Russia begins moving troops into eastern Ukraine

[masonbengals fan]

(02-23-2022, 03:07 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We have a lot of minds to change before this happens.  Americans get very testy when you suggest the government could or should help people. 

Even suggesting that some people need help sends people into a rage. Between "they choose to be poor" and "America first" we have our responses to this sort of stuff etched in stone. 

 Often times helping just means getting out of the way. How hard is that? 

[*Nately120*]

(02-23-2022, 03:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Couldn't agree more.  Screw the top three richest people, we have more than enough money at the Federal level to eradicate hunger in this country.


Exactly how is the GOP "borrowing" from Putin's playbook?  Trump is more about needling Biden than he is about praising Putin, but I'm not a fan of it either way.  I think the issue is being way oversold though.   As for sowing doubt about our leadership, wasn't that the Dem playbook from 2016-2020?  Or is it different now because Russia?  

I hope it's being oversold, but the neo con praise of Putin goes back to when Trump was still a reality show host.  People like Rush Limbaugh talking up an authoritarian in Putin and saying how weak Obama was by comparison is why we elected Trump in the first place. 

Overturning elections, seizing voting machines, finding or destroying votes, and the increased rhetoric to revolt, start a civil war, jail or execute political rivals...this all seems like a march towards being like Russia, to me.  At least some people are into the idea. 

This stuff is a lot more appealing than people want to admit.  Biden faceplanting here, or this being perceived as a war we can't win because democracy gives us weak leaders could be another "reason" to pull a Putin on ourselves. 

To me this goes beyond democrats not liking having Trump as president.  This is seeing our form of government as giving us weak leaders and making a forceful takeover look better than it is. 

[*Nately120*]

(02-23-2022, 03:16 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote:  Often times helping just means getting out of the way. How hard is that? 

Separate discussion.  In in full blown end of democracy mode, now. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-23-2022, 03:25 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I hope it's being oversold, but the neo con praise of Putin goes back to when Trump was still a reality show host.  People like Rush Limbaugh talking up an authoritarian in Putin and saying how weak Obama was by comparison is why we elected Trump in the first place. 

Overturning elections, seizing voting machines, finding or destroying votes, and the increased rhetoric to revolt, start a civil war, jail or execute political rivals...this all seems like a march towards being like Russia, to me.  At least some people are into the idea. 

This stuff is a lot more appealing than people want to admit.  Biden faceplanting here, or this being perceived as a war we can't win because democracy gives us weak leaders could be another "reason" to pull a Putin on ourselves. 

To me this goes beyond democrats not liking having Trump as president.  This is seeing our form of government as giving us weak leaders and making a forceful takeover look better than it is. 

Well, if we're going to view this from a pure academic standpoint Democracy does tend to produce weak leaders.  In order to appeal to as many voters as possible you will inevitably dilute yourself and your positions.  In some ways all candidates are compromise candidates.  Of course, being a dictator does not inherently make a person strong or capable, but what it does do is give you a singularity of purpose that rarely exists in a democratic society.  This happens with left leaning people as well who idolize Che, Lenin, Xi or Stalin.  The idea of having full control will inevitably appeal to many people, especially when your democracy is currently in a state of upheaval.

Please note that none of this is an endorsement of autocratic governments of any stripe.  It is merely an explanation of why some people are drawn to them or admire certain facets of their functioning.  Given the choice I, and the vast majority of Americans, will select democracy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its flaws or that autocracy doesn't have some advantages over it.  I just would never surrender what makes democracy preferable to acquire those advantages.  Some people in this country would, and by no means do they exclusively reside on the right.

[*Nately120*]

(02-23-2022, 03:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Well, if we're going to view this from a pure academic standpoint Democracy does tend to produce weak leaders.  In order to appeal to as many voters as possible you will inevitably dilute yourself and your positions.  In some ways all candidates are compromise candidates.  Of course, being a dictator does not inherently make a person strong or capable, but what it does do is give you a singularity of purpose that rarely exists in a democratic society.  This happens with left leaning people as well who idolize Che, Lenin, Xi or Stalin.  The idea of having full control will inevitably appeal to many people, especially when your democracy is currently in a state of upheaval.

Please note that none of this is an endorsement of autocratic governments of any stripe.  It is merely an explanation of why some people are drawn to them or admire certain facets of their functioning.  Given the choice I, and the vast majority of Americans, will select democracy, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its flaws or that autocracy doesn't have some advantages over it.  I just would never surrender what makes democracy preferable to acquire those advantages.  Some people in this country would, and by no means do they exclusively reside on the right.

I agree, but I think the increase in interest in an authoritative government combined with a political party that has a more and more advantageous road into power is what has my "this might happen" alarm sounding. 

It just doesn't seem like we really have to convince that many people that we want this before it happens. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-23-2022, 03:55 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I agree, but I think the increase in interest in an authoritative government combined with a political party that has a more and more advantageous road into power is what has my "this might happen" alarm sounding. 

It just doesn't seem like we really have to convince that many people that we want this before it happens. 

Maybe not, although I certainly hope that's not the case.  I will say there does seem to be a decay in acknowledgment of inherent rights among the younger crowd.  For example, look how many people would not include "hate speech" as protected speech under the 1st amendment.  It's not an insignificant number and it's not the only example.  I think that we've had it so good for so long in this country, with some obvious exceptions, that many people no longer recognize just how important those freedoms are, how rare they are in human history, how much people had to fight and die to implement and maintain them and how easy they are to lose.  It's certainly no less of a concern than what you're referring to.

[masonbengals fan]

(02-23-2022, 03:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Separate discussion.  In in full blown end of democracy mode, now. 

So is the Ukraine. 

[*Nately120*]

(02-23-2022, 04:13 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: So is the Ukraine. 

Right, which is what brought me into brining up the troubling realities of how our current political climate comes into play.  We are looking at a possible war behind a president who is, in the eyes of many, less favorable than the leader of the country we are going to have to oppose.  We are going to defend the democracy of Ukraine from a leader that a significant percentage of our own population find preferable to our current leader, and during a time when a significant portion of our population refuses to believe that he was fairly elected over our past unfavorable president who is the current front-runner to be back in power in a few years and has expressed distal and proximal praise for the "enemy leader."

Even people who didn't like Bush, or Obama, or Bush, LBJ, or FDR probably weren't likely to hold them in lower regard than Osama Bin Laden, Sadaam Hussein, Mussolini and so on and so forth.  This is the first conflict I can think of where we enter into it with a powerful propaganda cycle running 24/7 that isn't afraid to say that "our guy is worse and weaker than their guy."

Isn't this odd? 

[masonbengals fan]

Our world has went way beyond odd. Sad...

[GMDino]

The Russians love the right wing noise machine pushing propaganda for them.

Russian state broadcaster RT just published Tucker Carlson’s rant to defend Putin with Russian subtitles pic.twitter.com/atmHt4TlmS

— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) February 23, 2022

 

[*Nately120*]

(02-23-2022, 05:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: The Russians love the right wing noise machine pushing propaganda for them.

Russian state broadcaster RT just published Tucker Carlson’s rant to defend Putin with Russian subtitles pic.twitter.com/atmHt4TlmS

— Ragıp Soylu (@ragipsoylu) February 23, 2022

 

God bless our freedom that a journalist in the USA who routinely trashes the president can openly criticize people who would dare to hate a politician who kills journalists who trash him.

[GMDino]

(02-23-2022, 06:40 PM)Nately120 Wrote: God bless our freedom that a journalist in the USA who routinely trashes the president can openly criticize people who would dare to hate a politician who kills journalists who trash him.

That is arguably one of the best takes on this I've ever read.  Kudos to you.

[KillerGoose]

Just an update, but it appears the Russian invasion of Ukraine has officially began. Volodymyr Zelenskyy has called it an invasion, and Putin addressed Russia just a short while ago stating that he aims to demilitarize and denazify the country.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/23/world/russia-ukraine

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/index.html

From what I can tell, the attack is still in the Donbas region, eastern Ukraine where the separatist states are located. I have to wonder how far Putin wants to go - does he want to annex this region and call it a day, or does he actually want to get into a deep war with Ukraine?

[Au165]

(02-24-2022, 12:42 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Just an update, but it appears the Russian invasion of Ukraine has officially began. Volodymyr Zelenskyy has called it an invasion, and Putin addressed Russia just a short while ago stating that he aims to demilitarize and denazify the country.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/23/world/russia-ukraine

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/index.html

From what I can tell, the attack is still in the Donbas region, eastern Ukraine where the separatist states are located. I have to wonder how far Putin wants to go - does he want to annex this region and call it a day, or does he actually want to get into a deep war with Ukraine?

They are bombing the capital so seems like it’s probably not going to end with anything short of a total occupation.

[Bengalzona]

(02-24-2022, 12:42 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Just an update, but it appears the Russian invasion of Ukraine has officially began. Volodymyr Zelenskyy has called it an invasion, and Putin addressed Russia just a short while ago stating that he aims to demilitarize and denazify the country.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/02/23/world/russia-ukraine

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-news-02-23-22/index.html

From what I can tell, the attack is still in the Donbas region, eastern Ukraine where the separatist states are located. I have to wonder how far Putin wants to go - does he want to annex this region and call it a day, or does he actually want to get into a deep war with Ukraine?

Yes. NATO is now confirming that.

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/russia-ukraine-invasion-donbas-troops-today/

(02-24-2022, 01:05 AM)Au165 Wrote: They are bombing the capital so seems like it’s probably not going to end with anything short of a total occupation.

I'm watching a live feed from Kiev, the capital. There are no bombs dropping in Kiev currently.

[Au165]

(02-24-2022, 01:58 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Yes. NATO is now confirming that.

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/russia-ukraine-invasion-donbas-troops-today/




I'm watching a live feed from Kiev, the capital. There are no bombs dropping in Kiev currently.

Watch a better live feed, it’s been confirmed ballistic missiles have struck Kyiv.

“Ukraine's Interior Ministry has said Russia's "invasion has begun" with missile strikes on Kyiv.“

[Bengalzona]

(02-24-2022, 02:10 AM)Au165 Wrote: Watch a better live feed, it’s been confirmed ballistic missiles have struck Kyiv.

“Ukraine's Interior Ministry has said Russia's "invasion has begun" with missile strikes on Kyiv.“

Missile strikes were observed from Kharkiv, in the northeast of the country. There are unconfirmed reports of people hearing missile strikes in Kiev, 100 miles west. There is nothing wrong with the live satellite feed I'm watching.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2022/feb/24/ukraine-russian-missile-strikes-reported-in-kharkiv-and-kyiv-video

[Interceptor]

Livestreams

News

Maidan Square, Kyiv

[Arturo Bandini]

This is not good at all. War is now 100km of Poland. Belarus invaded Ukraine too.

https://twitter.com/geo_politie/status/1496753112643682308/photo/1

This is nuts.

[StrictlyBiz]

If you want to know the 'why' take 10 minutes and watch this video. Very informative and well done.