Trump Slams Allies in favor of Putin (again)...

[jj22]

Folks still pushing the Russian Propaganda Fake News that Sanders was a Democrat and the DNC should have supported him. Sad! Does Fox News have a disease for this too?

Oh I got it........... Deep Denial.

I mean why believe Sanders when you can believe Putin and his Russian bots. Right Trump supporters? And they claim Russian's didn't influence their thinking. Here we are 21 months later and they are still struggling with reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXJPSHpBCdw

[Dill]

(07-23-2018, 03:07 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well hell some liberals have been trying to tell us for years that if we support a police or fire dept we support socialism as a way to cleverly trap us.  

Because that is not socialism, but SS and Medicare are?

[*michaelsean*]

(07-23-2018, 03:09 PM)Dill Wrote: Because that is not socialism, but SS and Medicare are?

I don't think any of them are true socialism, but you'll have to talk to some libs about that.  They are the ones we are secret socialists if we support any of these things.

[fredtoast]

(07-23-2018, 02:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Many consider Socialists to be on the extreme left. Especially economically.

Because socialists support government control of the means of production.

But Bernie is not a socialist.  He is a social democrat.  He believes in a capitalist economic system with strong social programs.

[Millhouse]

(07-23-2018, 02:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Also not a socialist policy, but a policy I am not largely in favor of. There ought to be policies in place to increase access to tuition, but just a generic "free college tuition" thing is stupid. Policies geared to educating the work force, whether it be through trade schools, business schools, or liberal arts education are a good thing and help foster a more democratic society, but there hasn't been any good policies, IMHO.

All of that being said, this is also not a great example of what you are talking about. Not only is it not a socialist policy, it is also favored by a majority. A poll done last year found that about 63% of Americans overall supported the policy, including a slim majority of Republicans and 50% of self-identified Tea Party types.

I said socialistic, not a socialist policy, as there is a difference in the two. Meaning, a government that mandates free college or free healthcare, is socialistic in nature like how Social Security is (which I endorse), but not full blown socialism.

Now while I admit there has been an increase in support of this overall based on other sources than just this one poll of 1994 voters, I am bit skeptical of this as well One reason I am skeptical is because I have yet talked to anyone that actually supports free college tuition. Even many if not most in here seemed opposed to it, which is odd for something that supposedly is favored by most Americans.

[*bfine32*]

(07-23-2018, 03:09 PM)Dill Wrote: Because that is not socialism, but SS and Medicare are?

How is SS socialism? Isn't it based on what I paid in? 

[*bfine32*]

(07-23-2018, 03:07 PM)jj22 Wrote: Folks still pushing the Russian Propaganda Fake News that Sanders was a Democrat and the DNC should have supported him. Sad! Does Fox News have a disease for this too?

(07-23-2018, 03:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But Bernie is not a socialist.  He is a social democrat.  

B elsnickle Wrote:Who are the extreme left candidates? Sanders, even though he said he was a democratic socialist, really wasn't. He was a social democrat, which is a center-left ideology. Same for what's-her-face in NY.

You three may want to iron this out. 

[fredtoast]

(07-23-2018, 03:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How is SS socialism? Isn't it based on what I paid in? 

Not if you are a child whose parents have died or if you are disabled.

[*bfine32*]

(07-23-2018, 03:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not if you are a child whose parents have died or if you are disabled.

AKA unable to earn. 

But by and large isn't SS based on what I paid in? Pretty much the opposite of Socialism.

[Millhouse]

A real socialist (or as some put it a progressive) running for office is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who just upset a longtime Dem congressman in the primary. She is a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. She has gotten recent vocal support from Bernie, but most Dems are veering clear from her as well.

[*bfine32*]

I will say I am enjoying the tangent the thread has taken, but let's see if we can find a more appropriate thread for it; as it has nothing to do with the OP.

[Millhouse]

(07-23-2018, 03:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: How is SS socialism? Isn't it based on what I paid in? 

To a point it is. My grandmother worked for 5 years back in the 1940s. After she got married, she didnt work again. Yet she collected SS for almost 30 years, and received far more back than what she paid into it, inflation included.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-23-2018, 03:30 PM)Millhouse Wrote: A real socialist (or as some put it a progressive) running for office is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who just upset a longtime Dem congressman in the primary. She is a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. She has gotten recent vocal support from Bernie, but most Dems are veering clear from her as well.

Hell they were calling her the face of the future in the Dem party not that long ago.  Then she spoke.  Smoking hot though.

[fredtoast]

(07-10-2018, 03:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course he should, He could point to those being redirected to fund things stateside such as the VA and/or homeland security/border security.  

There are no funds to be redirected. We did not increase spending in Europe because the other NATO nations did not spend 2% of GDP on defense.


That is the lie Trump is trying to pass off.  But educated people know better. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-23-2018, 02:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Many consider Socialists to be on the extreme left. Especially economically.

And who are the socialists running/winning?

(07-23-2018, 03:30 PM)Millhouse Wrote: A real socialist (or as some put it a progressive) running for office is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez who just upset a longtime Dem congressman in the primary. She is a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. She has gotten recent vocal support from Bernie, but most Dems are veering clear from her as well.

Actually, she isn't a real socialist. Even though she is a DSA member, she isn't taken a DSA position on issues, she is a social democrat. Same for Bernie.

[Dill]

(07-23-2018, 03:11 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't think any of them are true socialism, but you'll have to talk to some libs about that.  They are the ones we are secret socialists if we support any of these things.

Agreed. I think Bill Maher argued somewhere that social security=socialism, to convince people they already espoused it. Don't forget, though, that there are people in the US who want to end SS and Medicare, and they are not libs. They have been calling SS "socialism" since FDR proposed it, and Medicare that since 1965.

[*bfine32*]

(07-23-2018, 03:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There are no funds to be redirected. We did not increase spending in Europe because the other NATO nations did not spend 2% of GDP on defense.


That is the lie Trump is trying to pass off.  But educated people know better. 

For real? You went back 20 pages to try to find something that you could use to consider someone uneducated. Pathetic.

If you look at post 33 you will se that I fully understand about the 2% mandate; whoever that does not mean that we do not pay the largest portion (over 22%) of the direct funding to NATO; that is the money that we could threaten to redirect. 

However, I do applaud your attempt to get us back on subject. No matter how feeble that attempt was. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-23-2018, 03:07 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well hell some liberals have been trying to tell us for years that if we support a police or fire dept we support socialism as a way to cleverly trap us.  

I used to say those sorts of things. Then I learned that I was wrong. That was several years ago.

(07-23-2018, 03:18 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I said socialistic, not a socialist policy, as there is a difference in the two. Meaning, a government that mandates free college or free healthcare, is socialistic in nature like how Social Security is (which I endorse), but not full blown socialism.

Is there? https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/socialistic

(07-23-2018, 03:18 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Now while I admit there has been an increase in support of this overall based on other sources than just this one poll of 1994 voters, I am bit skeptical of this as well One reason I am skeptical is because I have yet talked to anyone that actually supports free college tuition. Even many if not most in here seemed opposed to it, which is odd for something that supposedly is favored by most Americans.

I know there are other sources, but I'm not digging for the numerous studies on it. One source to show I'm not pulling information out of my ass suffices. As for your anecdotal evidence, there is a reason anecdotal evidence doesn't stand up to any testing. One, we tend to talk more to people that see things in a similar way that we do. That's human nature. The other side of things is that if you broke it down beyond the dichotomy of "yes or no," you might find that some of the people you know do, in fact, favor some form of free college tuition. They would fall into what some polls typically call "somewhat support" for this particular policy. Trying to break it down to a yes or no for support ignores the large number of variations in the policy that have been discussed and proposed.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-23-2018, 03:51 PM)Dill Wrote: Agreed. I think Bill Maher argued somewhere that social security=socialism, to convince people they already espoused it. Don't forget, though, that there are people in the US who want to end SS and Medicare, and they are not libs. They have been calling SS "socialism" since FDR proposed it, and Medicare that since 1965.

I'll admit, I'm not the biggest fan of SS, but it's too big now.  I don't dislike it   because of socialism but because I don't think it's something the government should be involved in.  I also don't like if you are married and you die, one of the two benefits goes away. Or if you are single and die at say age 55,  it just disappears.    

[Dill]

(07-23-2018, 03:18 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I said socialistic, not a socialist policy, as there is a difference in the two. Meaning, a government that mandates free college or free healthcare, is socialistic in nature like how Social Security is (which I endorse), but not full blown socialism.

Now while I admit there has been an increase in support of this overall based on other sources than just this one poll of 1994 voters, I am bit skeptical of this as well One reason I am skeptical is because I have yet talked to anyone that actually supports free college tuition. Even many if not most in here seemed opposed to it, which is odd for something that supposedly is favored by most Americans.

I must say, Mill, the difference between "socialistic in nature" and "socialist" is not clear here.

Does the former refer to a practice of socializing the cost of some public goods while means of production remain largely in private hands?