So how do we fix the defense for next season?

[Rotobeast]

(12-27-2023, 02:14 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Mahomes is great vs the blitz. His tackles have been awful, not sure we need to blitz too much. Remember it was the drop 8 that give KC problems, even when they had Tyreek.

Also this:

Next Gen Stats show that Kansas City Chiefs quarterback has posted a higher career passer rating (116.5) when facing 5+ pass rushers than he has against 4 or fewer pass rushers (109.0).

Darn...why be all rational with data and stuff ?


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[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-27-2023, 02:14 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Mahomes is great vs the blitz.  His tackles have been awful, not sure we need to blitz too much.  Remember it was the drop 8 that give KC problems, even when they had Tyreek.

Also this:

Next Gen Stats show that Kansas City Chiefs quarterback has posted a higher career passer rating (116.5) when facing 5+ pass rushers than he has against 4 or fewer pass rushers (109.0).

Yes, we shouldn't blitz much. What messes with Mahomes is when you drop 8 and cover High Low. Getting CTB back is huge.

[sandwedge]

(12-26-2023, 07:12 PM)Joelist Wrote: Thanks!

Of all these I think the biggest issue may be the constant dumb errors in the secondary. Because of them the D can't even handle third and long reliably. If these young speedsters can't figure out how to play zone with some smarts then either they have to be replaced with smarter players or we have to simplify the system into something they CAN execute.

I agree Joe, I know surprise! How much do you simplify the D for these younger players? We talk about vanilla in the preseason and look at those results. Honestly, I haven't seen Turner do anything that gives me much hope. Yes, he is a rookie, but he is too weak to bump these WRs. He is always out of position. Daz was playing very good in the middle of the season, but has regressed a lot over the last month. I love Chido, but he has falling off after having a great game and proclaiming himself back to 100%... Then stink it up the next 2 games.

[RiverRat13]

Change my mind - Dax Hill is a slot corner miscast as a safety in part because he benefited from knowing what was coming (i.e. sign stealing) the one good year he had at Michigan as a safety.

[TSwigZ]

Biggest surprise to me this year has been the subpar performance from our LBs

[*ochocincos*]

(12-24-2023, 03:31 PM)J24 Wrote: So how do hypothesis Duke, Lou, and Zac will fix this defense? Or perhaps you think we should fire Lou?

Starting 3T , starting NT , and Nickle LB have to be addressed in free agency or via trade.  Additionally I think we should look to add a true FS and move Dax to Nickleback/Joker. At least  on 3rd downs!

I think you're out of your mind that they're going to make that many changes in one offseason.
We need to think realistic.

We'll see probably 1 veteran brought in and any others will be addressed in the draft.

Why does Nickel LB need to be addressed? They only run two and Pratt and Wilson are fine.

I think with all they've invested in DB the past couple offseasons, we're not going to see much new there.
CTB, Turner, Hilton, Hill, and Battle are the guys going into training camp.
DE I think is also pretty set with Hendrickson, Hubbard, and Murphy.
DT is where I would look to invest in a couple draft picks and maybe 1 veteran to go along with BJ Hill.

Offense is honestly what I'm more worried about with 4 starting spots potentially vacating in RT, WR2, slot WR, and TE.
Have we seen enough Charlie Jones to pencil him in as the Boyd replacement?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-27-2023, 07:15 PM)TSwigZ Wrote: Biggest surprise to me this year has been the subpar performance from our LBs

Same here, would of thought both Logan Wilson and Germaine Pratt would of been our strengths, not one of our weaknesses this year.

We paid the men and they have took bad angles and tackled poorly this year, at least Pratt has tackled very poorly.

This has a lot to do with the front in front of them, but they have had their troubles just the same.

(12-27-2023, 07:20 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think you're out of your mind that they're going to make that many changes in one offseason.
We need to think realistic.

We'll see probably 1 veteran brought in and any others will be addressed in the draft.

Why does Nickel LB need to be addressed? They only run two and Pratt and Wilson are fine.

I think with all they've invested in DB the past couple offseasons, we're not going to see much new there.
CTB, Turner, Hilton, Hill, and Battle are the guys going into training camp.
DE I think is also pretty set with Hendrickson, Hubbard, and Murphy.
DT is where I would look to invest in a couple draft picks and maybe 1 veteran to go along with BJ Hill.

Offense is honestly what I'm more worried about with 4 starting spots potentially vacating in RT, WR2, slot WR, and TE.
Have we seen enough Charlie Jones to pencil him in as the Boyd replacement?

I agree, we don't have to make that many changes on D. We get a NT and depth behind BJ Hill at 3-tech and that should help the entire 
Defense out immensely. I don't think Pratt and Logan just forgot how to play football. The secondary is young besides Chido and should
just improve in the Offseason. Murphy is growing into a better player and with a full Offseason should be much better. Wouldn't mind 
another pass rusher though.

On Offense we will most likely need like you said at least 3 to 4 new players. Bring back Hudson and Sample would be my call at TE and
draft one in the mid rounds. To answer your last question, no, we have not seen enough of Charlie to know if he is the Boyd replacement.

[M.W.]

The maturing of our young DBs will help. I would replace Reader with another (hopefully younger) DT that can disrupt and stop the run. Draft best DE available in the draft unless some great candidate slips to our pick.

If we had another DE 70% as good as Trey it would make our entire defense so much better. It starts at the foundation. If we could create constant pressure in the backfield like teams do against us, it would be great Mkay?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-27-2023, 07:44 PM)M.W. Wrote: The maturing of our young DBs will help.  I would replace Reader with another (hopefully younger) DT that can disrupt and stop the run.  Draft best DE available in the draft unless some great candidate slips to our pick.

If we had another DE 70% as good as Trey it would make our entire defense so much better.  It starts at the foundation. If we could create constant pressure in the backfield like teams do against us, it would be great Mkay?

Hubbard has been a disappointment this year as well no question. Thought he was going for double digit sacks. I don't even know how 
many sacks or pressures he has honestly? He also has not been near as good at setting the edge this year against the run.

[sandwedge]

(12-27-2023, 07:20 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think you're out of your mind that they're going to make that many changes in one offseason.
We need to think realistic.

We'll see probably 1 veteran brought in and any others will be addressed in the draft.

Why does Nickel LB need to be addressed? They only run two and Pratt and Wilson are fine.

I think with all they've invested in DB the past couple offseasons, we're not going to see much new there.
CTB, Turner, Hilton, Hill, and Battle are the guys going into training camp.
DE I think is also pretty set with Hendrickson, Hubbard, and Murphy.
DT is where I would look to invest in a couple draft picks and maybe 1 veteran to go along with BJ Hill.

Offense is honestly what I'm more worried about with 4 starting spots potentially vacating in RT, WR2, slot WR, and TE.
Have we seen enough Charlie Jones to pencil him in as the Boyd replacement?

I've seen enough of Boyd though this year.

[J24]

(12-27-2023, 07:20 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think you're out of your mind that they're going to make that many changes in one offseason.
We need to think realistic.

We'll see probably 1 veteran brought in and any others will be addressed in the draft.

Why does Nickel LB need to be addressed? They only run two and Pratt and Wilson are fine.

I think with all they've invested in DB the past couple offseasons, we're not going to see much new there.
CTB, Turner, Hilton, Hill, and Battle are the guys going into training camp.
DE I think is also pretty set with Hendrickson, Hubbard, and Murphy.
DT is where I would look to invest in a couple draft picks and maybe 1 veteran to go along with BJ Hill.

Offense is honestly what I'm more worried about with 4 starting spots potentially vacating in RT, WR2, slot WR, and TE.
Have we seen enough Charlie Jones to pencil him in as the Boyd replacement?

Dead last in Yards per play, Yards per passing play, 2nd to dead last in Yard per rush, and 2nd to dead last in total Yards on defense. A lot has to change for this defense.


For LBers.
According to PFF both LBers pass coverage has fallen off a cliff. 

Logan went from a 73.6 in pass coverage in 22 to a 56.6 in pass coverage this season.

Germaine went from a 90 in pass coverage in 22 to a 62.3 this season. 

Last season Pratt played in 722 snaps while this season he has played in 895. Remember how he complained about not being a 3 down player? Well he has been a 3 down player this year and his play has dropped because of it.

All I'm asking for is to re-sign ADG and to give him back his 3rd down role from last season. Is that really that big of an ask?

As for the secondary 

Again were dead last in Yards Per pass attempt this season and went from 1st in pass Completion last year to 22nd this year. Both Hilton and Auwzie have struggled in man, Dax has regressed in pass coverage since the start of the season, and Turner has looked terrible the last two weeks. 

Hilton will need to be replaced because A.) He is about to be 30 and B.) 2024 is his last year on his deal. So why Not move Hill there(which is his natural spot anyways) and draft a natural safety in his place? Why is that an irrational ask?

 We agree we need to add a 3T to the roster; It's a deep year for DTs in this draft and Free agency. We should be able to fill that whole quite easily. 

The Front office needs to be aggressive this year and should look to improve the roster anyways it can. Via draft, Free agency, or Trade.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-27-2023, 11:33 PM)J24 Wrote: Dead last in Yards per play, Yards per passing play, 2nd to dead last in Yard per rush, and 2nd to dead last in total Yards on defense. A lot has to change for this defense.


For LBers.
According to PFF both LBers pass coverage has fallen off a cliff. 

Logan went from a 73.6 in pass coverage in 22 to a 56.6 in pass coverage this season.

Germaine went from a 90 in pass coverage in 22 to a 62.3 this season. 

Last season Pratt played in 722 snaps while this season he has played in 895. Remember how he complained about not being a 3 down player? Well he has been a 3 down player this year and his play has dropped because of it.

All I'm asking for is to re-sign ADG and to give him back his 3rd down role from last season. Is that really that big of an ask?

As for the secondary 

Again were dead last in Yards Per pass attempt this season and went from 1st in pass Completion last year to 22nd this year. Both Hilton and Auwzie have struggled in man, Dax has regressed in pass coverage since the start of the season, and Turner has looked terrible the last two weeks. 

Hilton will need to be replaced because A.) He is about to be 30 and B.) 2024 is his last year on his deal. So why Not move Hill there(which is his natural spot anyways) and draft a natural safety in his place? Why is that an irrational ask?

 We agree we need to add a 3T to the roster; It's a deep year for DTs in this draft and Free agency. We should be able to fill that whole quite easily. 

The Front office needs to be aggressive this year and should look to improve the roster anyways it can. Via draft, Free agency, or Trade.

I don't think we see Hilton get relegated to backup or cut next year, so I think the "starting 5" in the secondary is set.
If they get another DB, I think it could be either a backup slot CB or FS, but I don't think we see that player taken too early (rd 3 earliest).

You said "all I want is to re-sign ADG" but you didn't indicate that in the post I quoted, so how was I supposed to know that's what you meant?
I assume if you say to address in FA or draft, you're talking about outside FA not re-signing someone.
I do think re-signing ADG is a (strong) possibility.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-27-2023, 08:15 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I've seen enough of Boyd though this year.

My point about Boyd isn't that we've "seen enough" of him. There's only 2 games left, so there isn't much that Charlie Jones is going to do with the time remaining to give (me) confidence he can adequately fill the slot role.

[SunsetBengal]

Saw this article and it pretty much parallels my thoughts on the matter.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/the-cincinnati-bengals-have-defensive-deficiencies-that-must-be-addressed/ar-AA1m6Zfr?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=19ce5a2f6c274788b2207901ccd40b05&ei=54

Quote:The 2023 Cincinnati Bengals have struggled mightily on the defensive side of the ball. This is especially evident in the AFC North where they’ve been manhandled in every facet on their way to an 0-5 record in the division. The stellar play of Joe Burrow has covered a ton of warts, and they now seem to be rising to the surface after his wrist injury suffered against the Baltimore Ravens. It’s no secret the Bengals play in the toughest division in the NFL and the team that makes it out in good health often takes the crown. This Bengals defense is young in the backend and very thin up front which has only made matters worse when playing better teams. Cincinnati will look to rebuild this offseason in hopes of getting back to the style of play shown in the last two years.

Physical Specimens
The most glaring weakness of this Bengals defense has been the lack of physicality across the board. When you play in the AFC North this just can’t happen, and even though the Bengals are built the least like their defensive divisional counterparts, it eventually catches up to you. The Bengals have been a fantastic December team in 2021 and 2022 under Zac Taylor but the Pittsburgh Steelers game brought them back to earth. Taylor lamented several issues by stating, “In all three phases and that was turnovers on offense and missed opportunities there. This is a humbling league. This is a humbling day. And we’re going to have to quickly be able to make corrections and put them behind us. And we have plenty to play for next week in Kansas City.”

Living on the EDGE
Trey Hendrickson is having the best season of his career and makes Sam Hubbard on the other side more effective on true pass rush sets. They make a solid duo together and have collectively made some of the best plays in the history of the franchise. The real issue arises when either of the Bengals bash brothers is off the field due to rest or injury. They simply don’t have the speed off the edge that the best teams in the NFL employ. Even though rookie Myles Murphy has flashed at times, they seem to need more in consistently getting to the quarterback.

Reading the Room
The Bengals have a history of successful defensive tackles including 2X All-Pro Geno Atkins and DJ Reader. The styles of the two players are quite different with Atkins being more of a pass rusher while Reader is a true run-stuffer. Cincinnati has a difficult decision on Reader who will be a free agent coming off another significant injury as he turns 30 years old. The Bengals desperately need quality snaps from the defensive tackle position moving forward. It would be no surprise if they target this spot aggressively in the draft and via free agency in 2024 with hopes of getting back to the top of the division.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-28-2023, 10:08 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Saw this article and it pretty much parallels my thoughts on the matter.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/the-cincinnati-bengals-have-defensive-deficiencies-that-must-be-addressed/ar-AA1m6Zfr?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=19ce5a2f6c274788b2207901ccd40b05&ei=54

Nice post Sunset. Yeah I don't like the lack of physicality the Defense has been playing with either. Maybe CTB coming back will instill a bit
more of this as he is a very physical Corner and will bring his pads a crackin'. I like Synric's idea of bringing in Christian Wilkins in here if he 
tests FA. Also would like to add a monster like T'Vondre Sweat or Stackhouse in the Draft to add to our physicality in 2024.

[Hammerstripes]

(12-24-2023, 04:04 PM)impactplaya Wrote: I think the scheme has to change
Drop the 4 2 5 . Go back to the 4 3
And find a LB that can completely wreck
Havoc at the 1st and 2nd levels
Get a LB you can line up all around be
A Micah Parsons type. Need a DT that can
Disrupt the pocket create double teams

There isn't a linebacker in the league that can play against WRs and TEs.

You have to run a nickel against 3 WR sets. 

[Hammerstripes]

The Reader injury forces our hand when it comes to the D-line. I didn't think we were going to re-sign him long term. But with his injury, we need to bring in a legit DT via free agency as well as draft one.

We truly need 2 new DTs- 1 that is a legit pass rusher and a big body that can play NT.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(12-29-2023, 05:03 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: There isn't a linebacker in the league that can play against WRs and TEs.

You have to run a nickel against 3 WR sets. 

Although I feel that Bailey is a better overall LB, especially in a 4-3, but ADG could be great against the TEs . . . that's kind of why he was drafted. You could replace Dax Hill with Mike Hilton as a base defense but remain fluid with the roster throughout the game.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-29-2023, 05:03 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: There isn't a linebacker in the league that can play against WRs and TEs.

You have to run a nickel against 3 WR sets. 

https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/nfl-stats/personnel-groupings/offense/offensive-personnel-grouping-frequency-2021/
2021 is the latest I can find data (at least free) and even the Bengals only had 3+ WRs on the field 79% of the time.

In 2023...
Wilson has played 99.29% of the snaps.
Pratt has played 90.61% of the snaps.
All the other LBs on the team have played a combined ~9% of the snaps.

That means we're running 2 LBs even when the teams don't have 3 WRs out there somewhere between 20-50% of the time depending on the team if those numbers are representative of 2023... and just because they have 3 WRs out there doesn't mean they're passing. 

[Housh]

(12-27-2023, 05:37 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: A person claiming to be a time traveler from the future could tell me Jake Browning led us to a 27 - 3 victory or the Chiefs ran all over us en route to a 35 -10 beat down and I would have no idea if they were lying either way.

Though...the latter is more likely. If you can't stop the run then you will lose. Unless maybe both teams can't stop the run.

I don’t even think it’s this simple

We are a bad team. I don’t see the Chiefs losing under any conditions