The sustainability of this defense...

[WeezyBengal]

I can't say I'm "worried" about this defense, but I think it's worth talking about.

This defense has been good, but they haven't been "good" in the traditional sense. A BIG part of why they are good is because of turnovers, and red zone turnovers at that.

They are currently in the bottom 5 of the league in pass and rush yards given up per game. They are also in the bottom 1/4 of the league in total yards given up per game. Statistically, they aren't as good as they were last year where they hovered right around league average in yards given up per game.

Now they are only giving up 20 points per game this year compared to 20 last year, so that is about the same. The big reason for giving up such a low number of points is because of those red zone turnovers, though.

I am just wondering how sustainable this "bend don't break" style of defense is going to be. IMO -a lot of those red zone turnovers are as much luck as they are "players making plays". I just hope we can tighten up our defense overall and not have to rely on turnovers to stop teams from scoring...because it will eventually catch up.

[Housh]

It’ll win a superbowl as long as the offense scores


Only thing wrong with Lou’s defense is when we aren’t playing with a lead its effectiveness goes down.

Otherwise it limits deep balls, and generates turnovers.


Imo if we do make a good run the team will lose because of the offense and not the defense. Just like as soon as the offense turned it on we became a different team. The D can play as well as relatively expected and we’ll still be .500 if the offense sucks. But if we get elite offense and sub par D i think we could still win 10 games

[The D.O.Z.]

Agreed. And to me, it all stems from pass rush. Aside from Hendrickson, we have little to none. I haven't heard Ossai's name ONCE this year. I'm not exaggerating. Maybe I missed a splash play but even so, they've been few and far between. Murphy has been largely a disappointment but he's a rookie so I'll give him some slack. But guys like Hubbard and Ossai are going to have to step up their game. Also wouldn't mind Tufule getting more rotational reps on the interior, especially when they use those 5-man defensive fronts like they used against San Francisco.

[Nicomo Cosca]

It’s sustainable. They’ve got studs at every level. And Lou.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

It's kinda their MO though. Keep everything in front of you and clamp down when the field gets bunched up in the red zone.

[Joelist]

Earlier in the year the D had three big issues: Tackling, backside seal/contain and explosive plays. They seem to have mostly cleaned up the backside issues and the tackling has improved a little (but is still an issue). Explosive plays are the big remaining problem. We still keep losing receivers in the zones and it is frustrating because this is what they did not do in past years. I'm hoping that this is inexperience and they start to clean it up.

[casear2727]

(11-07-2023, 11:00 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I am just wondering how sustainable this "bend don't break" style of defense is going to be. IMO -a lot of those red zone turnovers are as much luck as they are "players making plays". I just hope we can tighten up our defense overall and not have to rely on turnovers to stop teams from scoring...because it will eventually catch up.

I dont understand. The defense has not changed it's "bend dont break" style from the last 2 years.  Is a Super Bowl and AFCCG not considered sustainable?  How many times does Lou have to say "yards dont matter"?

[leonardfan40]

It’s a lot more sustainable now that our offense isn’t complete trash. Less turnovers by the offense and more ball control by them will only help the D. Held the Bills to 18 and SF to 17. Im not worried.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-07-2023, 11:47 AM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: Agreed. And to me, it all stems from pass rush. Aside from Hendrickson, we have little to none. I haven't heard Ossai's name ONCE this year. I'm not exaggerating. Maybe I missed a splash play but even so, they've been few and far between. Murphy has been largely a disappointment but he's a rookie so I'll give him some slack. But guys like Hubbard and Ossai are going to have to step up their game. Also wouldn't mind Tufule getting more rotational reps on the interior, especially when they use those 5-man defensive fronts like they used against San Francisco.

He's been a huge dissapointment. 

Myles Murphy has been flashing more than him and he's actually stolen reps away from Ossai in recent weeks. 

[TigerStripes]

It's really difficult judging this defense statistically based on how poorly the offense played the first part of the season, particularly all the three and outs vs. CLE/TENN.  Add in the learning curve of replacing our safeties, and it's tough.  I do think our secondary communication will continue to improve with experience, which should lead to less big plays given up.  What's also somewhat misleading is the "garbage time" yardage they've given up in a few games (the SF game, in particular.)  

I like the direction they're headed, though, and the more experience this secondary gets playing together, the better this defense is going to look. Our DL pressure on the QB seems to be vastly improved, which has been a huge plus.  If our offense can continue sustaining drives, that helps as well. I love the overall direction of the team.  They've got work to do, but it's all in front of them, if they stay relatively healthy. 

[WeezyBengal]

(11-07-2023, 02:53 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I dont understand. The defense has not changed it's "bend dont break" style from the last 2 years.  Is a Super Bowl and AFCCG not considered sustainable?  How many times does Lou have to say "yards dont matter"?

This team has never relied on turnovers like they have this year. 

They have 15 this year and 24 all of last year. 

[WeezyBengal]

(11-07-2023, 03:19 PM)TigerStripes Wrote: It's really difficult judging this defense statistically based on how poorly the offense played the first part of the season, particularly all the three and outs vs. CLE/TENN.  Add in the learning curve of replacing our safeties, and it's tough.  I do think our secondary communication will continue to improve with experience, which should lead to less big plays given up.  What's also somewhat misleading is the "garbage time" yardage they've given up in a few games (the SF game, in particular.)  

I like the direction they're headed, though, and the more experience this secondary gets playing together, the better this defense is going to look. Our DL pressure on the QB seems to be vastly improved, which has been a huge plus.  If our offense can continue sustaining drives, that helps as well. I love the overall direction of the team.  They've got work to do, but it's all in front of them, if they stay relatively healthy. 

Really good point. 

[Joelist]

(11-07-2023, 03:19 PM)TigerStripes Wrote: It's really difficult judging this defense statistically based on how poorly the offense played the first part of the season, particularly all the three and outs vs. CLE/TENN.  Add in the learning curve of replacing our safeties, and it's tough.  I do think our secondary communication will continue to improve with experience, which should lead to less big plays given up.  What's also somewhat misleading is the "garbage time" yardage they've given up in a few games (the SF game, in particular.)  

I like the direction they're headed, though, and the more experience this secondary gets playing together, the better this defense is going to look. Our DL pressure on the QB seems to be vastly improved, which has been a huge plus.  If our offense can continue sustaining drives, that helps as well. I love the overall direction of the team.  They've got work to do, but it's all in front of them, if they stay relatively healthy. 

Yup, remember the SF game alone had 105 garbage time yards. 

[Yogo]

Maybe it's just that our D plays a lot better with a shorter field to manage.

[casear2727]

(11-07-2023, 03:21 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This team has never relied on turnovers like they have this year. 

They have 15 this year and 24 all of last year. 

"Relying on turnovers", seriously?  It is about limiting points.  

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(11-07-2023, 11:00 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I can't say I'm "worried" about this defense, but I think it's worth talking about.

This defense has been good, but they haven't been "good" in the traditional sense. A BIG part of why they are good is because of turnovers, and red zone turnovers at that.

They are currently in the bottom 5 of the league in pass and rush yards given up per game. They are also in the bottom 1/4 of the league in total yards given up per game. Statistically, they aren't as good as they were last year where they hovered right around league average in yards given up per game.

Now they are only giving up 20 points per game this year compared to 20 last year, so that is about the same. The big reason for giving up such a low number of points is because of those red zone turnovers, though.  

I am just wondering how sustainable this "bend don't break" style of defense is going to be. IMO -a lot of those red zone turnovers are as much luck as they are "players making plays". I just hope we can tighten up our defense overall and not have to rely on turnovers to stop teams from scoring...because it will eventually catch up.

They are giving up 20.3 ppg. 12th in the league. They are less than 1 ppg away from being 8th. All this despite the offense completely stinking for the first 4 games, and the second halves of the first 6. And starting a rookie CB with Chido working his way back, a first year starter at FS and Nick Scott at SS. 

While it is certainly true we lack a true shutdown CB1, and a legit #2 pass rusher, and have had some tackling issues. At the same time, Turner and Dax Hill have both been good. As has Battle in limited snaps. Chido is working his way back. Murphy is improving. And CTB might be getting close to CB1 status. He did a great job on DJ Metcalf and the Bills were scheming to get Diggs away from him (the TD was on Turner). 

Wilson leads all NFL linebackers in INT since he's been in the league. That seems sustainable. Pratt has been making big PO plays for years now..The punch last game. The pick vs SF. The Kelce strip. The pick vs the Raiders. I mean, that looks sustainable. Hendrickson is a sack/strip master. And we have Lou. 

We are not the '86 Bears or the Steel Curtain, but these guys are a good defense. Give us a legit #2 pass rusher to pair with Trey (especially inside, but Murphy might do), a real CB1 (healthier Chido/improving CTB/Turner) and better S play (Battle for Scott?) and I think we are there. 

[Soonerpeace]

(11-07-2023, 11:00 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I can't say I'm "worried" about this defense, but I think it's worth talking about.

This defense has been good, but they haven't been "good" in the traditional sense. A BIG part of why they are good is because of turnovers, and red zone turnovers at that.

They are currently in the bottom 5 of the league in pass and rush yards given up per game. They are also in the bottom 1/4 of the league in total yards given up per game. Statistically, they aren't as good as they were last year where they hovered right around league average in yards given up per game.

Now they are only giving up 20 points per game this year compared to 20 last year, so that is about the same. The big reason for giving up such a low number of points is because of those red zone turnovers, though.

I am just wondering how sustainable this "bend don't break" style of defense is going to be. IMO -a lot of those red zone turnovers are as much luck as they are "players making plays". I just hope we can tighten up our defense overall and not have to rely on turnovers to stop teams from scoring...because it will eventually catch up.

In the last 3 games versus SF,Bills, & Seattle we are 7th in points per play given up. Give me that all day every day. Yards don’t matter. We are also 3rd in scoring defense against scoring the last 3 games. Who in the hell has played 3 tougher teams? I get your concern but there’s a bigger picture.

[puddycat]

Without Reader the run defense is bad. We don't commit penalties. As a draft fanatic I'm having problems getting good player fits because the passive nature of the Bengals D emphasizes patience and offensive mistakes. We are built to play KC/Mia and are going to have problems against balanced ball-control offenses like Cleveland and Baltimore. The league knows that you don't want to get in a shootout with the Bengals. So we get low scoring, keep the ball in front of you, control the clock games. We will still a majority of those games, but the odd pick 6 or punt return can kill you.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-07-2023, 04:35 PM)casear2727 Wrote: "Relying on turnovers", seriously?  It is about limiting points.  

My point is that we are limiting points, but it's because of turnovers...especially red zone turnovers. Is that sustainable? To have teams continue to drive the ball down the field on us and count on red zone stops or turnovers to prevent them from scoring? 

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(11-07-2023, 03:36 PM)Joelist Wrote: Yup, remember the SF game alone had 105 garbage time yards. 

Does that count the 60 yards before half?