Thoughts on Dre K ?

[fredtoast]

(03-17-2016, 03:31 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Talib is a really good CB. With Dre Kirk it is the totality of it. I'll buy a PFF membership so we can hash out the stats and get down to it.

FootballOutsiders used to do the same thing.

[wolfkaosaun]

(03-17-2016, 03:31 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Talib is a really good CB. With Dre Kirk it is the totality of it. I'll buy a PFF membership so we can hash out the stats and get down to it.

At the end of the season, Kirkpatrick was ranked the 110th CB according to PFF. He ranked 2nd in the NFL with 105 passes his way. Among cornerbacks with at least 275 snaps, Dre Kirkpatrick is the 116th highest-graded player, only ahead of Antwon Blake (PIT) and Brandon Browner (NO).

Talib was ranked the 33rd best CB according to PFF.

Also, going off of PFF, the Bengals are one of two teams that have 4 secondary players than have above an 80 PFF ranking. The other team was the Patriots.

[fredtoast]

(03-17-2016, 04:30 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: At the end of the season, Kirkpatrick was ranked the 110th CB according to PFF. He ranked 2nd in the NFL with 105 passes his way. Among cornerbacks with at least 275 snaps, Dre Kirkpatrick is the 116th highest-graded player, only ahead of Antwon Blake (PIT) and Brandon Browner (NO).

Talib was ranked the 33rd best CB according to PFF.

Also, going off of PFF, the Bengals are one of two teams that have 4 secondary players than have above an 80 PFF ranking. The other team was the Patriots.

I don't care about the rankings.  Those are pretty sketchy.  What I want to see is raw individual data like "passer rating allowed", "yards per attempt allowed", "completion percentage allowed", and stuff like that.

[wolfkaosaun]

(03-17-2016, 04:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't care about the rankings.  Those are pretty sketchy.  What I want to see is raw individual data like "passer rating allowed", "yards per attempt allowed", "completion percentage allowed", and stuff like that.

Trying to find those now. Because PFF rankings have been sketchy this past year.

[CageTheBengal]

Why has Kirkpatrick faced scrutiny on a consistent basis since joining the team compared to Dennard? The stories are almost identical. Little playing time, hidden behind talented depth chart and injuries.

Kirk actually did more for us sooner then Dennard has. In his second season he had 3 INTs in key moments to close out the season. The bias against him has been outrageous for years.

[jfkbengals]

(03-20-2016, 01:19 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Why has Kirkpatrick faced scrutiny on a consistent basis since joining the team compared to Dennard? Going into Dennard's The stories are almost identical. Little playing time, hidden behind talented depth chart and injuries. Yet Dennard is looked at with a bright future going into his 3rd year compared to the perspective some had on Kirk going into his 3rd.

Kirk actually did more for us sooner then Dennard has. In his second season he had 3 INTs in key moments to close out the season. The bias against him has been outrageous for years.

That was 2014, his the end of his third season.  That is part of the problem that people have with him.  Three years to get onto the field.

[*Nately120*]

I have a decent feeling that we MIGHT know what we have in Dre sometime before he retires from the NFL.

[fredtoast]

(03-20-2016, 01:45 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: That was 2014, his the end of his third season.  That is part of the problem that people have with him.  Three years to get onto the field.

yes.  that is exactly the problem.  Some people decided they did not like him his first two seasons here and they can't move on to the present.

I remember how when Andre smith started playing well a lot of people here still insisted he was a fat lazy useless slob because that is what everyone was always saying on the message boards.  

[CageTheBengal]

(03-20-2016, 01:45 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: That was 2014, his the end of his third season.  That is part of the problem that people have with him.  Three years to get onto the field.

Dennard is in the same boat and hasn't been under the microscope at all.

[t3r3e3]

(03-20-2016, 01:45 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: That was 2014, his the end of his third season.  That is part of the problem that people have with him.  Three years to get onto the field.

Hard to see the field when Adam Jones, Terrence Newman, and pre-2nd Achilles Leon Hall are the starters.  Those guys played well, and didn't miss much time with injuries.  Zimmer was not going to bench those three.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(03-20-2016, 02:46 PM)I\m CageTheBengal Wrote: Dennard is in the same boat and hasn't been under the microscope at all.

The real difference between the two is that Kirkpatrick had his chance and hasn't looked very good. People still hold out hope that Dennard could waltz onto the scene and look like a good starter. If Dennard had started over Kirkpatrick and had been targeted the second most in the league while only beating a scrub from NO and PIT in pff ratings, then yeah, Dennard would be getting skewered right now. The real difference is that Dennard hasn't had a chance where Kirkpatrick has proven himself to be a below average starter.

[CageTheBengal]

(03-21-2016, 01:36 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: The real difference between the two is that Kirkpatrick had his chance and hasn't looked very good. People still hold out hope that Dennard could waltz onto the scene and look like a good starter. If Dennard had started over Kirkpatrick and had been targeted the second most in the league while only beating a scrub from NO and PIT in pff ratings, then yeah, Dennard would be getting skewered right now. The real difference is that Dennard hasn't had a chance where Kirkpatrick has proven himself to be a below average starter.

Imo the Kirkpatrick hate started before he even had significant playing time on the old forums. I remember people losing it over a pre-season game against Dallas.

[PDub80]

He.... is.... bad. Not just not good, but bad. B.A.D.

Dre K supporters, show something during his career that says he is good other than you as a Bengals fans just talking noises of unsubstantiated praise. "He starts on the Bengals" isn't going to cut it.

You know why there's evidence to support the opinion that he sucks - No INTs or splash plays in 2015, 3rd in the NFL in penalties called against and 3rd in penalty yards, 2014 PFF ranked him the 2nd worst CB in the NFL, 2015 he was, like, 7th worst. Etc. etc.? -  Because he, in fact, does suck. You can say the PFF numbers were off. Even if that were true... are they off THAT much that it would propel Dre K up somewhere other than "Garabge" ranking? Hell no.

His last INT was on 12/22/2014 - and he's been healthy. In 2015 he had 16 passes defensed.... and 13 penalties!!!! Do you realize he had only 3 positive net plays there? Sure, he stopped 16 possible completions, but he gave them 13 first downs from penalties to counter balance that! THAT ..... SUCKS.

There's nothing other than him being on the Bengals to support that he's any good. NOTHING. If there was anything other than unsubstantiated opinion from fans it would have been thrown out there in this thread or any of the numerous others.

And, before anyone jumps back onto the coaching staff's jock for the umpteenth time (Fred), they haven't always been right on their player evaluations, either. The list of guys picked to start who were worse than the player behind them is long enough to have negated that line of thinking for anyone but the most homering of the homers long ago.

[PDub80]

(03-20-2016, 11:38 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Hard to see the field when Adam Jones, Terrence Newman, and pre-2nd Achilles Leon Hall are the starters.  Those guys played well, and didn't miss much time with injuries.  Zimmer was not going to bench those three.

I don't hold him not starting against him. There were way better players in front of him for sure. But in watching him play he's awful so, yeah, I blame him for that.

[Garrus]

Dre started to play really good ball in the 2nd half of the season. He will have a career year in 2016

[fredtoast]

(03-21-2016, 11:11 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Dre K supporters, show something during his career that says he is good other than you as a Bengals fans just talking noises of unsubstantiated praise. "He starts on the Bengals" isn't going to cut it.

I have said it over and over and over and over again, but you just keep ignoring it.

Opposing QBs were not able to consistently drive down the field or score tds by targeting Dre.  If he was a really bad CB that is what would happen.

[fredtoast]

(03-21-2016, 11:11 AM)PDub80 Wrote:  2014 PFF ranked him the 2nd worst CB in the NFL, 2015 he was, like, 7th worst. Etc. etc.? -  Because he, in fact, does suck. You can say the PFF numbers were off. Even if that were true... are they off THAT much that it would propel Dre K up somewhere other than "Garabge" ranking? Hell no.

PFF has some good individual stats but thier ranking systemis a joke

There are 2 CBs on a team.  Starter "A" plays most of the time because he does not mess up as often as his back up "B".  A messes up once every 10 plays while B messes up once every 6 plays.  Player A plays 70 snaps and messes up 7 times.  In the same game player B plays 30 snaps and messes up 5 times.  You know which player PFF says is the best CB?  Player B who played fewer snaps and messed up more often.


PLus a CB who covers his receiver so well that the CB does not throw at him gets a "zero" for that play.

[fredtoast]

(03-21-2016, 11:11 AM)PDub80 Wrote: His last INT was on 12/22/2014 - and he's been healthy. In 2015 he had 16 passes defensed.... and 13 penalties!!!! Do you realize he had only 3 positive net plays there? Sure, he stopped 16 possible completions, but he gave them 13 first downs from penalties to counter balance that! THAT ..... SUCKS.

Penalties are a stupid way to judge CBs.  Dre only had one more penalty than Aqib Talib who is considered one of the better CBs in the league.  This is a classic case of cherry picking esoteric stats to support an opinion.

And his 16 PDs rank 11th in the league.  So i don't know how that is a negative.

[fredtoast]

(03-21-2016, 11:11 AM)PDub80 Wrote: And, before anyone jumps back onto the coaching staff's jock for the umpteenth time (Fred), they haven't always been right on their player evaluations, either. The list of guys picked to start who were worse than the player behind them is long enough to have negated that line of thinking for anyone but the most homering of the homers long ago.

1.  I can see how you can rip0n the coaching staff if the team fails.  But when we have a top 3 pass defense in back-to-back seasons it is kind of hard to claim the coaches are messing up.

2.  The list of players THAT FANS CLAIM WERE BETTER is, but in reality it is not that long at all.  Remember when the coaches were stupid for not making Bernard Scott the starting RB?  And Chase Coffman?  And Des Briscoe? And Jason Shirley? In fact in another thread right now you are saying that the team should trade Dalton and start McCarron, correct?

[PDub80]

(03-21-2016, 12:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  I can see how you can rip0n the coaching staff if the team fails.  But when we have a top 3 pass defense in back-to-back seasons it is kind of hard to claim the coaches are messing up.

2.  The list of players THAT FANS CLAIM WERE BETTER is, but in reality it is not that long at all.  Remember when the coaches were stupid for not making Bernard Scott the starting RB?  And Chase Coffman?  And Des Briscoe? And Jason Shirley? In fact in another thread right now you are saying that the team should trade Dalton and start McCarron, correct?

That's your thread you started, Fred.

I'm just helping troll it along so it doesn't die.