people are using an unprovoked invasion of expansion as a chance to talk shit on their political opposition. Yup, both sides are doing it, one need look no further than this thread. Lots of finger pointing at a mirror going on in this country.
I just wish they'd all STFU and work on domestic issues. One of the top 3 richest people, alone, has more than enough wealth to eradicate hunger in our country, but nah, let's beat the war drum I stead of feeding children.
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(02-23-2022, 02:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It's rather illustrative that people are using an unprovoked invasion of expansion as a chance to talk shit on their political opposition. Yup, both sides are doing it, one need look no further than this thread. Lots of finger pointing at a mirror going on in this country.
Maybe if the GOP weren't borrowing so heavily from Putin's playbook they wouldn't come up in conversation about dangerous and power hungry plutocratic authoritarians.
A certain former and possibly future president offering praise of our potential enemy and sowing doubt about our own leadership in a time of looming conflict is hard to ignore.
I'd actually be pleasantly shocked if a certain person who has nothing to do with this situation were not attempting to or making contact with Putin in some manner.
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(02-23-2022, 02:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I just wish they'd all STFU and work on domestic issues. One of the top 3 richest people, alone, has more than enough wealth to eradicate hunger in our country, but nah, let's beat the war drum I stead of feeding children.
This... & I'm not referring to irrelevant message board posters but our own government. The undisputable key to a lot of our troubles is energy production.
Someone...needs to kick this industry as a whole into high gear. And I mean yesterday.
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(02-23-2022, 03:01 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: This... & I'm not referring to irrelevant message board posters but our own government. The undisputable key to a lot of our troubles is energy production.
Someone...needs to kick this industry as a whole into high gear. And I mean yesterday.
We have a lot of minds to change before this happens. Americans get very testy when you suggest the government could or should help people.
Even suggesting that some people need help sends people into a rage. Between "they choose to be poor" and "America first" we have our responses to this sort of stuff etched in stone.
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(02-23-2022, 02:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I just wish they'd all STFU and work on domestic issues. One of the top 3 richest people, alone, has more than enough wealth to eradicate hunger in our country, but nah, let's beat the war drum I stead of feeding children.
Couldn't agree more. Screw the top three richest people, we have more than enough money at the Federal level to eradicate hunger in this country.
(02-23-2022, 02:55 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe if the GOP weren't borrowing so heavily from Putin's playbook they wouldn't come up in conversation about dangerous and power hungry plutocratic authoritarians.
A certain former and possibly future president offering praise of our potential enemy and sowing doubt about our own leadership in a time of looming conflict is hard to ignore.
I'd actually be pleasantly shocked if a certain person who has nothing to do with this situation were not attempting to or making contact with Putin in some manner.
Exactly how is the GOP "borrowing" from Putin's playbook? Trump is more about needling Biden than he is about praising Putin, but I'm not a fan of it either way. I think the issue is being way oversold though. As for sowing doubt about our leadership, wasn't that the Dem playbook from 2016-2020? Or is it different now because Russia?
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