The Abortion Question

[SteelCitySouth]

(10-21-2015, 02:57 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Then please attach senility screenings, please.

I can get behind that.

[djs7685]

(10-21-2015, 01:45 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Keep the EBT cards and open EBT stores (you basically have one anyway if you want them to wait in line at some facility to get stuff).  Make it so this is the only stored the EBT works in.  Provide only items approved for EBT.

I like this proposition that stemmed from Lucie's idea, but there are obvious issues with it.

They can't just build these EBT stores on every corner, and if they only built 1 store in every X amount of miles per capita or something like that, there would still be plenty of people that have to travel very far to get to one of their designated stores.

I think the easiest solution would just be for them to cut down on what's actually approved for the damn cards to begin with. It would eliminate people complaining about them eating expensive, unnecessary junk while not making them drive across the state to go to a specifically designed shopping center. I don't know why so many things are approved for this to begin with.

[Vas Deferens]

(10-22-2015, 11:27 AM)djs7685 Wrote: They can't just build these EBT stores on every corner, and if they only built 1 store in every X amount of miles per capita or something like that, there would still be plenty of people that have to travel very far to get to one of their designated stores.

Also, there is no way the major grocery store conglomerates would allow that to happen.  

[Mike M (the other one)]

Ok, we have an argument that we need to have cleared up between oncemoreuntothejimb and Philos.

Philos, Gametogenesis is a stage of human development.

oncemoreuntothejimb, The fusion of sperm (23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (23 chromosomes) during fertilization will yield a single cell human zygote (with 46 chromosomes).

46 is the number of chromosomes is a common characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Biologically, this is now when the life of a human being begins, and it is recognized as an individual member of the human species. From this point forward it is now a genetically unique individual and will start to produce the necessary enzymes and proteins and genetically direct its own growth and development as a human being.

oncemoreuntothejimb, you are confusing "human life" with the issue of when does the life of every "human being" begin.
Kidneys, livers, sperm, oocytes all possess "human life", but they are not "human beings", they are merely parts of a "human being".

So there you have it, once we have a zygote, it is now a human being. Call it what you want after that point (Blob of cells, or any other stage of development), but fact is, it's now officially a human being.

I hope that helped.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-21-2015, 01:45 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Keep the EBT cards and open EBT stores (you basically have one anyway if you want them to wait in line at some facility to get stuff).  Make it so this is the only stored the EBT works in.  Provide only items approved for EBT.

I like this. I also like what djs mentioned above. Cutting down the list of approved items.

Should only be basic staples that are allowed under this system.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-22-2015, 07:23 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ok, we have an argument that we need to have cleared up between oncemoreuntothejimb and Philos.

Philos, Gametogenesis is a stage of human development.

oncemoreuntothejimb, The fusion of sperm (23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (23 chromosomes) during fertilization will yield a single cell human zygote (with 46 chromosomes).

46 is the number of chromosomes is a common characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Biologically, this is now when the life of a human being begins, and it is recognized as an individual member of the human species. From this point forward it is now a genetically unique individual and will start to produce the necessary enzymes and proteins and genetically direct its own growth and development as a human being.

oncemoreuntothejimb, you are confusing "human life" with the issue of when does the life of every "human being" begin.
Kidneys, livers, sperm, oocytes all possess "human life", but they are not "human beings", they are merely parts of a "human being".

So there you have it, once we have a zygote, it is now a human being. Call it what you want after that point (Blob of cells, or any other stage of development), but fact is, it's now officially a human being.

I hope that helped.

I'm not confusing anything.  I've have earned more than 130 semester hours of my butt sitting in a chair in a classroom studying human biology in PA school alone.  Doesn't include any classes as an undergrad biology major, self study, or annual continuing medical education.  What about you and the rest of the "life begins at conception" crowd?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-22-2015, 11:26 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm not confusing anything.  I've have earned more than 130 semester hours of my butt sitting in a chair in a classroom studying human biology in PA school alone.  Doesn't include any classes as an undergrad biology major, self study, or annual continuing medical education.  What about you and the rest of the "life begins at conception" crowd?

Are you trying to say that the life of an individual genetically distinct human being doesn't begin once it is classified as zygote? 
If so, please provide some links to some reputable sources, not diagrams. I'd be interested in seeing your source.

I thought my explanation was pretty clear, did anyone else not understand what I said?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-22-2015, 07:23 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Ok, we have an argument that we need to have cleared up between oncemoreuntothejimb and Philos.

Philos, Gametogenesis is a stage of human development.

oncemoreuntothejimb, The fusion of sperm (23 chromosomes) and the oocyte (23 chromosomes) during fertilization will yield a single cell human zygote (with 46 chromosomes).

46 is the number of chromosomes is a common characteristic of an individual member of the human species. Biologically, this is now when the life of a human being begins, and it is recognized as an individual member of the human species. From this point forward it is now a genetically unique individual and will start to produce the necessary enzymes and proteins and genetically direct its own growth and development as a human being.

oncemoreuntothejimb, you are confusing "human life" with the issue of when does the life of every "human being" begin.
Kidneys, livers, sperm, oocytes all possess "human life", but they are not "human beings", they are merely parts of a "human being".

So there you have it, once we have a zygote, it is now a human being. Call it what you want after that point (Blob of cells, or any other stage of development), but fact is, it's now officially a human being.

I hope that helped.

I recommend you stop plagiarizing websites or at least cite your source.  (Or would you like me to do it for you?  Hint: bfine was already tricked  into believing it wasn't a pro-life website, but a bunch of sciency folk from Princeton by the ".edu" web address.)

I'm not confusing "human life" with "human being."  You're plagiarizing a website's info you obviously don't understand.

If a kidney comes from a dog does it possess "dog life"?

PS It appears Dianne N. Irving's article has made the rounds of pro-life websites so it is possible you plagiarized her article from another source, but I have no doubt it was Dianne N. Irving whom you plagiarized. I thought you would learn after I caught you the last time.

[GMDino]

(10-23-2015, 07:25 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I recommend you stop plagiarizing websites or at least cite your source.  (Or would you like me to do it for you?  Hint: bfine was already tricked  into believing it wasn't a pro-life website, but a bunch of sciency folk from Princeton by the ".edu" web address.)

I'm not confusing "human life" with "human being."  You're plagiarizing a website's info you obviously don't understand.

If a kidney comes from a dog does it possess "dog life"?

PS  It appears Dianne N. Irving's article has made the rounds of pro-life websites so it is possible you plagiarized her article from another source, but I have no doubt it was Dianne N. Irving whom you plagiarized.  I thought you would learn after I caught you the last time.

http://lostinnocentsorthodox.blogspot.com/p/photographs.html

[/url]

Quote:[url=http://lostinnocentsorthodox.blogspot.com/]Lost Innocents
Practical helps for miscarriage from an Orthodox Christian perspective

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Photographs

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. --Genesis 1:27

It can be worrisome thinking about retrieving your baby for burial. One of the problems is knowing what you're looking for. If your baby is sixteen weeks gestation then there's no problem recognizing him. It's a different story if you're six weeks. Looking on the internet for photographs to aid you is a sticky business because you're likely to come across things you'd rather not have seen. Initially I culled the internet for some photographs of babies at each week gestation, but since then women have volunteered photos of their children for me to replace the "stock photos". I have included sizes if the baby is not in a recognizable context, such as in a parent's hand. A heartfelt "thank you" to all of the women who have graciously allowed me to post photographs of their babies. [If you have natural photographs of your baby and would be willing to include them on this page, I would be grateful to hear from you.]

[Important note on recognizing the baby: Depending on how long it has been since the baby died, you may notice that the baby is smaller than you would expect for the age he/she was at death. Their size shrinks over time and so a baby who grew for eight weeks may only appear to be six to seven weeks at the time of delivery (or if another ultrasound is performed). This can be confusing to you. If, in fact, your baby died at six weeks but it is another few weeks before you deliver, you may not be able to see anything at all by the time you complete the miscarriage. Don't feel that your baby never existed. As difficult as it is to experience, if you were pregnant, then you had a baby and you are that baby's parent forever. 

In addition, depending on the time elapsed between death and delivery, you may see something different in terms of the sac. Usually the amount of amniotic fluid decreases over time so depending on how much there was to start with, you may or may not see a nice, full "bubble". In addition (and this is important), the uterus will form a clot around the sac/baby as time goes on. This means that you may deliver the baby in the sac very obviously, or you may deliver a sac with a clot attached, or you may deliver what appears to be a large clot or placenta but which is actually the sac enclosed in a clot. Especially if you feel as though you are completing the miscarriage but haven't seen the sac, check inside the large clots. This sounds gross, but it will feel a little different when you are looking for your baby. The clot will be on the sac, not the baby (all things being equal) so you will still be able to remove the baby from the sac if you so desire. When my first son was born his sac had a large clot attached. It covered about 1/3 of the surface. When my second son was born there was no clot attached at all.]

The pictures are on the site.

[Rotobeast]

This is how I'm interpreting this thread.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-22-2015, 07:23 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Philos, Gametogenesis is a stage of human development.

I never said it wasn't.

(10-24-2015, 01:51 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: This is how I'm interpreting this thread.

This meme always cracks me up.

[StLucieBengal]

So a pro life website is not allowed to post anything with substantive facts?

Seems to me they would have to be extra careful given the nature of the site.

[JustWinBaby]

Just wondering....if the taxpayer pays for birth control, why does the taxpayer have to pay for abortions?

[Rotobeast]

(10-25-2015, 06:02 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Just wondering....if the taxpayer pays for birth control, why does the taxpayer have to pay for abortions?

Imagine what an interesting world it would be, if every individual could specify where their tax dollars went.

[StLucieBengal]

(10-25-2015, 07:55 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: Imagine what an interesting world it would be, if every individual could specify where their tax dollars went.

Heck I would settle for them only spending what they brought in.....

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-25-2015, 01:44 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: So a pro life website is not allowed to post anything with substantive facts?  

Seems to me they would have to be extra careful given the nature of the site.

1)  What website?

2)  Who said the unnamed website wasn't allowed to post facts?

3)  Extra careful like the producers of the Planned Parenthood videos which you posted and I viewed and they edited a woman talking about a miscarriage to make it seem like she was talking about an abortion?  Is that the type of extra careful you're talking about?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-24-2015, 11:21 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I never said it wasn't.


This meme always cracks me up.

Gametogenesis is a process which produces gametes like fertilization is a process which produces zygotes.  One of us (the biology major) claims all four of those are stages in human development while one of us (the nonbiology major) claims 3/4 are stages of human development.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-25-2015, 10:41 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Gametogenesis is a process which produces gametes like fertilization is a process which produces zygotes.  One of us (the biology major) claims all four of those are stages in human development while one of us (the nonbiology major) claims 3/4 are stages of human development.

You're not very bright, are you? What part of "I'm done 'discussing' this with you" are you having trouble understanding?

Incorrectly restating the argument while adding a passive-aggressive ad hominem comment is NOT going to make me more inclined to re-enter a worthless, pointless and stupid debate.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-25-2015, 04:00 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You're not very bright, are you? What part of "I'm done 'discussing' this with you" are you having trouble understanding?

Incorrectly restating the argument while adding a passive-aggressive ad hominem comment is NOT going to make me more inclined to re-enter a worthless, pointless and stupid debate.

1) You are discussing it.  If you weren't then you wouldn't have commented.  Again.  After you wrote you were done commenting.

2)  Your first sentence is ad hominem.  What part of my statement was ad hominem?  Correctly stating you weren't a biology major?

3)  What did I state incorrectly?

[*PhilHos*]

(10-25-2015, 04:49 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: 1) You are discussing it.  If you weren't then you wouldn't have commented.  Again.  After you wrote you were done commenting.

2)  Your first sentence is ad hominem.  What part of my statement was ad hominem?  Correctly stating you weren't a biology major?

3)  What did I state incorrectly?

I said I was done discussing it WITH YOU.