Thoughtson Biden's speech/plan?

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2021, 04:04 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I don't think you realize how the economy works or businesses work.

You don't make more money just for hiring people.  When you hire people, you have to pay them.  Hiring people doesn't automatically make you money.  

If your business is doing well, hiring more people makes your business work more efficient, but businesses hire more people as they're growing, so you can't tax the rich heavily and give them less money to hire people.

You are the one who does not understand how taxes work.

Higher taxes do not stop people from staring businesses or growing their business to make more money>  It is better to make money and pay taxes on that money than not to make any money at all.

Also "wages paid" by an employer are "tax deductions" so an employer never has to make a choice between "paying taxes" and "paying wages" because "paying wages" reduces the amount of taxes paid.

Taxes are not a "business expense" because a company can make billions of dollars but as long as they re-invest that money in the company they don't pay any taxes.  That would include hiring more people to grow their business.  the only time a business has to worry about taxes is when they take profit out of the business instead of re-invest.

[BFritz21]

(05-09-2021, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are the one who does not understand how taxes work.

Higher taxes do not stop people from staring businesses or growing their business to make more money>  It is better to make money and pay taxes on that money than not to make any money at all.

Also "wages paid" by an employer are "tax deductions" so an employer never has to make a choice between "paying taxes" and "paying wages" because "paying wages" reduces the amount of taxes paid.

Taxes are not a "business expense" because a company can make billions of dollars but as long as they re-invest that money in the company they don't pay any taxes.  That would include hiring more people to grow their business.  the only time a business has to worry about taxes is when they take profit out of the business instead of re-invest.

False.  You're the one who doesn't understand.

Not sure if you took any classes that covered taxes or employers paying taxes (I have associate degree in accounting), and I also took classes on business management, so I understand it all.

All income is taxed.

Even if employee wages are a write-off, employers are still making less if they're taxed more, meaning they'll just find ways to be more efficient and do things with less workers to off-set the taxes.  It seems like it would work, but individuals and companies aren't going to take the hit now just because it will hypothetically offset in the future, especially in the current times when people realize how quickly things can go bad, like they did with the Coronavirus.

[BigPapaKain]

(05-09-2021, 02:49 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Look at the places that have tried those things: Cuba, Venezuela, Sweden, and notice that they all fail.

Your list is comprehensive. It also ignores places that have enacted strong democratic socialist policies such as Norway, Finland, New Zealand, Denmark, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and Great Britain.

Whoops.

Follow up fun fact: all of those countries rank higher than the US on the happiness scale. Apparently when people aren't worried about basic needs, they tend to live more fulfilling lives. ***** wild.

[BFritz21]

(05-09-2021, 06:06 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Your list is comprehensive. It also ignores places that have enacted strong democratic socialist policies such as Norway, Finland, New Zealand, Denmark, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and Great Britain.

Whoops.

Follow up fun fact: all of those countries rank higher than the US on the happiness scale. Apparently when people aren't worried about basic needs, they tend to live more fulfilling lives. ***** wild.

Norway's not socialist:

Quote:In 2015, in fact, the Prime Minister of Denmark, in a lecture at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, addressed the issue directly.

Quote:I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.

Actually, none of the Nordic countries are socialist, and that includes Finland.

Canada's not socialist either:

Quote:So, the answer to ‘is Canada socialist’ is… not really! 

Japan's also not a socialist country:

Quote:Japan is a capitalist country with some socialism traits.

So, those countries may have aspects of socialism, like the US does with things like Medicare and minimum wage laws, but they're far from socialists countries.

Whoops.

[CKwi88]

Glad to see that both sides can agree that having these social programs in place does not make a country "socialist".

I'm sure this means that we can stop using the "z0mG socialism!!1!" Red herring and actually debate the merit of these social programs.

[*jason*]

(05-09-2021, 09:00 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Glad to see that both sides can agree that having these social programs in place does not make a country "socialist".

I'm sure this means that we can stop using the "z0mG socialism!!1!" Red herring and actually debate the mérito of these social programs.

That IS exactly what just happened... I'm not sure the argument will turn that way though.

[Dill]

(05-09-2021, 09:00 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: Glad to see that both sides can agree that having these social programs in place does not make a country "socialist".

I'm sure this means that we can stop using the "z0mG socialism!!1!" Red herring and actually debate the merit of these social programs.

I didn't hear BigP say Denmark etc. were socialist. 

He said they incorporated socialist policies, which a country can do without being socialist.

[BigPapaKain]

(05-09-2021, 08:25 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Norway's not socialist:


Actually, none of the Nordic countries are socialist, and that includes Finland.

Canada's not socialist either:

Japan's also not a socialist country:



So, those countries may have aspects of socialism, like the US does with things like Medicare and minimum wage laws, but they're far from socialists countries.

Whoops.

Crazy how I didn't say they were socialist. 

But I should've known you'd of read a third of the post and replied. Not sure why I even bothered.

[BFritz21]

(05-09-2021, 09:45 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Crazy how I didn't say they were socialist. 

But I should've known you'd of read a third of the post and replied. Not sure why I even bothered.

Then what the hell are you arguing?!

My point was that Biden is leading us towards socialism. None of those countries do anything as crazy as Biden wants to do so, again, what are you arguing?

[CKwi88]

(05-09-2021, 10:14 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Then what the hell are you arguing?!

My point was that Biden is leading us towards socialism. None of those countries do anything as crazy as Biden wants to do so, again, what are you arguing?

What is Biden proposing that those countries don't do?

[Vas Deferens]

It’s impossible to have fruitful conversations with the willfully ignorant.

[BigPapaKain]

(05-09-2021, 10:14 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Then what the hell are you arguing?!

My point was that Biden is leading us towards socialism. None of those countries do anything as crazy as Biden wants to do so, again, what are you arguing?

No he isn't. He's trying to institute strong socialist programs that will improve the lives of Americans.

Believe it or not (and I know what you'll do with that choice), socialist programs don't automatically equal socialist government.

[BigPapaKain]

(05-09-2021, 09:26 PM)Dill Wrote: I didn't hear BigP say Denmark etc. were socialist. 

He said they incorporated socialist policies, which a country can do without being socialist.

At least someone picked up what I was laying down.

[Belsnickel]

Can we stop conflating socialist policies with social programs? Now, I'm on BigP's side, so it pains me to do this, but the Nordic countries aren't really democratic socialist, but social democrats. A small, but important difference.

Socialism is the government/people owning the means of production. Social programs are when a government works to ensure the basic needs of the people are met. Capitalism with a strong set of social programs is 100% doable, but becomes harder in strong individualistic cultures (like the US) where the haves typically don't give a rat's ass about the have nots.

[Belsnickel]

(05-09-2021, 04:41 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: False.  You're the one who doesn't understand.

Not sure if you took any classes that covered taxes or employers paying taxes (I have associate degree in accounting), and I also took classes on business management, so I understand it all.

All income is taxed.

Even if employee wages are a write-off, employers are still making less if they're taxed more, meaning they'll just find ways to be more efficient and do things with less workers to off-set the taxes.  It seems like it would work, but individuals and companies aren't going to take the hit now just because it will hypothetically offset in the future, especially in the current times when people realize how quickly things can go bad, like they did with the Coronavirus.

Back when I was a tax accountant, there were times we'd have to call the IRS to get an answer to a question. The first thing we'd do upon getting a rep on the phone was to ask a simple question. If they answered wrong, then we'd ask to speak to their supervisor because they didn't have the knowledge needed to answer our more complex questions. That statement in bold would be an example of a wrong answer.

Now, the idea that wages are just a deduction on taxes is technically correct, but it doesn't work exactly the way that Fred was saying. Wages are an expense, so they do reduce the overall net income, but there is a point in which the law of diminishing returns comes into play. There are also a number of externalities involved that alter the calculation for the benefits to the employer of increasing their personnel services. In general, sure, increasing COGS decreases taxable revenue, but it's never as simple as either side likes to make it seem.

[*Nately120*]

(05-10-2021, 07:21 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Can we stop conflating socialist policies with social programs?

Stop socialism!  Defund the police!

I'm sorry, what were you saying?

[*michaelsean*]

(05-10-2021, 07:31 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Back when I was a tax accountant, there were times we'd have to call the IRS to get an answer to a question. The first thing we'd do upon getting a rep on the phone was to ask a simple question. If they answered wrong, then we'd ask to speak to their supervisor because they didn't have the knowledge needed to answer our more complex questions. That statement in bold would be an example of a wrong answer.

Now, the idea that wages are just a deduction on taxes is technically correct, but it doesn't work exactly the way that Fred was saying. Wages are an expense, so they do reduce the overall net income, but there is a point in which the law of diminishing returns comes into play. There are also a number of externalities involved that alter the calculation for the benefits to the employer of increasing their personnel services. In general, sure, increasing COGS decreases taxable revenue, but it's never as simple as either side likes to make it seem.

Yes adding employees and the benefits they can produce versus their cost can be complex.  It gets even more complex when you want to hire people who will not contribute directly to the bottom line through production such as compliance personnel, HR etc.  Unfortunately everyone wants to win an argument so there is no actual discussion.  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(05-10-2021, 07:21 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Can we stop conflating socialist policies with social programs? Now, I'm on BigP's side, so it pains me to do this, but the Nordic countries aren't really democratic socialist, but social democrats. A small, but important difference.

Socialism is the government/people owning the means of production. Social programs are when a government works to ensure the basic needs of the people are met. Capitalism with a strong set of social programs is 100% doable, but becomes harder in strong individualistic cultures (like the US) where the haves typically don't give a rat's ass about the have nots.

Thank you.  I kept getting the urge to add this point myself.  Whenever someone talks about European nations being an example of how socialism can work I want to pull my hair out.  

[Belsnickel]

(05-10-2021, 11:29 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes adding employees and the benefits they can produce versus their cost can be complex.  It gets even more complex when you want to hire people who will not contribute directly to the bottom line through production such as compliance personnel, HR etc.  Unfortunately everyone wants to win an argument so there is no actual discussion.  

Everyone likes to make things black and white; yes and no. They don't like nuance. The problem is that there is always nuance to whatever it is you're talking about. People want a solid answer, but they rarely exist.

(05-10-2021, 11:35 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Thank you.  I kept getting the urge to add this point myself.  Whenever someone talks about European nations being an example of how socialism can work I want to pull my hair out.  

It's one of those things I get tired of saying, but sometimes is needs to be said. Again.

[fredtoast]

(05-09-2021, 04:41 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: False.  You're the one who doesn't understand.

Not sure if you took any classes that covered taxes or employers paying taxes (I have associate degree in accounting), and I also took classes on business management, so I understand it all.

All income is taxed.

Actually it is pretty clear that you do not understand this issue at all.  There are two ways for owners (stockholders) to get profits out of a company.  

If a corporation has a million dollars income it can pull that money out, pay corporate income taxes on it, then pay it out to stockholders who then have to pay income tax on it again.

Or the corporation can re-invest the million dollars in income, and pay zero corporate income tax.  The re-investment increases the value of the stock.  The stockholders can then get their money by selling their stocks at a profit, but they pay about half as much income tax on the money they make because it is "capitol gains".

The higher the corporate tax rate the more incentive there is for companies to re-invest their income instead of pulling it out and paying corporate income tax on it.  Tax deduction like "wages paid" are also more valuable the higher the corporate tax rate.

(05-09-2021, 04:41 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:  they'll just find ways to be more efficient and do things with less workers to off-set the taxes. 

Corporation are ALREADY doing everything they can to keep the prices of labor down.  They are not just saying "Hey lets waste a lot of money on labor we don't need because we have a low corporate tax rate."  The cost of labor is a business expense that all businesses want to keep as low as possible no matter what the corporate tax rate.

This is almost as stupid as the claim that wealthy people would rather sit on their money making zero income with it instead of investing it and paying taxes on the profits they make.  Even with higher tax rates people are going to prefer making money and paying taxes over making nothing.