The long Western legacy of violence against Asian Americans

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

I hope this kind of thing is going to be treated with the seriousness it deserves.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-25-2021, 11:12 AM)Dill Wrote: I guess I need a little help here.

Hopefully I can provide it.  

Quote:If 7% commit 51% of the murders, and Blacks are not inherently violent, 

I certainly don't believe that they are.

Quote:then what are the "differing circumstances" that account for the difference here? 

Oh wow, that's a question that would require far more than even your archetypal response.  Suffice to say they are many and varied. 

Quote:How are those circumstances separated from the legacy of white supremacy? 

Some of them are not, many, if not most of them are.  In fact we have a very easy way to empirically prove that "white supremacy" or it's "legacy" is not the main driving factor.  We can do so by looking for similar patterns in other minority communities.  Americans of Hispanic descent commit these crimes at or just slightly above their percentage of the population.  Asians are very much underrepresented.

Now, I can already hear you saying that those communities, while certainly marginalized to varying degrees by this country, did not experience the same level of animus and discrimination that Black people do/did.  This would be a fair, and perfectly true, point.  To counter it we need only look at the one ethnic minority treated even more poorly in our country's history than Black people, Native Americans.  They are slightly over represented in these categories, but nothing close to on the same scale. (Anyone looking for raw data on this need only check my link in the post above.

Consequently, we can conclude rather comfortably, that while white supremacy, or it's "legacy" is absolutely a contributing factor, it can in no way be used to explain the enormous discrepancy in the commissions of violent crime within the black community.  It's absolutely a factor, but the raw data just doesn't lend itself to it being the major contributor, at all.

So then, please allow me to point the mic in the other direction and ask the same of you.  Why do you think there is this enormous statistical discrepancy?

[Dill]

(03-25-2021, 11:13 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I hope this kind of thing is going to be treated with the seriousness it deserves.

Is this a "hate crime" or just a robbery? 

I can't see the perps faces.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-25-2021, 03:03 PM)Dill Wrote: Is this a "hate crime" or just a robbery? 

I can't see the perps faces.

That's an excellent question.  The media seems to think so.  What do you think?

[Dill]

(03-25-2021, 03:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That's an excellent question.  The media seems to think so.  What do you think?

Can't tell. What if the perps are Asian? 

Wait--HOODIES!  Nevermind. I've got it all figured out. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-25-2021, 03:35 PM)Dill Wrote: Can't tell. What if the perps are Asian?

What if they were white? 

Quote:Wait--HOODIES!  Nevermind. I've got it all figured out. 

Do you?  Please, clue the rest of us in.

[Dill]

(03-25-2021, 11:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Quote:How are those circumstances separated from the legacy of white supremacy? 

Some of them are not, many, if not most of them are.  In fact we have a very easy way to empirically prove that "white supremacy" or it's "legacy" is not the main driving factor.  We can do so by looking for similar patterns in other minority communities.  Americans of Hispanic descent commit these crimes at or just slightly above their percentage of the population.  Asians are very much underrepresented.

Now, I can already hear you saying that those communities, while certainly marginalized to varying degrees by this country, did not experience the same level of animus and discrimination that Black people do/did.  This would be a fair, and perfectly true, point.  To counter it we need only look at the one ethnic minority treated even more poorly in our country's history than Black people, Native Americans.  They are slightly over represented in these categories, but nothing close to on the same scale. (Anyone looking for raw data on this need only check my link in the post above.

This comparison of minorities treats oppression as a quantity, with little regard for quantitative differences.
You've singled out Native Americans. It is true that, in historical terms, they were treated very badly. Entire tribes were wiped out to the last member, their lands taken.  Few remain today. 

But in the East, the survivors were assimilated more readily and completely than Blacks, as a rule. This is certainly true in the post WWII era. In the West, where many held on to their language culture, and a parcel of land, the story is rather different. On reservations in Montana, for example, the homicide rate among Native Americans is not very different from that of Blacks.  Alaskan Native Americans and Eskimos are subject to high rates of inter- not intraracial attacks. In some reservation counties in the West. violent crimes are 20 times higher than the national average. NA women experience a higher rate of "disappearance" than any other ethnic group. 
https://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/mmiw/native-american-homicide-rates-are-soaring-but-causes-aren-t-clear-due-to-inconsistent-data/article_cd39d5e5-0bae-5f6d-9da5-994e3e8bdbd6.html
Suicide rates for NA men are also, I believe, the highest of any ethnic group. https://sprc.org/scope/racial-ethnic-disparities. Blacks, interestingly, have the lowest suicide rate.

So far as I can tell, the "raw data" you posted show numbers arrested and for what crimes, and then a percent distribution. They do not indicate the total populations for each demographic, from which the number of offenders is drawn. But what they do show is disturbing for NAs, especially in the under 18 group, where the murders per capita would be much nearer that for Blacks than whites. 

The relation of Western Tribal groups, from Apache to Cheyenne to Eskimo, to the dominant white culture/government is qualitatively different from that of virtually all other minorities coming to the U.S., in large part because of their "pre-civilized" status as the dominant white culture encountered them.  We speak loosely of "Black culture" in the U.S., but a 17 year old Crow or Cheyenne growing up on his MT reservation is REALLY growing up in a different culture. S/He must learn English as a second language, learn an entirely different set of laws and customs--and abide by them.  Tribes are benevolently allowed to keep their disempowered customs, where they don't conflict with U.S. law. They cannot set legal/political terms on equality the white man's government. Assimilation is difficult. Depression and hopelessness dominate. Living on the Crow Reservation is where I got my first clue about white supremacy. In every conflict, my culture cancels theirs.

Hence the differences in NA crime statistics from other minority populations. With no group do state or federal authorities or academics have so much trouble just getting accurate statistics. The situation is similar on the steppes of Siberia or deserts of Namibia--where ever tribal peoples become subject to "civilized" powers. Cultural disintegration follows with its unique attendant stresses.  But so far as I know, though, crime statistics for Native Americans living on tribal lands east of the Mississippi don't very much from those of whites in their states. 

Chinese, in contrast, came from a civilization, with writing, banking, bookkeeping, complex social hierarchies. Same with Japanese and Vietnamese. For military purposes, Japanese were declared "white" in 1942 to solve segregation issues at training sites in the South. That tells you where they have ranked vis a vis blacks in white racial imaginary.

Black Americans have an "advantage" over those Western NAs in that, if their ancestors were slaves, they were forcibly assimilated hundreds of years ago--forced to forget their language and adopt the white man's. The cultural gap is not nearly so great.  But Blacks, unlike Asians, are still considered more racially "different"--especially in visual and aesthetic terms.  And over hundreds of years, not only laws, but norms of exclusion were constructed specifically around Blacks to a greater degree than any other minority.  Other minorities, like poor whites, assimilated in part by distinguishing themselves from Blacks--the bottom rung of the racial ladder. 

(03-25-2021, 11:24 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Consequently, we can conclude rather comfortably, that while white supremacy, or it's "legacy" is absolutely a contributing factor, it can in no way be used to explain the enormous discrepancy in the commissions of violent crime within the black community.  It's absolutely a factor, but the raw data just doesn't lend itself to it being the major contributor, at all.

So then, please allow me to point the mic in the other direction and ask the same of you.  Why do you think there is this enormous statistical discrepancy?

I confess it is still not clear to me how we can "comfortably" conclude that while white supremacy may be a "contributing factor," it cannot explain the "enormous discrepancy in the commissions of violent crime" etc.  

First, I don't see a substantial statistical difference between violent crime amongst NAs living in the West and Black Americans. Your own data does not bear that out. Add to that the scandalous problem of reporting crimes involving Native Americans, especially homicides. They are not an example of a heavily oppressed minority whose oppression has resulted only in some minor statistical deviation from the white norm. And I don't see how the massive problems in NA communities cannot be uncoupled from white supremacy. So I cannot grant you the leverage of that benchmark.

Second, if high rates of black crime can be linked to 1) places where Blacks as a group were segregated in cities by law and real estate/banking practices, and 2) generations were denied equality of opportunity, turning people to criminal activities in greater numbers than in populations and places with those opportunities, that would seem to explain higher rates of criminality. That would explain why poor Blacks might be statistically more likely to turn to crime than poor whites or Asians. Such places would also be more susceptible to "force multipliers" like gangs and drugs, which drive crime rates even higher, and may set norms of behavior and values for neighborhood children which are difficult to unlearn.

So far, I still haven't read anything beyond 1 and 2 to effectively explain the higher levels of criminality you reference. I don't see some other cause out there, either. If I wanted to reduce that discrepancy in criminality which you cite, I see no way of doing that without addressing 1 and 2--which are most definitely a legacy of white supremacy.

[hollodero]

(03-24-2021, 01:02 PM)Dill Wrote: Just a quick note here: "issues with females" is an incredibly broad category.

As is hate. I know that, but my issue is that these are the only categories one could attribute to Atlanta with any certainty.
Many other things were just a jump to conclusions, based on the attacker being a white male. Again, not trying to paint a reverse racism picture, but this just strikes me as inconsistent. We're not supposed to jump to these conclusions.

I do not deny the actual relevance of stereotypes about Christian upbringing or any of the specifics you provided to underline said relevance. It's really this "this is a racist deed, there can be no second opinion, and whoever does not join the chorus denies the problem, probably as a form of racism as well." Dino was not exactly doing that probably, but many many people did.

Imho this is an example of wide parts of the left having their takes and their views, applying them at every occasion and being pretty absolutistic about them. I'm not accusing you of that.

(03-24-2021, 01:02 PM)Dill Wrote: I forgive your attack on this non-European from a Muslim country, if that is any consolation. Tell your social media friends that you know an American familiar with Critical Race Theory who says it's ok.  (Don't give them my name, though.) 

I quit social media :) Not because of that incident, but because it made me anxious. So I can't tell them anything, which is good for me really.
But yeah, there is a huge movement primed to blame everything on whites and males and declare them the underlying cause for everything that goes wrong. While every "mrginalized" group (muslims, immigrants, women,...) is excused. And it has not so much to do with a precise analysis as it has to do with falling back on the same issues and cool talking points at every occasion.

(03-25-2021, 10:46 AM)Dill Wrote: The Trump phenomenon is certainly a reaction to "disingenuous PC points" and the like.  But one already has to be primed with a certain rightist world view before that sends one to the polls to vote, uncritically, for a grifter who speaks out against the "enemies" of this
country, especially those within. The guy who is not afraid to say the quiet part out loud. 

Many things led to Trump, I could never know about all of them or address all of them. FOX and the nature of the pendulum probably being one of the bigger factors. But I also think that many politically more middling people, or those with no clear political ideology, were just turned off by some of the more disingenuous talking points, a certain overemphasis on the male whitie being inherently oppressive and racist (or at least bound to be accompanied with a constant stream of bad conscience about privileges and such) being among them.

This is not me defending any of the heineous FOX talking points. But as I once said, declaring economic issues racial issues all the time is one of the things that imho do not really help.

(03-25-2021, 10:46 AM)Dill Wrote: James Kirchik has written a book called The End of Europe (2017) in which he argues that unless the center liberal parties of Central and Western Europe wake up and recognize the bolded, they risk delivering their countries over to Orban-style "illiberal democracy." They have to recognize and respect a saturation point. Or else, as you say, there is consternation.
The question is, though, where is that point? For the "racist" the bar will be considerably lower than for wokeratti.

I don't think that point is reached yet. It is complicated though, and not really applyable to the US immigration experience. I will say this though, most people coming to the US are in awe of the US. That is not true for many people coming here, and that certainly is an issue. That we take in many people that would be better served going to some Arabic countries where sharia is the law of the land and there are no infidels and they do not have to talk to females or have their son taught by a female teacher. The value discrepancy is a problem, not the number of people. But sure, theoretically, at some point the number of people is an issue as well. As it is in some parts of Germany and elsewhere and actually, even indeed in Sweden.

But according to many, even contemplating any of that is already worthy of condemnation. And I did get condemned a lot for saying stuff like this. Islamophobia, falling for right-wing rhetoric, all kinds of unpleasant reactions.

(03-25-2021, 10:46 AM)Dill Wrote:   I'm guessing that in the final bolded above you were maybe describing your own country, which has turned back to Kurz it seems--a guy who listens when people say they don't feel at home in their own country anymore. Yes, like the U.S.  But maybe fewer complaints about secularization? 

This is too complex to address at length. In short, we do have a center-right majority, which would not be called center-right in America; but there's an electorate swinging from conservative to right-wing populist and back. We don't throw them into one party like you do.
Our boy wonder mainly got elected for rhetorics about closing refugee routes and whatnot, fishing from the populism front.
- Us feeling threatened by foreigners has a long tradition that is to a large extent rooted in being a small and identity-void country to begin with.

[hollodero]

(03-25-2021, 10:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: They are no tougher than right-leaning folk.

If you disagree I can give you a thousand examples.

I don't disagree and can think of many examples myself.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/asian-american-woman-assaulted-nypd-seeks-suspect_n_6062fb89c5b67ad387231073

According to the byline "A man repeatedly kicked a 65-year-old woman in front of witnesses who seemingly stood by." Thankfully there's a picture as well, so we don't have to be on the lookout for all men, because they never get more descriptive. These attacks need to stop.

[GMDino]

So just to interrupt the series of posts just proving that bad people within western culture can include people other than whites (yay for them), I thought I 'd share this post from my friend.

He and I worked together way back in my radio days.

This is how you respond to an attack.  You don't try and show that OTHER people are bad too.  You condemn the act and look for people to act better.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-31-2021, 03:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: So just to interrupt the series of posts just proving that bad people within western culture can include people other than whites (yay for them), I thought I 'd share this post from my friend.

He and I worked together way back in my radio days.

This is how you respond to an attack.  You don't try and show that OTHER people are bad too.  You condemn the act and look for people to act better.

Who didn't condemn these attacks?  Also, are you suggesting that by only posting news items in which the offender is a certain ethnicity that a perception that only those people are committing these attacks could be formed?  I always enjoy your sanctimony though, you must go to bed every night congratulating yourself on what a great person you are.

[GMDino]

Biden also choose not to ignore the problem.  Good to see leadership.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/30/982736783/biden-announces-new-steps-to-tackle-anti-asian-violence-and-discrimination

Quote:The White House on Tuesday announced a half-dozen new actions in response to attacks and harassment that Asian American and Pacific Islander communities in the United States have faced increasingly over the past year.


"Across our nation, an outpouring of grief and outrage continues at the horrific violence and xenophobia perpetrated against Asian American communities, especially Asian American women and girls," the White House said in a statement.
"As President Biden said during his first prime time address, anti-Asian violence and xenophobia is wrong, it's un-American, and it must stop."

NATIONAL
Attack On Asian Woman In Manhattan, As Bystanders Watched, To Be Probed As Hate Crime


The White House said Biden will appoint a permanent director to lead coordination of policies across the federal government — a request made by many community advocates.


Included in Tuesday's announcement, which builds on January's Memorandum Condemning and Combating Racism, Xenophobia, and Intolerance Against Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders in the United States, are directives to:

• Reestablish the White House Initiative on Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, with an initial emphasis on ending anti-Asian bias and violence
• Increase funding for AAPI survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault
• Establish a taskforce to address coronavirus-fueled xenophobia against Asian Americans
• Establish a cross-agency Justice Department initiative to investigate anti-Asian violence. This includes expanding the number of languages available for translation on the agency's hate crime website and training state and local law enforcement officials on how to report hate crimes
• Launch federal projects to celebrate contributions of Asian Americans to the country
• And fund National Science Foundation research on discrimination and xenophobia
  

POLITICS
Rep. Andy Kim On State Department Racism: 'My Own Government Questioned My Loyalty'


"Racism is never far below the surface in America, which is all too evident as the AAPI community has experienced escalating attacks and targeted violence during the pandemic," Sen. Mazie Hirono, D-Hawaii, wrote on Twitter in response to the news.
"We must confront the systems that allowed this hatred to fester and spread—exactly what @POTUS is doing."


Hirono, who is of Japanese descent, recently joined Democratic Senate colleague Tammy Duckworth of Illinois in calling on Biden to appoint more Asian Americans to his Cabinet. The two had previously threatened to vote no on any non-diverse nominee that came to the Senate, but last week changed their position based on Biden's pledge to add a senior liaison to the community in exchange for their votes.

CODE SWITCH
How To Start Conversations About Anti-Asian Racism With Your Family

SHORT WAVE
Short Wave Podcast: The U.S. Has A History Of Linking Disease With Race And Ethnicity


During Tuesday's White House press briefing, a reporter noted that the fact sheet for the new directives does not address the demand for more representation at the leadership level. Press secretary Jen Psaki reiterated that the administration has committed to naming a "high-level ... member of the AAPI community to a position in the White House, and that's something we're working to do through consultation with a range of officials and elected officials as well, and that person will be a commissioned officer and will be working on both policy and outreach."

She said they did not have a name for that role yet.


Psaki added: "In the coming weeks the administration will meet with AAPI leaders to hear their input on how we can play the most constructive role possible in the community."

[GMDino]

Jumpin Jebus on a pogo stick.

https://www.wpxi.com/news/trending/surveillance-video-shows-brutal-attack-asian-american-woman-65-nyc/X3323MSYPBFEZJMUD2YVDATWVA/?fbclid=IwAR31KWSPatlk2sWVVAXcKNUCsSp1nVc-2BgJk9Kbm-z086QwiYSqzRxAvHk

Quote:March 31, 2021 at 9:57 am EDT
By Kelli Dugan and Michelle Ewing, Cox Media Group National Content Desk


NEW YORK — An elderly Asian American woman endured a brutal daylight attack on Monday in front of a New York City apartment building, whose staff appeared to watch the assault without rendering aid.


Here are the latest updates:
Update 9:57 a.m. ET March 31: The New York Police Department identified the suspect arrested early Wednesday in connection to the attack as 38-year-old Brandon Elliot, The New York Times reported.


Elliot is on lifetime parole following his 2019 release from prison after he was convicted of fatally stabbing his mother in 2002, multiple media outlets reported.

Elliot, who was living at a hotel that serves as a homeless shelter a few blocks from the scene of the attack, is facing multiple charges, including felony assault as a hate crime, The Associated Press reported.


Police also identified the victim in Monday’s attack as 65-year-old Vilma Kari, whose daughter said she immigrated to the United States from the Philippines decades ago, the Times reported.


According to the AP, Kari was walking to church in midtown Manhattan when police said a man kicked her in the stomach, knocked her to the ground, stomped on her face, shouted anti-Asian slurs and told her, “you don’t belong here” before casually walking away.


A man who opened the door at her apartment Tuesday told the Times that Kari was still hospitalized, recovering from a fractured pelvis.


A hospital spokesperson later confirmed to the AP that Kari was discharged Tuesday.


Philippine Ambassador to the U.S. Jose Manuel Romualdez said the victim is Filipino American.


The country’s foreign secretary, Teodoro Locsin Jr., condemned the attack in a Twitter post, saying “This is gravely noted and will influence Philippine foreign policy.”


In a memo released to Justice Department employees on Tuesday, U.S. Attorney General Merrick Garland said that the department would make hate crime prosecutions a priority and would provide additional help to local law enforcement agencies in their efforts to investigate bias crimes, the Times reported.


Update 2:34 a.m. EDT March 31: The New York Police Department’s Hate Crime Task Force has arrested a suspect in connection with an attack on a 65-year-old Asian American woman, authorities said early Wednesday.


“Thanks to assistance from the public and excellent investigative work by @NYPDHateCrimes detectives, the individual wanted for Monday’s assault of a 65-year-old Asian female, at 360 W. 43rd St., was arrested and charged with felony assault as a hate crime,” the department tweeted overnight.

No further information was immediately available.

[Dill]

(03-31-2021, 04:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: Biden also choose not to ignore the problem.  Good to see leadership.

https://www.npr.org/2021/03/30/982736783/biden-announces-new-steps-to-tackle-anti-asian-violence-and-discrimination

looks like the security guards who watched and then shut the door have been suspended too.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9417083/Asian-woman-65-suffers-fractured-pelvis-brutally-beaten-broad-daylight-Midtown.html

[fredtoast]

(03-31-2021, 04:25 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  Also, are you suggesting that by only posting news items in which the offender is a certain ethnicity that a perception that only those people are committing these attacks could be formed?

I am totally confused now.

First you were whining because you claimed the media only showed white people attacking Asians.

Now you just posted multiple examples of the media showing black people attacking Asians.

So who exactly are you claiming the media is portraying as carrying out all these attacks.  because I really have no idea what you are talking about.  I have seen multiple media stories where the attackers have been both white and black

[fredtoast]

(03-30-2021, 05:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  Thankfully there's a picture as well, so we don't have to be on the lookout for all men, because they never get more descriptive.

So the media is trying to blame white people by showing pictures of black people who attack Asians?


I can't follow your logic anymore.

[GMDino]

(04-01-2021, 05:58 PM)Dill Wrote: looks like the security guards who watched and then shut the door have been suspended too.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9417083/Asian-woman-65-suffers-fractured-pelvis-brutally-beaten-broad-daylight-Midtown.html

Good.  

[GMDino]

(04-01-2021, 06:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am totally confused now.

First you were whining because you claimed the media only showed white people attacking Asians.

Now you just posted multiple examples of the media showing black people attacking Asians.

So who exactly are you claiming the media is portraying as carrying out all these attacks.  because I really have no idea what you are talking about.  I have seen multiple media stories where the attackers have been both white and black

(04-01-2021, 06:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So the media is trying to blame white people by showing pictures of black people who attack Asians?


I can't follow your logic anymore.

For *some* reason a couple people took offense at "western culture" and though white people were being maligned.  Choosing to focus on the few examples in the article than the overall story of attacks on Asians.  And that's fine.  If they think the article itself was slanted toward white people then whatever.  I'm a white guy and was more than able to read it and not care about the ethnicity of the attackers or feel I was being attacked.  But I thought eventually discussion of the problem would happen.  I guess not.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-02-2021, 07:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: For *some* reason a couple people took offense at "western culture" and though white people were being maligned.  Choosing to focus on the few examples in the article than the overall story of attacks on Asians.  And that's fine.  If they think the article itself was slanted toward white people then whatever.  I'm a white guy and was more than able to read it and not care about the ethnicity of the attackers or feel I was being attacked.  But I thought eventually discussion of the problem would happen.  I guess not.

All we've been doing is discussing the problem.  You've offered nothing but articles, others have actually discussed the problem.  Part of that problem is confining the reason for these attacks to "white supremacy".  That ignores a huge chunk of these incidents, hence, not actually focusing on the problem.  You can't save someone who has been shot by just treating the entrance wound and ignoring the exit wound.  Your patient will die and you'll be scratching your head.

How about instead of virtue signaling what a proper "white person" you are you actually address what's being said?  I get that Fred isn't interested in a nuanced discussion on anything, but I thought you just might be capable.  Apparently not.