Time to pump the brakes: the Oline isn't that bad.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-13-2016, 12:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Haha, been saying that for years but i think Billings will be the man to supplant Peko myself.

Sims seemed like the one guy who gave a damn early though and i believe ended up getting a sack.

Dunlap and Sims were about the only defensive guys who came to play IMHO.

Truth about Billings....that one hurt this year....and most likely next.  With what we have now, I believe Simms is the better option, with Peko coming in to spell.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-13-2016, 12:39 PM)Wyche Wrote: Truth about Billings....that one hurt this year....and most likely next.  With what we have now, I believe Simms is the better option, with Peko coming in to spell.

The Billings injury frickin hurt no doubt. Hopefully he comes back fully next year cause this gets me excited.

My favorite player last draft.

I agree, Sims is also younger.

[Stonyhands]

(09-30-2016, 09:03 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 1. TE and WR blocking on the end of the line
2. New RT
3. Run blitz pickup
4. Missed open lanes 

That's how i would rank the problems.

Edge blocking is huge because it allows the RB that split second to make a cut and explode up field. I've see where we've pulled Zeitler to the left on a run play designed to go left where the defender on the right side of the line goes untouched and ends up tackling our RB from behind. Happens way too often.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-13-2016, 01:49 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Edge blocking is huge because it allows the RB that split second to make a cut and explode up field.  I've see where we've pulled Zeitler to the left on a run play designed to go left where the defender on the right side of the line goes untouched and ends up tackling our RB from behind.  Happens way too often.

Seen this too, i believe we need Hewitt out there much more to peel off and clean up the backside if we are going
to run these pull plays with the Guards. The RB can only do so much when waiting for the blocking in front of him.

[bengal kitten uk]

Here's the crazy sack where Zeitler pulls left on what appears to be a pass play:



We have 7 on 6 in the box, then a DB shows blitz but should be picked up by Hill after the play action. However, Zeitler inexplicably pulls, leaving us undermanned in the middle and Bodine finds himself losing leverage on the DT who gets clear through to Andy. Note that if 68 had stayed where he was we would have had a clean pocket and given Andy several seconds to pick his target.

gfycat.com

[bengal kitten uk]

And here's a typical run play to the outside where we only managed to gain a yard:



Note that we're running out of 4WR shotgun and the defence are in the nickle with a single high safety and 4DB out wide. In other words, hat on hat we should be able to open a lane and get 5+ yards before the safety can come up or the outside defenders can affect the play.

However, we mess up the 3v3 stunt with poor leverage and no downhill push, and the play is stopped at the line of scrimmage for a 1 yard gain.

gfycat.com

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Major reps BKUK.

The good news is these mistakes can be rectified, the bad news is well..

We have PA as our O-line coach.

[JumboTron]

(10-13-2016, 03:35 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: And here's a typical run play to the outside where we only managed to gain a yard:



Note that we're running out of 4WR shotgun and the defence are in the nickle with a single high safety and 4DB out wide.  In other words, hat on hat we should be able to open a lane and get 5+ yards before the safety can come up or the outside defenders can affect the play.

However, we mess up the 3v3 stunt with poor leverage and no downhill push, and the play is stopped at the line of scrimmage for a 1 yard gain.

gfycat.com

Let me save you some time:
Our O-line sucks.  We are bad vs stunts, combo pass rush and everything else, watching film cut-ups from coaches view just makes it hurt worse. 

[bengal kitten uk]

Finally, here's the real reason we lost:



Note that the pocket is as clean as you'll see and Andy had 3-4 seconds to find a target. However, even with 4 receivers running routes the only player even close to open is the back underneath. This was the story from pretty much the second quarter onwards as they sat in cover 2 and dared Andy to throw on them, which he couldn't do because none of our receivers were open.

Now, how do you beat Cover 2? Slants, screens and seams.

What didn't we call for the majority of the game? Slants, screens and seams.

You can watch the tape and see that Zampese had no clue how to beat the look the Cowboys were giving us. This loss wasn't on the OL - they actually did ok. The loss was on the defense and the offensive coordinator

gfycat.com

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

I sure hope Zamp is seriously looking at adding more slants, screen and seam routes.

It is our biggest weakness on Offense right now, something we need to learn from the Pats this Sunday.

There is good news though BKUK because these routes can be added to our trees, not like Green, Lafell and Boyd have not run them before.

Great stuff BKUK, have to say, impressive.

[bengal kitten uk]

(10-13-2016, 04:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great stuff BKUK, have to say, impressive.

The real props go to @rfaulk34 for this thread.  It inspired me to also rewatch the game on GamePass and discover that he was right.  I don't think our OL played as badly as we thought, it was just that Andy had to hold on the ball for too long because we were mostly running curl and out routes.

Even the sacks aren't as bad as I first thought.  For the most part you could put them down to Boling playing hurt and Ogbuehi being a rookie:

1. Zeitler pulling on a pass play
2. Boling not engaging his man and allowing him to loop back behind the man Bodine was blocking and get home from a different angle.
3. Whitworth and Boling lose a double team and let a man through while Kroft (pulling left on a pass play) misses his man as well
4. Ogbuehi just completely fails to block his man when he darts inside.  70 had committed to the outside leverage.  Luckily a penalty negated this sack.
5. Ogbuehi continuing his block when they were 4 on 2 and missing the long stunt by the DT coming completely around from the other side

I'm more concerned about the defense, tbh, and I can't bring myself to watch that tape

[WeezyBengal]

(09-30-2016, 08:44 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Let me first say, i was on the front lines, with my bull horn, screaming about how pathetic they were. Then i rewatched the game today when i got home. Every offensive play, frame by frame to find the breakdowns. 

Guys are going to get beat on occasion. That's a given. With that said, here is what i saw. 

1. Ced Ob, much more than anyone, missed a pickup or simply couldn't contain his block long enough to give the RB time to do something. 
2. TEs and WRs on the end of the line were very porous--much much more so than the 5 guys up front. 
3. Jeremy Hill missed many opportunities when there was real estate to the left or right. He had a tendency to run straight ahead into a pile when a cut either way would have given him some room...which brings me to this point; i really wonder if Hill even has the ability to be a one cut back. 

The Oline has had heaps of criticism dumped on their heads recently (this year and last) but when i went back and focused on their play and not my gut reaction while watching the game, i was very surprised in what i saw. Several holes were there for bigger gains and missed. I'd say there were more opportunities missed than there were missed blocks by a C, OG or OT. 

I know this thread won't be received well, or flat out ignored, but you can't deny what is there on tape when you look a little closer. 

The criticism of Hill is a valid one. Gio clearly looked like the better back when he was in the game. On the opening drive he ripped off a 10 and a 15 yarder I believe. 

The we got away from the run completely and Gio saw very few carries after the first quarter. I think Hill got 4 after that. We bailed on the run game and started throwing the ball all over the place due to being down so much I guess, even though im not sure its justified. 

I think this team needs to commit to running the ball with Gio for an entire game and see where it gets them. Dude is a good. 

[Bengal Dude]

(10-13-2016, 03:35 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: And here's a typical run play to the outside where we only managed to gain a yard:



Note that we're running out of 4WR shotgun and the defence are in the nickle with a single high safety and 4DB out wide.  In other words, hat on hat we should be able to open a lane and get 5+ yards before the safety can come up or the outside defenders can affect the play.

However, we mess up the 3v3 stunt with poor leverage and no downhill push, and the play is stopped at the line of scrimmage for a 1 yard gain.

gfycat.com

Wow, we still run this play? I remember seeing this back in 2009. I can't believe we've been hanging onto this gem for that long.

[WeezyBengal]

(10-13-2016, 04:25 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: The real props go to @rfaulk34 for this thread.  It inspired me to also rewatch the game on GamePass and discover that he was right.  I don't think our OL played as badly as we thought, it was just that Andy had to hold on the ball for too long because we were mostly running curl and out routes.

Even the sacks aren't as bad as I first thought.  For the most part you could put them down to Boling playing hurt and Ogbuehi being a rookie:

1. Zeitler pulling on a pass play
2. Boling not engaging his man and allowing him to loop back behind the man Bodine was blocking and get home from a different angle.
3. Whitworth and Boling lose a double team and let a man through while Kroft (pulling left on a pass play) misses his man as well
4. Ogbuehi just completely fails to block his man when he darts inside.  70 had committed to the outside leverage.  Luckily a penalty negated this sack.
5. Ogbuehi continuing his block when they were 4 on 2 and missing the long stunt by the DT coming completely around from the other side

I'm more concerned about the defense, tbh, and I can't bring myself to watch that tape

This is why Hugh was such a big loss for us. He was SO good at giving Andy a PLAN on what to do with the ball before the play even happened. We were so good with screens and short slants last year and now they are non existent. Andy had the quickest release in football last year and now im sure its not even close to what it was. 

[BengalFanInNJ]

Not sure how you can say Bodine wasn't a bit culpable. He got tossed by his man (92) who sacked Dalton in the first play, and on the second one, he's on his knees trying to block a lineman who for all intents and purposes was not going to effect the outcome of the play.

I do agree though that Zeiter's guy made the play on the Hill run and on the sack, I have no idea why Zeitler was pulling.

[brian5562]

I'm not going to kill Zeitler for pulling. Dalton has a run pass option and decided based on what the D was showing he went with the pass. It looks like we was looking for a quick throw but the receiver didn't run the right option route and Bodine who down blocked on Zeitler's man got manhandled.

[bengals67]

whoever says 'commit to run" are you really serious?

If they commit to run they will core zero points in first half against New England and really anyone else we play.

Run blocking is God awful. No push at all. Gio will be killed.

The only chance this offense has depends on passing on first down and picking up 4 to 6 yards.

We need to pass to set up the run. Our run blocking, particularly against the top teams, has been just terrible for years.

when have we ever put up high rushing totals against a top tier defense or the Steelers?

For a team that took Bob Johnson as its very first draft pick, the failure to find a decent replacement for Braham since 2005-06 is truly hard to understand.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-13-2016, 03:22 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: Here's the crazy sack where Zeitler pulls left on what appears to be a pass play:



We have 7 on 6 in the box, then a DB shows blitz but should be picked up by Hill after the play action.  However, Zeitler inexplicably pulls, leaving us undermanned in the middle and Bodine finds himself losing leverage on the DT who gets clear through to Andy.  Note that if 68 had stayed where he was we would have had a clean pocket and given Andy several seconds to pick his target.

gfycat.com

Yup. Bodine looked like he was expecting a double team from Z and when he realized dude had vacated the premises, it was too late and he got knocked on his arse. 

(10-13-2016, 03:35 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: And here's a typical run play to the outside where we only managed to gain a yard:



Note that we're running out of 4WR shotgun and the defence are in the nickle with a single high safety and 4DB out wide.  In other words, hat on hat we should be able to open a lane and get 5+ yards before the safety can come up or the outside defenders can affect the play.

However, we mess up the 3v3 stunt with poor leverage and no downhill push, and the play is stopped at the line of scrimmage for a 1 yard gain.

gfycat.com

That was one that stood out to me when i was watching it yesterday. Hill could have easily bounced that outside. He even had a couple wideouts ready to block for him but for some reason, he tried to force it back inside.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-13-2016, 05:13 PM)brian5562 Wrote: I'm not going to kill Zeitler for pulling. Dalton has a run pass option and decided based on what the D was showing he went with the pass. It looks like we was looking for a quick throw but the receiver didn't run the right option route and Bodine who down blocked on Zeitler's man got manhandled.

Z was dead staring at #20 the whole time Dalton was going through his cadence. He was intent on getting over there regardless. 

And he had to almost ran Jeremy Hill over to get to him. 

[GodFather]

(09-30-2016, 08:44 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Let me first say, i was on the front lines, with my bull horn, screaming about how pathetic they were. Then i rewatched the game today when i got home. Every offensive play, frame by frame to find the breakdowns. 

Guys are going to get beat on occasion. That's a given. With that said, here is what i saw. 

1. Ced Ob, much more than anyone, missed a pickup or simply couldn't contain his block long enough to give the RB time to do something. 
2. TEs and WRs on the end of the line were very porous--much much more so than the 5 guys up front. 
3. Jeremy Hill missed many opportunities when there was real estate to the left or right. He had a tendency to run straight ahead into a pile when a cut either way would have given him some room...which brings me to this point; i really wonder if Hill even has the ability to be a one cut back. 

The Oline has had heaps of criticism dumped on their heads recently (this year and last) but when i went back and focused on their play and not my gut reaction while watching the game, i was very surprised in what i saw. Several holes were there for bigger gains and missed. I'd say there were more opportunities missed than there were missed blocks by a C, OG or OT. 

I know this thread won't be received well, or flat out ignored, but you can't deny what is there on tape when you look a little closer. 

Cocaine is a hell of a drug....