This is the moment when AJ McCarron becomes a star

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-29-2015, 03:45 AM)BigSeph Wrote: You mean when he passed for 50+ fewer yards, threw a pick, the team rushed for 200+ yards and the defense forced 4 turnovers?

You mean the game where Manning was driving the Broncos down the field with a chance to win at the end, and Dre Kirkpatrick returned an INT for a TD to seal it?

Yeah seems like apples to apples.

Not carrying water for McCarron because his fumble lost the game, but why do you think Dalton "beat" the Broncos defense any more than McCarron did tonight?

And why does anyone think Derek Carr "beat" the Broncos?  If the Bengals hold the Broncos to 12 points, they win tonight too.

LOL.....you can't blame the defense....you're new around here....ALL losses are the fault of the QB.....unless pimping for some other QB.  These are conversations that have been going on for years now.

I know you're an AJMC fanboy and all....but we're toast if we have to roll into the playoffs with him.  He just can't make the pre snap reads this offense is predicated on. That's no knock on him.....it's just a steep learning curve with very little time to learn it.  I've been pleased with his performance.....but some are overrating it severely.  He's a very nice backup that protects the football , and can make some plays.  That's what you need in a quality backup.

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-29-2015, 03:45 AM)BigSeph Wrote: You mean when he passed for 50+ fewer yards, threw a pick, the team rushed for 200+ yards and the defense forced 4 turnovers?

You mean the game where Manning was driving the Broncos down the field with a chance to win at the end, and Dre Kirkpatrick returned an INT for a TD to seal it?

Yeah seems like apples to apples.

Not carrying water for McCarron because his fumble lost the game, but why do you think Dalton "beat" the Broncos defense any more than McCarron did tonight?

And why does anyone think Derek Carr "beat" the Broncos?  If the Bengals hold the Broncos to 12 points, they win tonight too.

Because when the game was on the line in the second half, Derek Carr did enough to win.
10-21 for 127 yards and 2 TDs. He had NOTHING on the ground (1.2 YPC for 27 yards) and had very little help. He was the Raiders offense.

It'd be different if he had some run support. But he didn't. He had to beat that Broncos defense by himself. That's why I say he won

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-29-2015, 02:49 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: That one to Green in the end zone wasn't catchable. Green cut outside then had to cut back and run around the defender just to get close to it. McCarron overthrew it. Like he did multiple times before.

Green probably should have made a contested catch on that one earlier. But to be fair that was a GREAT play by Harris. Little more on that pass and Harris gets nowhere near close to the ball.

He stopped running early in the route. He keeps running, he catches the ball easily.

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-29-2015, 04:01 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He stopped running early in the route. He keeps running, he catches the ball easily.

It's also a poor read by McCarron. Sure, Green COULD have caught it. But no reason for Green to think it goes in that area. They're playing cover 2 so the safeties are right in the middle of the field. So Green obviously tries to go outside the numbers (as seen) but McCarron throws it inside. So it's also a bad read by McCarron, miscommunication, and Green believing that if it's even thrown to him that it's going to the corner.

[BigSeph]

(12-29-2015, 03:51 AM)Wyche Wrote: LOL.....you can't blame the defense....you're new around here....ALL losses are the fault of the QB.....unless pimping for some other QB.  These are conversations that have been going on for years now.

I know you're an AJMC fanboy and all....but we're toast if we have to roll into the playoffs with him.  He just can't make the pre snap reads this offense is predicated on. That's no knock on him.....it's just a steep learning curve with very little time to learn it.  I've been pleased with his performance.....but some are overrating it severely.  He's a very nice backup that protects the football , and can make some plays.  That's what you need in a quality backup.

Well do you give any credit to the defense for wins, like when they pick off Peyton Manning 4x and return the last one for a TD to seal the game?

Does the QB get dinged for a win where he passes for 150 yards and throws a pick-6 to start the game?

Let me know how to proceed around here.  :)

I thought AJ went where he needed to with the ball, I don't think the reads were an issue.  But it's obvious that he's been thrown into the proverbial fire and is having to learn quickly on the job.  The first sign of a QB adjusting to NFL play is the playclock.  Far too many plays where the clock was at 0 or 1 when the ball was snapped, something was taking too long to get everyone lined up and ready.  Never noticed consistent 0 or 1s with Dalton at QB.

Our opinions diverge when you label him a quality backup, I think he can be a very good NFL QB.  There's a lot to be optimistic about, and he certainly isn't putting up Schaub performances where he throws pick-6s and loses the game for the team.  The things he's lacking right now are things which come with playing time (and clipboard time).  It's grasp of the offense, command of the huddle, and ownership of the offense.  He can make all the throws.  He makes all the reads.  He protects the ball.  He has a lot going for him, most QBs don't come out of the gate looking like All-Pros.  The first few games for all the great ones looked very similar to McCarron's.  Very few QBs come in and light it up off the bat.  Cam Newton is the last guy I can remember who did it.  It took Bortles a year and a half to get comfortable and look what he's doing.

So we can disagree on our estimations for McCarron's future.  That's fine.

I want both AJ and Andy to succeed, I've never wished anything negative on Andy and unless McCarron rapidly improves or Hue adjusts to take the training wheels off, this team's best chance to win this year comes with a healthy Andy Dalton under center.

[drgonzo]

This is on the coordinators

[BigSeph]

(12-29-2015, 03:56 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Because when the game was on the line in the second half, Derek Carr did enough to win.
10-21 for 127 yards and 2 TDs. He had NOTHING on the ground (1.2 YPC for 27 yards) and had very little help. He was the Raiders offense.

It'd be different if he had some run support. But he didn't. He had to beat that Broncos defense by himself. That's why I say he won

Did you watch the game?

[BigSeph]

(12-29-2015, 04:09 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: It's also a poor read by McCarron. Sure, Green COULD have caught it. But no reason for Green to think it goes in that area. They're playing cover 2 so the safeties are right in the middle of the field. So Green obviously tries to go outside the numbers (as seen) but McCarron throws it inside. So it's also a bad read by McCarron, miscommunication, and Green believing that if it's even thrown to him that it's going to the corner.

Green missed it by a foot.

If he hauls down the field and looks up, that's a standup TD.

How is it a poor read to throw to the guy running past defenders?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-29-2015, 04:15 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Well do you give any credit to the defense for wins, like when they pick off Peyton Manning 4x and return the last one for a TD to seal the game?

Does the QB get dinged for a win where he passes for 150 yards and throws a pick-6 to start the game?

Let me know how to proceed around here.  :)

I thought AJ went where he needed to with the ball, I don't think the reads were an issue.  But it's obvious that he's been thrown into the proverbial fire and is having to learn quickly on the job.  The first sign of a QB adjusting to NFL play is the playclock.  Far too many plays where the clock was at 0 or 1 when the ball was snapped, something was taking too long to get everyone lined up and ready.  Never noticed consistent 0 or 1s with Dalton at QB.

Our opinions diverge when you label him a quality backup, I think he can be a very good NFL QB.  There's a lot to be optimistic about, and he certainly isn't putting up Schaub performances where he throws pick-6s and loses the game for the team.  The things he's lacking right now are things which come with playing time (and clipboard time).  It's grasp of the offense, command of the huddle, and ownership of the offense.  He can make all the throws.  He makes all the reads.  He protects the ball.  He has a lot going for him, most QBs don't come out of the gate looking like All-Pros.  The first few games for all the great ones looked very similar to McCarron's.  Very few QBs come in and light it up off the bat.  Cam Newton is the last guy I can remember who did it.  It took Bortles a year and a half to get comfortable and look what he's doing.

So we can disagree on our estimations for McCarron's future.  That's fine.

I want both AJ and Andy to succeed, I've never wished anything negative on Andy and unless McCarron rapidly improves or Hue adjusts to take the training wheels off, this team's best chance to win this year comes with a healthy Andy Dalton under center.

Yes.....I give the defense credit for such games.....as I said....these are conversations that go back to the old board.....just a little friendly ribbing that you joined in on....nothing more.

Of course he isn't Matt Schaub....and I've given him due credit for doing exactly as he should....given the circumstances he is in.  He may become more than a good backup....but right now that's what he is.  Time will tell if he'll be more.  

The point is....guys like AJMC and AD need time to develop.  It seems some want to afford AJ that luxury....while they crucified Dalton during his growing pains.  Not that you have said such....it just goes back a few years.

Actually.....Dalton took over a 4-12 team with no OTAs that was predicted to go 0-16 and went 9-7 and made the playoffs.  I think it's safe to say he made an immediate impact here.  People just don't want to give him any credit for any of that...and I enjoy calling that out.

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-29-2015, 04:22 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Green missed it by a foot.

If he hauls down the field and looks up, that's a standup TD.

How is it a poor read to throw to the guy running past defenders?

Look up. Cover 2 means go to the outside. McCarron went inside. Common football knowldge against that coverage with verticals is to go to the corner, not the middle of the field. Why do you think Green and to go around the defender to the other side of the field almost?

[BigSeph]

(12-29-2015, 04:28 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yes.....I give the defense credit for such games.....as I said....these are conversations that go back to the old board.....just a little friendly ribbing that you joined in on....nothing more.

Of course he isn't Matt Schaub....and I've given him due credit for doing exactly as he should....given the circumstances he is in.  He may become more than a good backup....but right now that's what he is.  Time will tell if he'll be more.  

The point is....guys like AJMC and AD need time to develop.  It seems some want to afford AJ that luxury....while they crucified Dalton during his growing pains.  Not that you have said such....it just goes back a few years.

Actually.....Dalton took over a 4-12 team with no OTAs that was predicted to go 0-16 and went 9-7 and made the playoffs.  I think it's safe to say he made an immediate impact here.  People just don't want to give him any credit for any of that...and I enjoy calling that out.

I think in an ideal world, McCarron would have had last year to get the shoulder right, this year to learn behind Andy, and next year's OTAs/minis to get a better grasp of the offense.

An Aaron Rodgers-type scenario where he spends his first 3 years learning a system under a stable coaching staff would have been even better.

But that's not the situation we find ourselves in.  

We'll see what McCarron is made of (if his wrist isn't really messed up) - it's usually the 4th game where a QB flies or fails.  Just so happens it will be against the Ravens or the 1st round of the playoffs.

But for purposes of this thread, no, tonight was not McCarron's moment.  He was solid, but he still needs more training.

[BigSeph]

(12-29-2015, 04:30 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Look up. Cover 2 means go to the outside. McCarron went inside. Common football knowldge against that coverage with verticals is to go to the corner, not the middle of the field. Why do you think Green and to go around the defender to the other side of the field almost?

Because he was getting an armbar from Harris for the first 20 yards off the line of scrimmage?

When the WR is even with the safety you throw deep middle because the safety in under man is angling to sideline on a vertical route and you "pass" him.  That leaves CB and S behind.  If you throw to the corner you give the safety his angle.

Why do you think the Broncos were playing Cover2 when your own screenshots show 2-deep man under to AJ's side of the field?  CBs don't trail WRs 20 yards downfield in Cover2 unless they are playing jam+sink, and on the other side of the field the CB is up toward the line with the WR 1 on 1 with that safety. They sure as heck don't trail the WR 40 yards downfield even on jam+sink.

[Brownshoe]

(12-29-2015, 04:44 AM)BigSeph Wrote: But for purposes of this thread, no, tonight was not McCarron's moment.  He was solid, but he still needs more training.

I don't think leading a "loaded" Bengals offense to only 90 yards and 3 points in the 2nd half, and then "almost" fumbling and then fumbling the first two plays in OT is solid. He had 2 good drives at the start of the game, and then played horribly.

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-29-2015, 04:51 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Because he was getting an armbar from Harris for the first 20 yards off the line of scrimmage?

When the WR is even with the safety you throw deep middle because the safety in under man is angling to sideline on a vertical route and you "pass" him.  That leaves CB and S behind.  If you throw to the corner you give the safety his angle.

Why do you think the Broncos were playing Cover2 when your own screenshots show 2-deep man under to AJ's side of the field?  CBs don't trail WRs 20 yards downfield in Cover2 unless they are playing jam+sink, and on the other side of the field the CB is up toward the line with the WR 1 on 1 with that safety.  They sure as heck don't trail the WR 40 yards downfield even on jam+sink.

He slowed up before the ball is even thrown.

And if you look at the picture, the safety has a better angle inside actually.

Right here:

So Green going to the corner actually puts him in a spot where only he can get the ball. McCarron misread it and threw it inside. It has a better chance to the corner.

[Stonyhands]

(12-29-2015, 04:51 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Because he was getting an armbar from Harris for the first 20 yards off the line of scrimmage?

When the WR is even with the safety you throw deep middle because the safety in under man is angling to sideline on a vertical route and you "pass" him.  That leaves CB and S behind.  If you throw to the corner you give the safety his angle.

Why do you think the Broncos were playing Cover2 when your own screenshots show 2-deep man under to AJ's side of the field?  CBs don't trail WRs 20 yards downfield in Cover2 unless they are playing jam+sink, and on the other side of the field the CB is up toward the line with the WR 1 on 1 with that safety.  They sure as heck don't trail the WR 40 yards downfield even on jam+sink.

Don't try and talk sense into him...this is the same guy who said its AJs fault we kept running into the defense and that AJ should have audibled.  Completely oblivious to the play clock all second half where AJ had to hurry the snap just so we didn't get penalized, let alone make any pre-snap reads.  Pretty sure when he did have time in the first half he audibled to the TD throw to Green.  

Had Green not given up or even located the ball that would have been a perfect pass by AJ.  Not to mention AJ had been throwing balls all game long to the sideline that were only catchable by us and he was throwing strikes over the middle.  Hue quit calling those and we struggled mightily.

[Stonyhands]

(12-29-2015, 05:19 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: He slowed up before the ball is even thrown.

And if you look at the picture, the safety has a better angle inside actually.

Right here:

So Green going to the corner actually puts him in a spot where only he can get the ball. McCarron misread it and threw it inside. It has a better chance to the corner.

Where was AJ in the pocket relative to this?  Was this a post pattern?  You can draw pretty pictures all you want but if the pattern calls for a post that's where AJs throwing it and that certainly looked like where Green was trying to run to until he stopped running and then started again.  

Why don't you get off AJs ass?  He was a missed FG away from beating a Denver team with the #1 defense in the NFL in their house with the playoffs on the line.  He actually played really damn well and ran the plays given to him.

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-29-2015, 06:10 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Don't try and talk sense into him...this is the same guy who said its AJs fault we kept running into the defense and that AJ should have audibled.  Completely oblivious to the play clock all second half where AJ had to hurry the snap just so we didn't get penalized, let alone make any pre-snap reads.  Pretty sure when he did have time in the first half he audibled to the TD throw to Green.  

Had Green not given up or even located the ball that would have been a perfect pass by AJ.  Not to mention AJ had been throwing balls all game long to the sideline that were only catchable by us and he was throwing strikes over the middle.  Hue quit calling those and we struggled mightily.

Look up and tell me how the safety was level with Green when the ball left his hands? Green can't locate the ball because verticals during cover 2 means go to the back of the zone. Green even said he read it one way and McCarron threw it another way. Bad placement by McCarron. Any offensive coordinator will tell you that you go to the corner there, don't throw to the middle of the field in cover 2. But, again, McCarron can't read zone coverage.

And when did they almost get penalized? When Sanu was in at QB? They were at the line of scrimmage numerous times but waited til the last second.

McCarron saw one on one with Green and threw it to him. Awesome. Good play.

McCarron really didn't throw many 'strikes' in the middle. He threw two to Sanu. That was his middle. Everything else were out routes.

He missed Marvin Jones on a deep pass. AJ Green on a deep pass.

We didn't quit calling those plays. McCarron just didn't know where to go with the ball in zone coverage. Like in college. Go route was his favorite play in college because of how many times it turned out man to man.

What was McCarron's best play to you? Seriously. I can say that his completion to Sanu for 20 yards on that 3rd and long was his best. But everything else was sub-par and what you expect out of a backup.

[Stonyhands]

(12-29-2015, 04:15 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Well do you give any credit to the defense for wins, like when they pick off Peyton Manning 4x and return the last one for a TD to seal the game?

Does the QB get dinged for a win where he passes for 150 yards and throws a pick-6 to start the game?

Let me know how to proceed around here.  :)

I thought AJ went where he needed to with the ball, I don't think the reads were an issue.  But it's obvious that he's been thrown into the proverbial fire and is having to learn quickly on the job.  The first sign of a QB adjusting to NFL play is the playclock.  Far too many plays where the clock was at 0 or 1 when the ball was snapped, something was taking too long to get everyone lined up and ready.  Never noticed consistent 0 or 1s with Dalton at QB.

Our opinions diverge when you label him a quality backup, I think he can be a very good NFL QB.  There's a lot to be optimistic about, and he certainly isn't putting up Schaub performances where he throws pick-6s and loses the game for the team.  The things he's lacking right now are things which come with playing time (and clipboard time).  It's grasp of the offense, command of the huddle, and ownership of the offense.  He can make all the throws.  He makes all the reads.  He protects the ball.  He has a lot going for him, most QBs don't come out of the gate looking like All-Pros.  The first few games for all the great ones looked very similar to McCarron's.  Very few QBs come in and light it up off the bat.  Cam Newton is the last guy I can remember who did it.  It took Bortles a year and a half to get comfortable and look what he's doing.

So we can disagree on our estimations for McCarron's future.  That's fine.

I want both AJ and Andy to succeed, I've never wished anything negative on Andy and unless McCarron rapidly improves or Hue adjusts to take the training wheels off, this team's best chance to win this year comes with a healthy Andy Dalton under center.

I couldn't figure out why the issues with the play clock. It seemed like mass confusion coming out of the huddle. Then the throw to Gio on a third down after he was clearly trying to get off the field due to fatigue or injury. Hue did no favors in this game with his shitty slow play calling. My best guess was that having Hewitt leave the game early really messed up his game plan and he never fully recovered. Plays were very late getting in and substitutions were embarrassing to say the least.

Not to mention when you play good teams in prime time you have to score every chance and having an inconsistent kicker like Nugent really hurts.

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-29-2015, 06:14 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Where was AJ in the pocket relative to this?  Was this a post pattern?  You can draw pretty pictures all you want but if the pattern calls for a post that's where AJs throwing it and that certainly looked like where Green was trying to run to until he stopped running and then started again.  

Why don't you get off AJs ass?  He was a missed FG away from beating a Denver team with the #1 defense in the NFL in their house with the playoffs on the line.  He actually played really damn well and ran the plays given to him.

From Coley Harvey "AJ Green basically misread safety. Saw something early in route that caused that. He said he shouldn't have stopped. "

So when you have Green, someone who has seen cover 2's, going one way, and someone who hasn't seen NFL cover 2 much throwing another way, things like this are bound to happen. Miscommunication.

Not really a missed FG away. The Broncos were at the Bengals 38 with over a minute to go and 2 timeouts. It only would have been a 20-17 game at that point.

He did well in the beginning. I agree completely with that. But he struggled in the 2nd half. It's not how you start games, it's how you finish them.

And that playoffs weren't on the line. A bye week was. This was like a playoff game. There are no qualifiers. You win or lose. Period.

[Stonyhands]

(12-29-2015, 06:18 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Look up and tell me how the safety was level with Green when the ball left his hands? Green can't locate the ball because verticals during cover 2 means go to the back of the zone. Green even said he read it one way and McCarron threw it another way. Bad placement by McCarron. Any offensive coordinator will tell you that you go to the corner there, don't throw to the middle of the field in cover 2. But, again, McCarron can't read zone coverage.

And when did they almost get penalized? When Sanu was in at QB? They were at the line of scrimmage numerous times but waited til the last second.

McCarron saw one on one with Green and threw it to him. Awesome. Good play.

McCarron really didn't throw many 'strikes' in the middle. He threw two to Sanu. That was his middle. Everything else were out routes.

He missed Marvin Jones on a deep pass. AJ Green on a deep pass.

We didn't quit calling those plays. McCarron just didn't know where to go with the ball in zone coverage. Like in college. Go route was his favorite play in college because of how many times it turned out man to man.

What was McCarron's best play to you? Seriously. I can say that his completion to Sanu for 20 yards on that 3rd and long was his best. But everything else was sub-par and what you expect out of a backup.

What game were you watching? Even the announcers mentioned us barely getting the snap off every single play.

AJ threw a strike to Gio over the middle as well.

Green gave up running the pass before he saw it in the air. Why was Green running in that direction and then stopped? This wasn't the classic Green ran left AJ threw right. Green stopped. He thought he was covered. All of McCarrons targets are on the right side of the field. What the Hell sense would it make for Hue to draw up a play having Green run a post corner and having AJ throw across his body to the far left when he's scanning targets to the right.

I can assure you that was a post pattern that AJ gave up on and later tried to save his Ass because he knows he should have had that.

Plus you criticize AJs throwing down the field when he's clearly got a better touch on the long ball than does 5 year veteran Andy who 9/10 throws the ball out of bounds.

Yes let's pick on a guy in his 2nd NFL start who was a missed FG away from beating the number 1 defense in the NFL on Monday night in their house with them playing to make the playoffs.