The Abortion Question

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-16-2015, 12:56 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: I prefer sriracha sauce on all my unborn gametes, or zygotes, which ever comes first.

I bet Carly Fiorona has a secret video to prove it, too.

[fredtoast]

(10-15-2015, 03:49 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I know the yellowcake purchase was BS and the mobile chemical labs and centrifuges were all junk.
I'm referring to the huge convoy that headed into Syria.
Was that disproven and I'm not aware of it ?

http://blog.usni.org/2012/07/20/iraq-chemical-weapons-moved-to-syria-before-2003-invasion

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-10-29/news/0310290219_1_illicit-weapons-clapper-weapons-inspector

I know this is all off-topic and I apologize.
If I did miss it being disproved, just let me know, and I'll jump back out of here.

Saddam would never allow himself to be captured and killed without using every weapon he had.  

No way he just gave away all his weapons in order to get himself killed.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-15-2015, 08:55 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The life cycle diagrams show the stages of a life cycle.  A zygote is the stage of development after fertilization as gametes are the stage of development after gametogenesis as an embryo and embryogenesis.  You have successfully proven your point that people will go to great lengths to deny a stage of human development is a stage of human development and reminded me I don't have the patience to be a teacher.  Congrats.

Gametes are NOT a stage of human development. You can continue to claim them as such, but that doesn't make it true.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-15-2015, 06:55 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not a single one of those state that gametes are a stage of development. They do show what I've already said and that is that gametes are a PART of a stage of human development.

Not a single one of those state a zygote or an adult human is a stage of development, but they are.  Because the diagrams show the stages of development for people who don't understand words.  Like the words in post #546 . . .

Quote:Life cycles that include sexual reproduction involve alternating haploid (n) and diploid (2n) stages, i.e., a change of ploidy is involved. To return from a diploid stage to a haploid stage, meiosis must occur. In regard to changes of ploidy, there are 3 types of cycles:

• haplontic life cycle — the haploid stage is multicellular and the diploid stage is a single cell, meiosis is "zygotic".
• diplontic life cycle — the diploid stage is multicellular and haploid gametes are formed, meiosis is "gametic".
• haplodiplontic life cycle (also referred to as diplohaplontic, diplobiontic, or dibiontic life cycle) — multicellular diploid and haploid stages occur, meiosis is "sporic".
  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-15-2015, 07:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Gametogenesis is the process in which gametes are formed. Gametogenesis is NOT gametes. YOU claimed that gametes were a stage of development. They are NOT. They are A PART of a stage of development and they are necessary for development but they, in and of themselves are not a stage of development. You keep claiming that gametes are a stage of development and have yet to have proved your case.

Either post something from a reputable source that clearly and unequivocally states that GAMETES are a stage of development or that you "misspoke" and meant that "gametogenesis" is a stage of development.

The first diagram is from the National Center for Biotechnology Information and most (if not all) of the rest come from educational sites.  More credible than any "testamonial" from your Bible.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-15-2015, 08:19 PM)PhilHos Wrote: It's like talking to a wall. These are the STAGES of development from your frog image (cause the other is way too small to be of any use): GAMETOGENESIS, FERTILIZATION, METAMORPHOSIS, ETC. Gametes is not listed. Hmm? I wonder why? Maybe because they are not a STAGE of development?

Do you see "sperm" and "egg"?  Those are the names of the gametes!  Holy shit, batman!  The gametes are shown as stages in the life cycle plain as f'n day and they are labeled with their approriate names.  No wonder you don't understand, everything shown is correct with the appropriate nomenclature.

Quote:Yes, I'm tired of your bullshit. 

By "bullshit," of course you mean "scientific diagram appropriately depicting gametes as a stage of a development which confused me because the gametes were correctly labeled "sperm" and "egg."

Quote:Medical definitions of "gamete":
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/gamete

Notice not a SINGLE definition claims that gametes are a STAGE of development.

Let's compare that with "embryo"
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/embryo

Constantly referred to as a stage of development (my favorite, of course, is when they say it's the EARLIEST stage of development).

Of course, that is your favorite because it is completely wrong.  If it were correct that would mean a zygote isn't a stage in human development.  But, of course, a zygote is a stage of development which precedes the embryo.  Thus an embryo CANNOT be the EARLIEST stage of development.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/adult

Quote:having attained full size and strength; grown up; mature:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/adult

Quote:fully developed and mature

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/adult



[/url]

Quote:[url=http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/grown]grown to full size and strength:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/adult

Quote:1. One who has attained maturity or legal age.

2. Biology A fully grown, mature organism.

OMG . . . adult isn't listed as a stage of human development!!!!  My favorite is the biological definition "a fully grown, mature organism" which according to your logic isn't a stage in the development of any organism because the definition didn't specifically state "stage of development" in its definition.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-16-2015, 07:57 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Gametes are NOT a stage of human development. You can continue to claim them as such, but that doesn't make it true.

It is true, but not because I claim it to be.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-15-2015, 02:54 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Actually That is why I'm Pro choice.  Though the question is what would I want as the baby? Would I want to be born to a ***** that has a crack addiction? Nope.  I understand that's an extreme example, but its only one of many.

I think I would prefer life. At least I would have a chance.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(10-18-2015, 12:06 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I think I would prefer life.   At least I would have a chance.

And that was bfines opinion as well, which doesn't surprise me.

Like I said I can think of many examples in which I would prefer to not be born.  I just view it in terms of QUALITY of life and not QUANTITY of life.

[*Nately120*]

(10-18-2015, 12:06 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I think I would prefer life.   At least I would have a chance.

Hmm, I would assume most conservatives would claim to wanting to rather be dead than a total drain on society and/or a reason some welfare lifer gets a bigger cut of hard working Americans' tax dollars, but to each his own.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-17-2015, 08:26 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Not a single one of those state a zygote or an adult human is a stage of development, but they are.  Because the diagrams show the stages of development for people who don't understand words.  Like the words in post #546 . . .

Look again. See the words in ALL CAPS? THEY are the stages of development, not the other words (or are you honestly suggesting that "nucleus" and "neural tube" are both stages of development?).

(10-17-2015, 08:33 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: The first diagram is from the National Center for Biotechnology Information and most (if not all) of the rest come from educational sites.  More credible than any "testamonial" from your Bible.

I never mentioned the Bible, but thanks for getting personal. Tells everyone that you don't have an argument and/or are losing the argument.

(10-17-2015, 08:57 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: 1)Do you see "sperm" and "egg"?  Those are the names of the gametes!  Holy shit, batman!  The gametes are shown as stages in the life cycle plain as f'n day and they are labeled with their approriate names.  No wonder you don't understand, everything shown is correct with the appropriate nomenclature.

2)By "bullshit," of course you mean "scientific diagram appropriately depicting gametes as a stage of a development which confused me because the gametes were correctly labeled "sperm" and "egg."

3)Of course, that is your favorite because it is completely wrong.  If it were correct that would mean a zygote isn't a stage in human development.  But, of course, a zygote is a stage of development which precedes the embryo.  Thus an embryo CANNOT be the EARLIEST stage of development.

4) OMG . . . adult isn't listed as a stage of human development!!!!  My favorite is the biological definition "a fully grown, mature organism" which according to your logic isn't a stage in the development of any organism because the definition didn't specifically state "stage of development" in its definition.  

1) Of course, and when I think back to when I was in the "nucleus" stage ... I mean, after all, it's listed in the diagram, which means that EVERYTHING listed are obviously stages of development.

2) You obviously don't know how to read a diagram if you think that's what it was showing.

3) Actually, it's not wrong. Look at one of the definitions for "zygote": The early embryo that develops from a fertilized oocyte.


4) That's because "adult" is not the technical term. I believe the term that would be used is "mature": http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/mature

(10-17-2015, 08:59 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It is true, but not because I claim it to be.

And yet, you seem to have a hard time proving it to be true meanwhile I've provided clear cut evidence that it's not.

Please note: my original argument is that abortion is murder is because zygotes and embryos and fetuses and so on will become human beings if not aborted. All this talk about gametes being a stage or not has been your very successful attempt at obfuscating the argument to where we're no longer talking about abortion; another common tactic for pro choicers to avoid the realities of abortion. 

I say this because I'm done with you. I know you're going to respond with pretty much the same argument(s) you've been spouting the last few pages. Neither of us is giving ground nor will either of us admit to being wrong. I'm tired of this go around, so feel free to respond, but note that my lack of a response to your next post(s) is simply an indication that I'm done debating this with you. Call it whatever you want, but I'm done. I may last longer than most, but even I have my limits.

I say this with all sincerity: good day to you and God bless. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-18-2015, 06:30 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Look again. See the words in ALL CAPS? THEY are the stages of development, not the other words (or are you honestly suggesting that "nucleus" and "neural tube" are both stages of development?). 

No, I don't think a neural tube is a stage because it is a structure in the neurula stage.  Just as ectoderm, mesoderm, and endoderm are structures in the gastrula stage. 



A nucleus is a cell structure not a stage, either.  This diagram differentiates the oocyte ("egg") from the nurse and follicle cells (not labeled).  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_cell

The "ALL CAPS" are processes that produce an end product.  "FERTILIZATION" is a process and a zygote is the end product of that process, just like gametogenesis is a process and gametes are the end result of that process.  Even you admit a zygote (end product of a process) is a stage . . .

(10-11-2015, 11:04 AM)PhilHos Wrote: The fact of the matter that zybotes, embryos, fetuses, etc. are all stages of HUMAN development

. . . or are you going to continue to claim only the "ALL CAPS" are stages of development even though you previously stated the products of the processes are stages? 

Remember when you wrote "gamete" wasn't listed in the diagram?



Well, holy shit, there it is plain as day in the same diagram I posted before.

Quote:I never mentioned the Bible, but thanks for getting personal. Tells everyone that you don't have an argument and/or are losing the argument.

Your opinion that life begins at conception is based upon your religious views, not scientific views.  As I have shown you over and over, single celled gametes are just as alive as a single celled zygote.  You brought your religion into this, not me.

Quote:1) Of course, and when I think back to when I was in the "nucleus" stage ... I mean, after all, it's listed in the diagram, which means that EVERYTHING listed are obviously stages of development.

Again, "nucleus" is there to indicate a structure not a stage.  That's why there is a line indicating the structure and its associated nomenclature. 

Quote:2) You obviously don't know how to read a diagram if you think that's what it was showing.

Dude, you can't even recognize a label when it is pointing to the structure it is labeling!!!  I don't know if I should laugh because it is funny or cry because it is pathetic.

Quote:3) Actually, it's not wrong. Look at one of the definitions for "zygote": The early embryo that develops from a fertilized oocyte.

But, but, but . . . it didn't state it was a stage of human development.  Right?  Technically, a zygote and an embryo are two different stages.  A zygote is a single cell and an embryo is multicellular.

Quote:4) That's because "adult" is not the technical term. I believe the term that would be used is "mature": http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/mature

You're killing me, Smalls.  Are you a mature adult or an adult mature?  Do you understand the difference between an noun and an adjective?

Quote:And yet, you seem to have a hard time proving it to be true meanwhile I've provided clear cut evidence that it's not.

Besides the life cycle diagrams you can't decipher?  Or the description of haploid and diploid stages of development?

Quote:Please note: my original argument is that abortion is murder is because zygotes and embryos and fetuses and so on will become human beings if not aborted. All this talk about gametes being a stage or not has been your very successful attempt at obfuscating the argument to where we're no longer talking about abortion; another common tactic for pro choicers to avoid the realities of abortion.

Back up one step in the human life cycle and gametes will become human if fertilization (as you admit a stage of human development) is successful.  At which point they have an 80% chance of spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) the way god intended.

Quote:I say this because I'm done with you. I know you're going to respond with pretty much the same argument(s) you've been spouting the last few pages. Neither of us is giving ground nor will either of us admit to being wrong. I'm tired of this go around, so feel free to respond, but note that my lack of a response to your next post(s) is simply an indication that I'm done debating this with you. Call it whatever you want, but I'm done. I may last longer than most, but even I have my limits

Quitter.

Quote:I say this with all sincerity: good day to you and God bless.

John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend,
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approach'd the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, -"Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out his eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he,
"'Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: "E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can,
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Then, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

MORAL.
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!


http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html

Which God do you want to bless me?

[StLucieBengal]

(10-18-2015, 01:08 AM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: And that was bfines opinion as well, which doesn't surprise me.

Like I said I can think of many examples in which I would prefer to not be born.  I just view it in terms of QUALITY of life and not QUANTITY of life.

Isn't quality of life what we make of it? And to have quality you need quantity.

I see what your saying but you can't get on base unless you step up the plate . Yes some kids would have a harder life, but it's not like they are forced to stay in that life when they become adults

[StLucieBengal]

(10-18-2015, 01:26 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Hmm, I would assume most conservatives would claim to wanting to rather be dead than a total drain on society and/or a reason some welfare lifer gets a bigger cut of hard working Americans' tax dollars, but to each his own.

No, I am not anti benefits. Just think there needs to be a lifetime cap on everything. Also think the EBT cards should be tossed . Let them wait in line for government food. Where they are provided staples only.

[GodHatesBengals]

(10-20-2015, 04:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes some kids would have a harder life, but it's not like they are forced to stay in that life when they become adults

Ah, the good ol' "equality of opportunity" myth. Still alive and well with the densest and naivest among us.

You're a good person to recognize that non-sentient fetuses need to be protected and kept at the highest standard of living, while everything born has to make it for themselves against even impossible odds.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(10-20-2015, 04:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Isn't quality of life what we make of it?   And to have quality you need quantity.    

I see what your saying but you can't get on base  unless you step up the plate .  Yes some kids would have a harder life, but it's not like they are forced to stay in that life when they become adults

And I see what you are saying too.  However I wouldn't even want to play the game if I knew the dice were loaded against me. 

But the part I put in bold...easy for you to say...you're not the one that has to live that life.  Why is it that conservatives don't give a shit about you after you're born until you are of military age?

[SteelCitySouth]

(10-20-2015, 04:46 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: No, I am not anti benefits.  Just think there needs to be a lifetime cap on everything.   Also think the EBT cards should be tossed .  Let them wait in line for government food.   Where they are provided staples only.

Keep the EBT cards and open EBT stores (you basically have one anyway if you want them to wait in line at some facility to get stuff).  Make it so this is the only stored the EBT works in.  Provide only items approved for EBT.

[Rotobeast]

(10-21-2015, 01:45 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Keep the EBT cards and open EBT stores (you basically have one anyway if you want them to wait in line at some facility to get stuff).  Make it so this is the only stored the EBT works in.  Provide only items approved for EBT.

Nice idea.

Can we have drug screening and retinal scans at the checkout ?

[SteelCitySouth]

(10-21-2015, 01:49 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Nice idea.

Can we have drug screening and retinal scans at the checkout ?

Just as soon as we get one for Congress.

[Rotobeast]

(10-21-2015, 02:48 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Just as soon as we get one for Congress.

Then please attach senility screenings, please.