Well.....Well....Well...

[*PhilHos*]

(06-25-2018, 04:20 PM)GMDino Wrote: Off topic: This came up in a conversation a couple weeks ago about the nazi parade and how if I speak out against them I am "anti-free speech" and "intolerant".  To which I replied I am intolerant of anyone who spews hate and division versus love and inclusion.

Unsurprisingly that didn't matter.

What you should have said was that you didn't want to shut them up. You just wanted to point out how they're full of hate and how much they suck and all that. If you watned to shut them up, then you're "anti-free speech" if you're responding to who they are as a group, that's different. Also, you should have said that it's okay to be intolerant.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-26-2018, 10:18 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I also read an opinion piece, though just now. Here it is: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/trump-sarah-huckabee-sanders-restaurant-civility.html

Agree or disagree with it, I really don't care. The main point of the piece is that things like this aren't because civility is breaking down, it is because democracy is breaking down. One thing I can say for certain is that democracy is breaking down in this country. Our plutocratic government has for decades been increasingly ignoring the vast majority of the citizenry to pass laws and enact policies that favor their own. As the bottom 90% or more of the population fights with each other for a smaller and smaller piece of the economic pie here in the US, the wealthy keep racking up more profits and increasing their political influence. They make sure to keep people focused on immigration so that the white people beneath them keep their ire focused on the brown and black people instead of on the wealthy who are really responsible for their ills.

Societies operate in cycles. Always have, likely always will. Our founders tried to change that but some segments of society decided to ignore what they said and did. They made it strong, there is a reason we have the oldest written constitution still in use, today. I don't know how much longer it is going to last, though. I only hope the change comes via the ballot box.

Here's an interesting op-ed discussing this very thing...

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/05/21/coming-collapse?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork#

[*michaelsean*]

(06-26-2018, 11:42 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: That's making an assumption. I know many people that would engage in this behavior that know how to be civil. Hell, some of them are better at it than most people I know. The problem is that civility isn't getting the people anywhere. When your elected officials aren't responsive to civility and you don't have the money to give them what we know they listen to, and our electoral system is rigged to favor partisanship over the people, what options are left?

It seems to be only rigged one way according to the story.  It is a 100% partisan hack job that tried and failed to disguise itself as something else.  She's not interested in the failing of democracy even a little.  She's interested in pointing fingers at people she disagrees with. Shocking how she couldn't come up with one Democrat, liberal, progressive who has contributed to any of this.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-26-2018, 11:46 AM)Wyche Wrote: Here's an interesting op-ed discussing this very thing...

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/05/21/coming-collapse?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork#

Nah that holds people without an R after their name accountable as well.

[Belsnickel]

(06-26-2018, 11:47 AM)michaelsean Wrote: It seems to be only rigged one way according to the story.  It is a 100% partisan hack job that tried and failed to disguise itself as something else.  She's not interested in the failing of democracy even a little.  She's interested in pointing fingers at people she disagrees with.

One of the things that is always interesting to me when I look at policy mood data is that our country is more liberal than most people realize. When people get asked about policy positions, the majority are in favor of more liberal positions. Oftentimes, even people that consider themselves to be conservatives are in favor of more liberal positions, often more liberal than the Democratic establishment adheres to.

This is a one sided thing, but it isn't Democrat or Republican one sided, it's the wealthy versus everyone else. The wealthy have the influence to push for policies that protect their well being, and damn the rest the of the people. They use their influence in the media to ensure the message gets out to convince people that what they're doing is right for the poor and middle classes.

People who are truly populists, both from the right wing and the left wing, should be working together to ensure we become a more democratic society. But first we need to recognize the influence the plutocracy has over the system to break free from it.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-26-2018, 11:50 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Nah that holds people without an R after their name accountable as well.

Which, as a lifelong independent, I applaud. :andy:

[*michaelsean*]

(06-26-2018, 11:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: One of the things that is always interesting to me when I look at policy mood data is that our country is more liberal than most people realize. When people get asked about policy positions, the majority are in favor of more liberal positions. Oftentimes, even people that consider themselves to be conservatives are in favor of more liberal positions, often more liberal than the Democratic establishment adheres to.

This is a one sided thing, but it isn't Democrat or Republican one sided, it's the wealthy versus everyone else. The wealthy have the influence to push for policies that protect their well being, and damn the rest the of the people. They use their influence in the media to ensure the message gets out to convince people that what they're doing is right for the poor and middle classes.

People who are truly populists, both from the right wing and the left wing, should be working together to ensure we become a more democratic society. But first we need to recognize the influence the plutocracy has over the system to break free from it.

I agree it's not a one sided thing as far as Dem and Rep, but that's not what your column claims at all.  

[*PhilHos*]

(06-25-2018, 05:28 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: How long before someone on the extreme left or right decides its high time to start murdering those they disagree with and succeed?

It's already happened.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting

[Belsnickel]

(06-26-2018, 11:58 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Which, as a lifelong independent, I applaud. :andy:

Hell, I'm a Democrat and I applaud it. I'm tired of our current party. I am a progressive, I'm a New Deal style of Democrat (without the racism). We lost our way from that. It's why we're in this situation.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-26-2018, 11:55 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: One of the things that is always interesting to me when I look at policy mood data is that our country is more liberal than most people realize. When people get asked about policy positions, the majority are in favor of more liberal positions. Oftentimes, even people that consider themselves to be conservatives are in favor of more liberal positions, often more liberal than the Democratic establishment adheres to.

This is a one sided thing, but it isn't Democrat or Republican one sided, it's the wealthy versus everyone else. The wealthy have the influence to push for policies that protect their well being, and damn the rest the of the people. They use their influence in the media to ensure the message gets out to convince people that what they're doing is right for the poor and middle classes.

People who are truly populists, both from the right wing and the left wing, should be working together to ensure we become a more democratic society. But first we need to recognize the influence the plutocracy has over the system to break free from it.

.....and neither of the two major parties want this to happen.  So what does that leave us with?

[Belsnickel]

(06-26-2018, 11:59 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I agree it's not a one sided thing as far as Dem and Rep, but that's not what your column claims at all.  

I know, which is why I took the idea in a different direction with my post. It's why I focused on the breakdown of democracy, which was the overall point, and didn't focus on the partisanship.

[GMDino]

(06-26-2018, 11:46 AM)Wyche Wrote: Here's an interesting op-ed discussing this very thing...

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2018/05/21/coming-collapse?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=socialnetwork#

(06-26-2018, 11:50 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Nah that holds people without an R after their name accountable as well.

Indeed.  

But it also points out that they should be the ones really attempting to fix it as Trump and the GOP never will. 

[Belsnickel]

(06-26-2018, 12:00 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: .....and neither of the two major parties want this to happen.  So what does that leave us with?

This is the big question, isn't it? Revolution is a potential. People think of it as a second civil war, but I think what could happen is much more like the French Revolution.

I'd like to believe that we could fix things without a revolution, but I think technocratic or incremental change is going to be too slow. There will need to be big structural changes before anything can really be calmed. I want these to happen by ballot box, I am a pacifist after all. I just fear that won't be possible and there is a growing contingent of populist extremists out there feeling the same.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-26-2018, 12:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I know, which is why I took the idea in a different direction with my post. It's why I focused on the breakdown of democracy, which was the overall point, and didn't focus on the partisanship.

OK, but it would be a bit like me presenting  A Tale of Two Cities, and then discussing 17th century puritanical America.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-26-2018, 12:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Hell, I'm a Democrat and I applaud it. I'm tired of our current party. I am a progressive, I'm a New Deal style of Democrat (without the racism). We lost our way from that. It's why we're in this situation.

I get that.....but I see so many holding on to those vestiges, and blind to the current situation.  They're too busy pointing fingers.  Take the current refugee camps everyone is up in arms over....those were exposed on a tv show in 2011.  Then, it was viewed as "conspiracy theory", and "crackpot" reporting.  Now, it isn't looking so "nuts".  Yet, here we are, mudslinging.  Those massive facilities, aka "fusion centers" weren't just built for the hell of it.  Tells me, this has all been in the works for sometime.  While everyone was up in arms over a coat, the fed raided the SS fund for the first time in 36 years.  We MUST move past all of this rhetoric and "fanning flames" as a society and wake up to what is going on "behind the curtain" if we're ever to truly make our government represent us.  RCV in Maine is a start.....there is much more to be done.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-26-2018, 12:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: Indeed.  

But it also points out that they should be the ones really attempting to fix it as Trump and the GOP never will. 

Agreed, but I don't think the other side will either......

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-26-2018, 12:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is the big question, isn't it? Revolution is a potential. People think of it as a second civil war, but I think what could happen is much more like the French Revolution.

I'd like to believe that we could fix things without a revolution, but I think technocratic or incremental change is going to be too slow. There will need to be big structural changes before anything can really be calmed. I want these to happen by ballot box, I am a pacifist after all. I just fear that won't be possible and there is a growing contingent of populist extremists out there feeling the same.

You share the same views as me Matt.  I gotta admit, I'm pretty alarmed by the turn this country is taking.  If we don't get things changed soon, we may be looking at a massive civil unrest.  I have been paying close attention to works by Represent.Us, and the IVN.  Their plan is infiltration via grassroots movement at the local levels to start.  It's a decent plan, but it's going to take us being active and proactive, and most importantly....coming together.  I have a little hope, but the coming together part gives me pause in today's climate.  The rise of the independent keeps the hope alive for me.

[Millhouse]

(06-26-2018, 12:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is the big question, isn't it? Revolution is a potential. People think of it as a second civil war, but I think what could happen is much more like the French Revolution.

I'd like to believe that we could fix things without a revolution, but I think technocratic or incremental change is going to be too slow. There will need to be big structural changes before anything can really be calmed. I want these to happen by ballot box, I am a pacifist after all. I just fear that won't be possible and there is a growing contingent of populist extremists out there feeling the same.

Problem is people are too lazy for a revolution. As long as we have our precious little smartphones & tablets working, internet & cable, social media, gas for our cars, groceries in our kitchen, drive-thrus, and pizza delivery, why the need to rebel? 

[*bfine32*]

(06-26-2018, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The point Matt is making is that it is a specific issue and not applicable to all Republicans or conservatives.

No he's not just ask him.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-26-2018, 12:06 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is the big question, isn't it? Revolution is a potential. People think of it as a second civil war, but I think what could happen is much more like the French Revolution.

I'd like to believe that we could fix things without a revolution, but I think technocratic or incremental change is going to be too slow. There will need to be big structural changes before anything can really be calmed. I want these to happen by ballot box, I am a pacifist after all. I just fear that won't be possible and there is a growing contingent of populist extremists out there feeling the same.

(06-26-2018, 12:15 PM)Wyche Wrote: You share the same views as me Matt.  I gotta admit, I'm pretty alarmed by the turn this country is taking.  If we don't get things changed soon, we may be looking at a massive civil unrest.  I have been paying close attention to works by Represent.Us, and the IVN.  Their plan is infiltration via grassroots movement at the local levels to start.  It's a decent plan, but it's going to take us being active and proactive, and most importantly....coming together.  I have a little hope, but the coming together part gives me pause in today's climate.  The rise of the independent keeps the hope alive for me.

Here's the real issue, and it isn't that democracy isn't working, it's that major decisions have been made outside of it of late.  Same sex marriage was imposed on the nation by the courts, no one voted it in and the elected legislature did not vote for or the POTUS sign it in to law, (please note I am not commenting on the morality of same sex marriage or anything other than how it was finally implemented).  If you go back to 2008 in CA and prop 8, which would have banned same sex marriage, passed by ~5% in a uber liberal state that Obama carried by ~24% points.  Even in CA same sex marriage would have been banned.  Now, I can foresee people making the argument that the result would be different if held now and I have to say that, while it may be closer, I could easily see prop 8 passing if it was voted on tomorrow.  In any event, you have a major, seismic, shift in the US social fabric being implemented by the judicial branch.  This has, of course, been followed by a further pushing of "the envelope" when it comes to transgender, gender fluid, non-binary, zie/zir and the like.  You think the people who were on the fence about same sex marriage aren't reacting in even stronger terms to the continued push in this direction, just not publicly?

Secondly, you have Trump's EC victory.  Again, I am not commenting on the validity of the EC or the fact it has been in use for hundreds of years.  Trump winning an EC victory despite losing the popular vote is also perceived as the system operating outside of the democratic tradition.  So, you have cries of "illegitimate" and "impeach" from the day after the election forward.  This pushes Trump voters further to the right as they perceive it as sour grapes and a refusal to acknowledge the election results.  


So, really, democracy is not what's under attack, it's the decisions outside the democratic process that have brought us to this point.  As to a revolution, we aren't anywhere near one yet, but I agree we are heading in that direction and are closer than we've been at anytime since 1866.  If I'm a left leaning person I certainly don't want one as the military, law enforcement and private gun owners swing heavily right.