The Trans Movement Just Hit Home.......

[*Nately120*]

If I'm one of those women on the podium getting silver or bronze I take that medal to the nearest conservative-run corporation and say "Look at this crap....give me a job."  Or whatever it is people get for being good athletes.  I haven't the foggiest, I couldn't even make the tiddleywinks team. 

Or a gofundme.  I got cheated by the woke mob, give me money or the woke mob wins and you love the woke mob.

OR you could parlay getting slighted like that into a career in conservative politics or punditry.  If you play your cards right, something like this could pay off a lot more than coming in 1st place would have.  

[*pally*]

Arguments about who does or does not belong in women’s sport competition has been around my entire life. Remember, the East German women athletes? Before, the rules have always come from each sport’s individual federations. But, now because conservatives have to be outraged about everything politicians are getting involved. Transgender women participating in sports is still extremely rare though by right wing news coverage you would think it is commonplace. Shoot it was just a year or so that they were all up in arms about Megan Rapino and all her lesbian friends thinking they were equal to men. Let sports organizations set their own rules for participation. Keep politicians out of it

Just like CRT, drag queen groomers, and pornography in school libraries this is a manufactured crisis by right wing provocateurs designed solely to gin up the MAGA base,

And Brad there are not hoards of pretend disabled people standing in line “stealing” the resources you think you deserve…unless you are talking about parking places.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-03-2023, 09:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: I remember your deep concern for women's sports before this happened. 

https://www.aclu.org/news/lgbtq-rights/four-myths-about-trans-athletes-debunked

That may be the worst myth busting article I’ve ever seen. Their “facts” are opinions.

[*pally*]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heres-why-human-sex-is-not-binary/

[GMDino]

(05-03-2023, 10:33 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: It wasn’t a “point”. It was a “question”. Thanks for “answering”.

You proposed two things that weren't even being talked about and assumed your answer.  That was you making a "point".

So I brought it back to the topic at hand.

No one should be beating anyone up and your fear of transwomen in sports is overblown.  There's your answer.

[Millhouse]

(05-03-2023, 09:27 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote:

Except gold

Caitlyn Jenner would agree. And she being a trans-woman who at one time won the Olympic gold medal for men in the decathlon probably should have her opinion heard more on this topic. However since she does identify as a Republican, her opinions are moot and ignored to the liberal left.

[GMDino]

(05-04-2023, 05:00 AM)michaelsean Wrote: That may be the worst myth busting article I’ve ever seen. Their “facts” are opinions.

Somewhere around .06% of people in America identify as trans.  Can't find that link from the other day but there is this one with lots of stats.

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/trans-adults-united-states/

A smaller percentage would be of age to participate in women's sports in school.

It's a completely overblown "point" designed to create fear and make people fight about unimportant things.

I'll gladly accept my daily thumbs down for that...lol.

[XenoMorph]

(05-04-2023, 08:45 AM)pally Wrote: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/heres-why-human-sex-is-not-binary/

is it just humans? or is it all animals?

[Belsnickel]

(05-04-2023, 09:52 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: is it just humans? or is it all animals?

It does exist in some other species. Pigs are one notable example where it occurs at almost the same prevalence as with humans. I am aware of intersex conditions in other mammals, fishes, and crustaceans. I don't understand the crustacean ones, just that my sister explained it to me once (she has her Ph.D. in those critters) during a conversation about this topic.

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 03:54 AM)pally Wrote: Arguments about who does or does not belong in women’s sport competition has been around my entire life. Remember, the East German women athletes? Before, the rules have always come from each sport’s individual federations.  But, now because conservatives have to be outraged about everything politicians are getting involved. Transgender women participating in sports is still extremely rare though by right wing news coverage you would think it is commonplace.  Shoot it was just a year or so that they were all up in arms about Megan Rapino and all her lesbian friends thinking they were equal to men.  Let sports organizations set their own rules for participation.  Keep politicians out of it

Just like CRT, drag queen groomers, and pornography in school libraries this is a manufactured crisis by right wing provocateurs designed solely to gin up the MAGA base,

And Brad there are not hoards of pretend disabled people standing in line “stealing” the resources you think you deserve…unless you are talking about parking places.

I do recall lesbians and/or overly masculine yet biological women being in women's sports was a talking point decades ago.   Martina Navratalova was cited as being a bit of an unfair opponent for Chris Evert, for example.  Chris was at least seen as the attractive feminime underdog. 

It had more than a bit of a "this may be legal but it ain't fair, damn it" vibe about it. 

[Belsnickel]

(05-04-2023, 10:16 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I do recall lesbians and/or overly masculine yet biological women being in women's sports was a talking point decades ago.   Martina Navratalova was cited as being a bit of an unfair opponent for Chris Evert, for example.  Chris was at least seen as the attractive feminime underdog. 

It had more than a bit of a "this may be legal but it ain't fair, damn it" vibe about it. 

There are some instances of cis women who have conditions where they have higher-than-average levels of testosterone in their bodies being told they are unable to compete unless they take hormone blockers. This is something we are seeing currently in women's sports.

[Dill]

(05-03-2023, 03:23 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You're saying anyone is female just because they say they are.

You're not thinking about all the different hormones, chemical levels, dealing with things like periods, most women being able to bear children and whatever else that is unique to women by just saying anyone can be one.

And it's a disservice because all of the things I listed above are struggles that women go through and have to deal with and saying "oh, well anyone can do all that."

Again, where do I say this. Cite thread and post and line. So far this is only you saying I say it.

Also, I don't see how listing chemical changes and periods and child bearing is a "service" to women. That used to be part of
the argument against allowing women the vote.

(05-03-2023, 03:23 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: False. 
The objective reality of what a woman is can't change. The people who enslaved blacks had a subjective reality, which you're actually proving my point because, just because someone sees something in a certain way, i.e. that they're really a woman when they're actually a man, doesn't change the reality that they're actually a man.

Perhaps it can't, but no one directly apprehends whatever that "objective reality" is. 

It is ALWAYS mediated by culture.

People who thought women and blacks should not have full citizenship 

did not think they were acting on some "subjective reality."

Like you, they believed that "history" proved their subjective reality to be objective.
 

[CJD]

(05-04-2023, 11:40 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: There are some instances of cis women who have conditions where they have higher-than-average levels of testosterone in their bodies being told they are unable to compete unless they take hormone blockers. This is something we are seeing currently in women's sports.

The question that no one seems to want to know the answer to is what do cis men have that would make them more competitive than cis woman, should they choose to transition to trans women?

Is it physical proportions? Is it hormones? Is it a combination of the two? 

I guess it may depend on the sport. Wingspan is arguably a big deal in swimming, which would make a trans woman who is 6'1" tall with long arms due to transitioning post puberty may have an advantage over cis women that cannot be changed via hormone therapy.

But then...what if there's an unusually tall cis woman? If you ban the trans woman from competing due to her physical proportions, do you also have to ban cis women who fall beyond whatever arbitrary line you have set?

Same goes for hormones, as you pointed out.

Trans women are not exactly dominating women's sports, so it's not like any trans woman will be superior to any cis woman. The cis women can still obviously compete, so why does it matter if a trans woman occasionally wins an event? Lia Thomas won some races, set a few records but also lost some races. One of her competitors in the 2022 season was a trans man who chose not to take testosterone or any other hormone therapy so that he could continue to compete that season. And he beat Lia in several races throughout the year. 

I just don't see trans women "taking over" any women's sports, which you would think they would do if they truly were inarguably superior to cis women, athletically.

And trans people, for all the media attention they receive, still represent an incredibly small percentage of people, not only in sports but in general. 

Why craft laws or regulations that would disqualify trans women from sports when, to my knowledge, there is no statistical evidence that they are categorically and unfairly superior to cis women in any given sporting event (following a minimum period of hormone therapy, as is currently the NCAA policy)?

Like I said in my original post, I think the outrage over trans people (And trans women in particular) is less so due to it being an actual issue that is affecting many (or any) people negatively, and more just one of three points: fear mongering by people interested in your money/vote/viewership, disgust and gay/trans panic, or the appeal to tradition and the fear of the younger generation and their "depravity."

[Dill]

(05-03-2023, 08:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: He didn't say that you said that, he asserted that another action would impose that as a disservice to women.  

You are saying the following responses (#42, 44) were not addressed to me? 

(05-03-2023, 10:07 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: You’re also doing a disservice to women by just saying anyone can be a woman whenever they want just by saying they’re a woman.

(05-03-2023, 03:23 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You're saying anyone is female just because they say they are.

Maybe one could substitute "one" for the first "you," meaning he meant "anyone," but certainly not the second. 

(05-03-2023, 08:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: On the last bolded, let's use a recent PR mistake by a huge corporation as an example.  Anheuser Busch decided to embrace the trans community, they have paid dearly for their actions.  Clearly the "change in objective reality" hasn't occurred for their target audience.  I think that you could summarize that by simply stating;  The market has spoken..

LOL I don't think the "market" is transphobic. How would "the market" have responded to Jackie Robinson endorsing a beer back in 1947?
But it sounds like you agree with me that the "objective reality" of sex and gender is a social construction.

[Dill]

(05-04-2023, 12:01 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The question that no one seems to want to know the answer to is what do cis men have that would make them more competitive than cis woman, should they choose to transition to trans women?

I think that would be the "frame."

Men have bigger bones and muscles to operate them by the time they are 14-15. 

Can't operate or hormone that advantage away.  The advantage is probably different in different sports.

[Dill]

(05-04-2023, 09:26 AM)Millhouse Wrote: Caitlyn Jenner would agree. And she being a trans-woman who at one time won the Olympic gold medal for men in the decathlon probably should have her opinion heard more on this topic. However since she does identify as a Republican, her opinions are moot and ignored to the liberal left.

The "liberal left" assess arguments on the basis of political party, not logical inference from evidence given? 

[Millhouse]

(05-04-2023, 12:46 PM)Dill Wrote: The "liberal left" assess arguments on the basis of political party, not logical inference from evidence given? 

I meant radical left.

[Dill]

(05-04-2023, 10:16 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I do recall lesbians and/or overly masculine yet biological women being in women's sports was a talking point decades ago.   Martina Navratalova was cited as being a bit of an unfair opponent for Chris Evert, for example.  Chris was at least seen as the attractive feminime underdog. 

It had more than a bit of a "this may be legal but it ain't fair, damn it" vibe about it. 

They allow girls to wrestle boys in HS now.

I went to the Bo Wood tournament here in Indiana last January, where I saw two girls compete.

One girl won at least two matches. She didn't have the power but wrestled tough and smart. And she didn't look "masculine" at all.

That's pretty amazing, as it's the last sport (except maybe football) where I'd think girls can compete equally with boys.

[*Nately120*]

(05-04-2023, 12:50 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I meant radical left.

Didn't Caitlyn Jenner run for office?  Based upon the voter response, I'd say the right isn't listening.  

[*michaelsean*]

(05-04-2023, 12:01 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The question that no one seems to want to know the answer to is what do cis men have that would make them more competitive than cis woman, should they choose to transition to trans women?

Is it physical proportions? Is it hormones? Is it a combination of the two? 

I guess it may depend on the sport. Wingspan is arguably a big deal in swimming, which would make a trans woman who is 6'1" tall with long arms due to transitioning post puberty may have an advantage over cis women that cannot be changed via hormone therapy.

But then...what if there's an unusually tall cis woman? If you ban the trans woman from competing due to her physical proportions, do you also have to ban cis women who fall beyond whatever arbitrary line you have set?

Same goes for hormones, as you pointed out.

Trans women are not exactly dominating women's sports, so it's not like any trans woman will be superior to any cis woman. The cis women can still obviously compete, so why does it matter if a trans woman occasionally wins an event? Lia Thomas won some races, set a few records but also lost some races. One of her competitors in the 2022 season was a trans man who chose not to take testosterone or any other hormone therapy so that he could continue to compete that season. And he beat Lia in several races throughout the year. 

I just don't see trans women "taking over" any women's sports, which you would think they would do if they truly were inarguably superior to cis women, athletically.

And trans people, for all the media attention they receive, still represent an incredibly small percentage of people, not only in sports but in general. 

Why craft laws or regulations that would disqualify trans women from sports when, to my knowledge, there is no statistical evidence that they are categorically and unfairly superior to cis women in any given sporting event (following a minimum period of hormone therapy, as is currently the NCAA policy)?

Like I said in my original post, I think the outrage over trans people (And trans women in particular) is less so due to it being an actual issue that is affecting many (or any) people negatively, and more just one of three points: fear mongering by people interested in your money/vote/viewership, disgust and gay/trans panic, or the appeal to tradition and the fear of the younger generation and their "depravity."

Musculature and skeletal.  

"During the last season in the NCAA, Lia Thomas competed in the men’s division, in 2018-19. There, she ranked 554th in the 200-yd freestyle, and she is now fifth in the event this year.

Furthermore, in the 500-yd freestyle, Thomas was 65th in the country. Now, she ranked first place in the event this year. Finally, in the 1650 freestyle, she is now eighth in the nation, as opposed to 32nd in the men’s division."


I mean it's really not a question.

If you put me against a woman college swimmer I'd lose the 200 by 100 yds or more. But male college athlete versus female college athlete there's an issue.