The death of P&R and what it says about where we are.

[*Nately120*]

(03-06-2023, 08:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't particularly disagree with you, other than he wouldn't find a way to lock things down for good. Our system has a lot of flaws, but it's pretty great at ensuring power transfer. I would consider holding my nose and voting for Biden if he were about 6 years younger. I already don't like voting for people I don't like, but I honestly don't love Biden's odds of making it through term 2 alive (86 isn't a great bet). If he dies Kamala Harris takes over the remainder of the term and also gets incumbent status for 2028. 

So I will probably just "throw away" my vote on 3rd party again, assuming we haven't been mutually reduced to radioactive ashes with Russia before this election ever comes about, rendering all this talk pointless.

I'd eagerly vote for Biden if he said "I'm probably going to die so I'm going to make Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly my VP!"

With that being said, I'm pretty sure Trump wouldn't turn the country into a semi-dictatorship/royal family thing but the fact that he pulled that whole 1/6 thing and we are possibly going to reelect him makes me think enough people may want that for it to happen.  If Trump wins in 2024 we'd be looking at a period of 12+ years where a major political figure in a major political party has made the illegitimacy of our democracy a key point of his campaign and presidency.  

If this country will make a politician who says our democracy is a rigged farce the face of the GOP and the builder of the new GOP and elect him twice...well, it's safe to say enough people are at least ok with resistance to transfers of power that we could be amenable to exploring the idea since it clearly isn't a deal-breaker.

Of course, then there is the possibility that this stuff fizzles out without Trump, too.

[Millhouse]

The main thing I observe about P&R these days is how one sided the topics are unlike the older days. I am sure there are reasons why this is happening, but I don't want to get into them.

Here some recent topics I think folks that are right leaning should post about that imo are good topics to help start balancing out P&R again.

COVID 19 - Nothing much at all talked about this after both the Dpt. of Energy and FBI both have recently come out and stated it probably was a lab leak from the Wuhan Lab in China. Remember how the left and Fauci swore up and down it couldn't be, and any other reason was a right wing conspiracy basically, or racism. Well, not so much a conspiracy after all now is it. But the left see seems in denial of this, or just trying to ignore it. (For the record, I was always skeptical of how it began, because this is China afterall, but for the most part believed Fauci. I was wrong.)

Walmart is closing it's stores in Portland, OR with theft as a reason.

A proposal in San Francisco for $5 million dollar reparations for each black citizen there, if they meet certain criteria including being imprisoned for drug charges.

[*Nately120*]

(03-06-2023, 09:39 PM)Millhouse Wrote: COVID 19 - Nothing much at all talked about this after both the Dpt. of Energy and FBI both have recently come out and stated it probably was a lab leak from the Wuhan Lab in China. Remember how the left and Fauci swore up and down it couldn't be, and any other reason was a right wing conspiracy basically, or racism. Well, not so much a conspiracy after all now is it. But the left see seems in denial of this, or just trying to ignore it. (For the record, I was always skeptical of how it began, because this is China afterall, but for the most part believed Fauci. I was wrong.)

The main thing that stuck out to me about the right-wing going on about covid coming from a Chinese lab wasn't so much as if it were true or not, but why the political party that is anti-China would be the one to intentionally leave themselves vulnerable to a Chinese bio weapon.

I rather Socratically accepted that it was from Wuhan when discussing it with right-wingers and I wondered why they'd let themselves be taken out by Chinese terrorists.

[samhain]

(03-06-2023, 09:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The main thing that stuck out to me about the right-wing going on about covid coming from a Chinese lab wasn't so much as if it were true or not, but why the political party that is anti-China would be the one to intentionally leave themselves vulnerable to a Chinese bio weapon.

I rather Socratically accepted that it was from Wuhan when discussing it with right-wingers and I wondered why they'd let themselves be taken out by Chinese terrorists.

I don't know if it was a bio-weapon or just major mishandling.  

If it was a bio weapon, then China is as inept as Russia.  At this stage of the game, they are of if not the country suffering from it the most right now.  Their vaccines are ineffective and the complete lockdown ensured that they never built herd immunity.

[*Nately120*]

(03-06-2023, 10:22 PM)samhain Wrote: I don't know if it was a bio-weapon or just major mishandling.  

If it was a bio weapon, then China is as inept as Russia.  At this stage of the game, they are of if not the country suffering from it the most right now.  Their vaccines are ineffective and the complete lockdown ensured that they never built herd immunity.

Well it was one of those bioweapons that got outta hand, you know...sci-fi stuff.

[samhain]

If I were forced to give an issue that I'm surprised at the lack of discussion over, it would be the actual impact of what has happened over the last year in Ukraine. Sure, it's been discussed from some angles, but the situation is just something that seemed so unlikely 12 months ago that it's hard to believe it's real.

For ages, Putin was regarded as a leader that was playing chess while every US president was playing checkers for the length of his tenure. He dragged Bush for the issues with Iraq. He basically refused to give Obama and ounce of respect, and Obama returned the sentiment. He was allegedly playing Trump over the pee tape. He tried to start the largest land war in Europe since WW2 on Biden's watch, possibly the biggest display of disrespect he could muster.

Now he looks like a cornered con-man. The Russian army proves itself to be less effective than the Iraqis under Saddam. The only thing left in his bag of tricks is his nuclear arsenal, if it's indeed still functional. One of the only two countries on the planet regarded as a legitimate threat to American hegemony has volunteered to show us that it definitely isn't. It's fair to think that an actual war with NATO would go exponentially worse for Russia than a proxy war with a bordering country that just recently acquired enough tanks to stop having to move on foot to new objectives. The world's boogeyman shot his shot, and it turned out that he was holding a pop gun the whole time.

I know people have mixed feelings on our involvement an investment, but the self-removal of Putin as a serious statesman/bully is a fascinating development to me, and a solid real-time clinic in why autocracy fails every single time if you give it enough rope.

[*Nately120*]

(03-06-2023, 10:43 PM)samhain Wrote: If I were forced to give an issue that I'm surprised at the lack of discussion over, it would be the actual impact of what has happened over the last year in Ukraine.  Sure, it's been discussed from some angles, but the situation is just something that seemed so unlikely 12 months ago that it's hard to believe it's real.

For ages, Putin was regarded as a leader that was playing chess while every US president was playing checkers for the length of his tenure.  He dragged Bush for the issues with Iraq.  He basically refused to give Obama and ounce of respect, and Obama returned the sentiment.  He was allegedly playing Trump over the pee tape.  He tried to start the largest land war in Europe since WW2 on Biden's watch, possibly the biggest display of disrespect he could muster.

Now he looks like a cornered con-man.  The Russian army proves itself to be less effective than the Iraqis under Saddam.  The only thing left in his bag of tricks is his nuclear arsenal, if it's indeed still functional.  One of the only two countries on the planet regarded as a legitimate threat to American hegemony has volunteered to show us that it definitely isn't.  It's fair to think that an actual war with NATO would go exponentially worse for Russia than a proxy war with a bordering country that just recently acquired enough tanks to stop having to move on foot to new objectives.  The world's boogeyman shot his shot, and it turned out that he was holding a pop gun the whole time.  

I know people have mixed feelings on our involvement an investment, but the self-removal of Putin as a serious statesman/bully is a fascinating development to me, and a solid real-time clinic in why autocracy fails every single time if you give it enough rope.

I would imagine that Putin thinking he could get this done on a long weekend and it turning into this should be a cautionary tale to any country that thinks it is a good idea to put a "strong man" in power who is unable to be challenged politically or tactically.


Strong people don't live with a "tell me I'm right, or I'll kill you" mentality.  That's how you end up throwing your country down the drain.

[samhain]

(03-06-2023, 10:50 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I would imagine that Putin thinking he could get this done on a long weekend and it turning into this should be a cautionary tale to any country that thinks it is a good idea to put a "strong man" in power who is unable to be challenged politically or tactically.


Strong people don't live with a "tell me I'm right, or I'll kill you" mentality.  That's how you end up throwing your country down the drain.

Yep.  When there's pertinent information and someone is afraid to deliver it for fear of death or imprisonment, the chances of operating with bad intel are are almost 100 percent.  It would be like me telling my kid how tough he is and that he better not take any shit at school until he inevitable gets his ass kicked by someone that actually knows how to throw hands.

[*Nately120*]

(03-06-2023, 11:02 PM)samhain Wrote: Yep.  When there's pertinent information and someone is afraid to deliver it for fear of death or imprisonment, the chances of operating with bad intel are are almost 100 percent.  

On a similar note, my cousin married a woman who is 150% legit batshit nuts and any time he dared question her decisions she would do something like start hitting herself and threatening to call the police and said he did it, or she'd threaten to download CP on his phone and call the police, etc.  So, they did everything she deemed logical.

He ended up moving back in with his mother because she wasted or gave all their money away and they couldn't pay their rent and she refused to live in the house with him because it was "demonic" so she told him to buy her a tent so she could live in the back yard and so he did.  And he said something along the lines of "We did things your way and you are living in a tent and shitting in a bucket under a tarp" and she she doubled-down on it all being his fault and she also said her mother was hiring people to gang-stalk her and she was pretty sure he was in on it.

So yeah, the whole Putin thing seems pretty similar to that...except when you are a dictator I guess your own citizens end up being the ones living in tents.

[Rotobeast]

I can't believe there isn't a thread about Big Larry's trial in Cincy.


Sent from my SM-S515DL using Tapatalk

[GMDino]

(03-06-2023, 09:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The main thing that stuck out to me about the right-wing going on about covid coming from a Chinese lab wasn't so much as if it were true or not, but why the political party that is anti-China would be the one to intentionally leave themselves vulnerable to a Chinese bio weapon.

I rather Socratically accepted that it was from Wuhan when discussing it with right-wingers and I wondered why they'd let themselves be taken out by Chinese terrorists.

This is something I was talking about recently.  No matter where it came from a large group of American's decided to not protect themselves because...reasons.  Even when their leader told them to do it.  It's bizarre.  But it also shows how if there was an actual attack we'd be doomed...which isn't surprising at all.

[treee]

As far as I'm aware no agency has their analysis designated at "high confidence". They all either have "low confidence" in the lab theory or they have low confidence in the market theory.

[Dill]

(03-05-2023, 08:53 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Trump and Covid ruined it. Anything not about Trump was deemed irrelevant. Then people kept yelling about authoritarianism while ignoring what was going on during Covid. Even cheering it.  The most authoritarian time in my life. But there was a good reason for this authoritarianism in their opinion so it was ok. It was science. Which of course it wasn’t. The definition of science was redefined so people could justify the authoritarianism they pretend to hate. They don’t hate it. They hate it when it doesn’t support their views. That was enough for me. If an interesting topic comes up that doesn’t involve straight political ideology or maybe a religious topic I’ll jump in. Otherwise no thanks.

Sounds like you've said your piece here.  But I would like to register one small complaint--

I don't see how "what was going on during Covid" falls under any definition of "authoritarianism" I am familiar with. 
 
Mask mandates certainly don’t. Politicians in various states and the federal government tried to respond to a pandemic with existing laws, protocols, temporary measures, and expert knowledge at hand—to stop people from dying. As knowledge of Covid and how it spread increased, recommendations changed as the science changed; science itself was not "redefined." It is inevitable that during a pandemic, a government might have to take (temporary) measures the populace does not like. That's why we need to plan ahead for them, and maybe understand the process ahead of time as well. But taking lawful emergency measures during a health emergency is not itself "authoritarianism." One has to overgeneralize the term to cover most any government action to get the double standard you claim here.

Meanwhile, certain news organizations created as much pro-"freedom" counter buzz as they could, from the get go: the government (except Trump) was “lying,” attacking our “freedoms” incrementally to train us into obedience. Rather than explaining how science is supposed to work in the process and appreciating the difficulty of "getting it right," those organizations preferred to embed double standards, hypocrisy and incompetence into every policy shift. Personal attacks on medical experts abounded, as these hesitated to support Trump pronouncements; at the same time they gave quack treatments/doctors a national platform. 
 
I suspect that most of the "yelling about authoritarianism" that you didn't like concerned actual authoritarianism--a certain president placing himself above rule of law with party protection, attempting a coup, and his party afterwards doing their damnedest to pass "election integrity" laws in swing states to protect against fraud that never occurred. Yet Trump's final year was NOT "the most authoritarian time" in your life? 

That millions want to re-elect him is why Trump continues to be not only "relevant," but makes authoritarian Trumpism the primary problem in our current politics.

[*Nately120*]

(03-07-2023, 10:23 AM)GMDino Wrote: This is something I was talking about recently.  No matter where it came from a large group of American's decided to not protect themselves because...reasons.  Even when their leader told them to do it.  It's bizarre.  But it also shows how if there was an actual attack we'd be doomed...which isn't surprising at all.

Ida know, I had a bit of a dialog with small town right-wing folks about this and they basically concluded that when the government tells you to wear a mask it is your patriotic duty to disobey, but when the government asks you to stop what you are doing and risk your life and sanity in a foreign war it is your patriotic duty to shut up and march.

So if the government tells you to get a covid vaccine and wear a mask you tell them hell no but if the army tells you to get 100 vaccines and wear a gas mask you say hell yes.


I still don't see how people can say Trump is a good businessman when he had the chance to declare covid a Chinese attack and sell MAGA masks in boxes of 100 to 75 million Americans.  The guy had the chance to legally mandate and patriotically compel people to buy stuff from him.

[BigPapaKain]

I imagine it has to do with the fact that the political landscape got boring after Cheddar Cheese got voted out of office and the Big Lie was finally accepted as a lie by pundits.

Now it's just business as normal; neoliberals doing **** all and getting stone walled by the GoP anyways. Just the way the founding fathers wanted it. The churches haven't been ***** as many kids, so that's out. The Squad on either side of the aisle are largely ignored because people are tired of their nonsense.

[Rotobeast]

(03-08-2023, 07:09 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I still don't see how people can say Trump is a good businessman when he had the chance to declare covid a Chinese attack and sell MAGA masks in boxes of 100 to 75 million Americans.  The guy had the chance to legally mandate and patriotically compel people to buy stuff from him.

I think he was hoping it'd go away. He felt that if he gave it much "air time" that people would become more frantic. I believe that actually hurt him. As I was campaigning for State Rep in 2020, folks (especially seniors) felt abandoned on the matter and left hanging in the wind. I watched campaign signs in Perry County (quite the conservative rural county) go from 85% Trump to around 65-70% (all eyeball estimates) in the matter of the last 2 months leading up to the election. As far as taking advantage of the situation, he would have had to outsource outside of the country and those factories were bombarded. I believe there were only 1 substantial and 1 minor mask making companies left in the US. That is why some silicon valley techs formed the company Aegle to manufacture masks in Texas. 

Meh.... one good thing coming from Covid.... Ohio will become the top semiconductor producer in the world.

[NATI BENGALS]

Who killed P&R?

[GMDino]

(03-09-2023, 06:17 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: I think he was hoping it'd go away. He felt that if he gave it much "air time" that people would become more frantic. I believe that actually hurt him. As I was campaigning for State Rep in 2020, folks (especially seniors) felt abandoned on the matter and left hanging in the wind. I watched campaign signs in Perry County (quite the conservative rural county) go from 85% Trump to around 65-70% (all eyeball estimates) in the matter of the last 2 months leading up to the election. As far as taking advantage of the situation, he would have had to outsource outside of the country and those factories were bombarded. I believe there were only 1 substantial and 1 minor mask making companies left in the US. That is why some silicon valley techs formed the company Aegle to manufacture masks in Texas. 

Meh.... one good thing coming from Covid.... Ohio will become the top semiconductor producer in the world.

That's my thought too.  He's not a hard worker and his image is everything.  Any sign of fear or failure would make him look weak, in his own mind.  So he just treated it like he does anything he doesn't like.  He made light of it and hoped it would go away.

[grampahol]

(03-06-2023, 11:12 PM)Nately120 Wrote: On a similar note, my cousin married a woman who is 150% legit batshit nuts and any time he dared question her decisions she would do something like start hitting herself and threatening to call the police and said he did it, or she'd threaten to download CP on his phone and call the police, etc.  So, they did everything she deemed logical.

He ended up moving back in with his mother because she wasted or gave all their money away and they couldn't pay their rent and she refused to live in the house with him because it was "demonic" so she told him to buy her a tent so she could live in the back yard and so he did.  And he said something along the lines of "We did things your way and you are living in a tent and shitting in a bucket under a tarp" and she she doubled-down on it all being his fault and she also said her mother was hiring people to gang-stalk her and she was pretty sure he was in on it.

So yeah, the whole Putin thing seems pretty similar to that...except when you are a dictator I guess your own citizens end up being the ones living in tents.

Did your cousin marry my stepdaughter? Lovely, but definitely batshit crazy lass..

[kalibengal]

(03-04-2023, 10:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It's all been said at this point, I guess.  Biden is old and unpopular, Trump is old and unpopular and is going to run for a 3rd time in a row and if he loses he's probably going to run in 2028, too.

After the mid-terms was when it seems like this place fizzled out, possibly due to our conservative-leaning members tapping out a bit after a 3rd disappointing election cycle in a row.  We're left with left-leaning posters who are pessimistic about the democrats and fatalistic about the republicans.

Every day Biden is old and mostly uninspiring.  Every day Trump lies about something insane or proposes something nuts.  Every day DeSantis turns Florida into a bizarre authoritarian paradise.  Every day there is a mass shooting no one even bothers to point out anymore. It's all various shades of crap, and most people don't want to deal with crap unless they're being paid for it.  Truthfully, the fact that I posted so much about politics on a football message board is probably going to rank pretty high on my deathbed regrets list.

So it goes.

thx for posting this, I have nothing else to add.