Were the injuries too much to overcome this year?

[Sled21]

(11-28-2018, 01:25 PM)eoxyod Wrote: Issa joke about how the team has him in on random key downs

Ah, gotcha...

[Joelist]

The defense was crud with or without injuries.

The offense started off good but losing all the TEs gutted the playbook and TBH Lazor did not adapt. Losing Price like we did for those games stunted his development and then of course losing AJ left us Boyd and scrubs not ready for prime time as targets. Also losing Gio and Mixon for alternating spurts both means we did not have our best pass protection back and again another target missing. Finally the OL has imploded. Glenn has been playing hurt all year and both Hart and Redmond have been bad.

So the offense stalling out is on both injuries and lack of creative scheming to get around them.

[XsandOs]

(11-28-2018, 10:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I fear that injuries will be the reason for the Bengals to go status quo with the coaching staff and roster.

Even healthy, this roster wasn't winning a playoff game.

Our roster is maybe somewhere in the 20-25th best roster in the NFL when healthy.

I was looking forward to the season because I wanted to see what a healthy Eifert and Ross' speed could add to the Green, Dalton, Mixon , Boyd mix.

The offense I saw in the first three games had me thinking a deep playoff run. I felt that the defense would compliment the high scoring offense...

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-28-2018, 09:45 PM)XsandOs Wrote: The offense I saw in the first three games had me thinking a deep playoff run. 

Less Kool-Aid will clear your thoughts. Our OL was NEVER going to be good enough to go anywhere in the playoffs (nor was the LB group even before injuries). 

[Shake n Blake]

(11-27-2018, 09:12 PM)Synric Wrote: Actually I could argue Marvin over McCarthy because McCarthy is ruining the career or one of the best QBs in football...
Why do I say this because he has a super bowl win? McCarthy has Aaron Rodgers but refuses to put in a good offensive system. The Packers are extremely generic with their offense instead depending on Rodgers to be spectacular every snap. They don't do things like the Patriots, Rams, Chiefs, Saints who use their system to get guys in space.

As for the Bengals injuries the RB injuries hurt because they had no one to spell the other guy. And Glasgow was the 1 of 3 DT to start the season when he went down they were forces to use a rookie DE inside where he wasn't suited. The TEs dropped one right after another never giving them a solid game with 2 tight ends mid season having to bring in a new one each week.

So of course injuries have played a part. Is it the only reason they are losing no but it's a huge one.

1. McCarthy has a ring and was able to keep the team afloat in the playoff race even when Rodgers was out a few years ago. To have a team completely built around Rodgers still winning a few games with Matt Flynn at QB was pretty impressive, IMO. Compare that to the Colts when Peyton injured his neck.

2. You talk about not having a RB to spell the other guy like it's a huge loss, when the Packers were down to their 3rd string guy. Mixon and/or Gio >>> Brandon Jackson (who?).

I've already shown in vivid detail how the Packers lost more players, better players, for longer periods of time. They went on to win the SB. We're sitting at 5-6 and fading fast. Why? Because this team simply wasn't good enough. If a few injuries breaks you, you're not worthy of being a playoff team...and we won't be. 

This defense was abysmal from the word go. Before injuries. That should be the narrative for 2018. We didn't fire the DC "cuz injuries".

(11-28-2018, 12:02 AM)XsandOs Wrote: Let's compare the two teams related to starters when the season is over.

Their OL, receivers and QB were essentially untouched. Big difference!

They lost their starting RT and Jermichael Finley was literally their leading receiver when he got hurt (after 5 games).

QB is irrelevant because we were losing WITH Dalton. You can't blame losing on an injury when we were losing with the injured player.

[XsandOs]

(11-29-2018, 04:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. McCarthy has a ring and was able to keep the team afloat in the playoff race even when Rodgers was out a few years ago. To have a team completely built around Rodgers still winning a few games with Matt Flynn at QB was pretty impressive, IMO. Compare that to the Colts when Peyton injured his neck.

2. You talk about not having a RB to spell the other guy like it's a huge loss, when the Packers were down to their 3rd string guy. Mixon and/or Gio >>> Brandon Jackson (who?).

I've already shown in vivid detail how the Packers lost more players, better players, for longer periods of time. They went on to win the SB. We're sitting at 5-6 and fading fast. Why? Because this team simply wasn't good enough. If a few injuries breaks you, you're not worthy of being a playoff team...and we won't be. 

This defense was abysmal from the word go. Before injuries. That should be the narrative for 2018. We didn't fire the DC "cuz injuries".


They lost their starting RT and Jermichael Finley was literally their leading receiver when he got hurt (after 5 games).

QB is irrelevant because we were losing WITH Dalton. You can't blame losing on an injury when we were losing with the injured player.

Shake my friend, Fisher makes it 14.

Also, when we had green and Dalton together, we were 5-3. That is the exact record the Packers had after 8 games in 2010. Then we lost green at the end of the 8th game.

I call 5-3 a winning record. And that was with our C out multiple games, multiple TEs out, our RBs rotating with injury weeks.

You seem like an intelligent guy. Look at what happened this year with injuries.

[Tomkat]

Due to injuries, this is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO THE SAME TEAM that started 4-1.
Make of that what you will.

[Bengalholic]

I hate to give the Steelers any kind of credit for anything at all   ... but if you go back to the 2015 season - when the Bengals started 8-0 and the Steelers were decimated by injuries, especially in the first half of the season - you see a very clear example of a team that knows how to overcome adversity and one that doesn't.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-29-2018, 04:57 PM)XsandOs Wrote: Shake my friend, Fisher makes it 14.

Also, when we had green and Dalton together, we were 5-3. That is the exact record the Packers had after 8 games in 2010. Then we lost green at the end of the 8th game.

I call 5-3 a winning record. And that was with our C out multiple games, multiple TEs out, our RBs rotating with injury weeks.

You seem like an intelligent guy. Look at what happened this year with injuries.

Le sigh....

1. Fisher blows. Losing him hardly qualifies as a "loss". Plus this team is already down the tubes, so any future injuries are moot, and only relevant for excuse purposes.

2. We were 1-2 in Green's last 3 games. The defense was (and is still) on pace to shatter all-time records (bad ones). If you think losing AJ Green is why this team has lost it's last 3 games, I don't know what to tell ya. Maybe look at the scores and refresh your memory?

3. I am an intelligent guy...intelligent enough to see this team has a plethora of problems outside of injuries, and intelligent enough to see that the 5-3 record was smoke and mirrors. 4 game winning drives by Dalton. Winning by the skin of our teeth, despite a historically bad defense and an offense that was hit and miss. Then we lost to the Steelers per usual and began falling apart at the seams. 

---------------

Look...tell yourself what you have to in order to get through the day. Change your name to Geoff Hobson for all I care...but when I look back at 2018, I'll remember the historically bad defense, an o-line that still looked shaky at best, and an unimaginative Lazor offense before I'll remember the injuries. They did happen and they didn't help...but the season was already unraveling before the worst injuries.

21-28 L to Steelers happened with a healthy Dalton, Green, Mixon, etc
10-45 L to Chiefs happened with those guys all healthy
We barely scraped out a win over a bad Bucs team with those guys healthy, and that's our last W

What we've seen since is just a continuation of that. The injuries to Green, Dalton and whoever else since are just a nice little convenient excuse.

[Shake n Blake]

This defense is allowing an absurd 31.5 points/game, and it's been that way all season. Injuries aren't to blame for that.

Anyone who thought our offense would be able to keep up with that and win all season is delusional.

[J24]

(11-30-2018, 02:12 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This defense is allowing an absurd 31.5 points/game, and it's been that way all season. Injuries aren't to blame for that.

Anyone who thought our offense would be able to keep up with that and win all season is delusional.

There actually averaging about 36 points a game since week 6 (26 prior). They also have given up 55% third down percentage and 86 total third downs which is 19 more than the falcons.who are 2nd last. The differential between the falcons and the 5th best team has a less differential. 
I would say that the loss of Vigil and Carl Lawson have been huge but in 2013 we lost Geno, Mays, Lamur, and Hall and it didn't make a difference. The deph particularly at LB is Horrendous.

[grampahol]

(11-26-2018, 06:56 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Brown was useless, Burfict clearly was useless and Vigil is whatever. This group was going to suck regardless of injuries and suspensions. 

Pure speculation . Nobody knows how Brown, Burfict and Vigil might have done had all 3 been healthy the entire season playing together.  We can't know how the defensive line might have done with the 4 IRed guys and hard telling how the offense may have been with Price healthy and/or Taylor and all of TEs playing healthy. The easiest thing in the world to do is to dismiss them all when few even had the chance . But go ahead and toss out your uneducated opinion . My own uneducated opinion says they would have been far better. Neither of us can prove nor disprove it.

[grampahol]

I'm thinking that depending on who is coaching this team next year and if all the injured players return (excluding free agents who leave) we might just have a pretty decent shot. It'll also depend on the draft and who they pick up and there's a chance old Mikey boy might actually decide to make judicious trades and possibly bring in free agents although I'm not about to bet on the last two. 
I'd like to see Marvin replaced, but be careful what you wish for as not all replacement head coaches are created equally. I certainly don't want to see a repeat of the Shula mess .

[*Synric*]

(11-29-2018, 04:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. McCarthy has a ring and was able to keep the team afloat in the playoff race even when Rodgers was out a few years ago. To have a team completely built around Rodgers still winning a few games with Matt Flynn at QB was pretty impressive, IMO. Compare that to the Colts when Peyton injured his neck.

2. You talk about not having a RB to spell the other guy like it's a huge loss, when the Packers were down to their 3rd string guy. Mixon and/or Gio >>> Brandon Jackson (who?).

I've already shown in vivid detail how the Packers lost more players, better players, for longer periods of time. They went on to win the SB. We're sitting at 5-6 and fading fast. Why? Because this team simply wasn't good enough. If a few injuries breaks you, you're not worthy of being a playoff team...and we won't be. 

This defense was abysmal from the word go. Before injuries. That should be the narrative for 2018. We didn't fire the DC "cuz injuries".


They lost their starting RT and Jermichael Finley was literally their leading receiver when he got hurt (after 5 games).

QB is irrelevant because we were losing WITH Dalton. You can't blame losing on an injury when we were losing with the injured player.

1. The Packers run a very generic offense that forces Aaron Rodgers to be spectacular every snap. They do not help him with play design. 

If the Packers offense gave Rodgers more easy throws like the Patriots do Brady, the Saints do Brees or even the Rams do Goff Rodgers would be competing for a championship every year.

And honestly that's straight from Kurt Warner. Lol.

2. Because they were using only a single running back and giving Walton very few snaps the Bengals had to limit the touches to the RBs especially Gio which limited the playbook along with a new TE every game. Specifically the Atlanta game was yard on Gio because even though he had an obvious injury they kept having to bring him back in...from that week on Mixon has taken almost every snap. That is never good.

3. You keep mentioning the Packers winning a superbowl with injuries as "The Norm" it's not. It's more likely for a team with as many injuries as the Bengals have suffered to have a bad season then it is for a team with a bunch of injuries to pull through and win a superbowl.

[XsandOs]

(11-30-2018, 02:07 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Le sigh....

1. Fisher blows. Losing him hardly qualifies as a "loss". Plus this team is already down the tubes, so any future injuries are moot, and only relevant for excuse purposes.

2. We were 1-2 in Green's last 3 games. The defense was (and is still) on pace to shatter all-time records (bad ones). If you think losing AJ Green is why this team has lost it's last 3 games, I don't know what to tell ya. Maybe look at the scores and refresh your memory?

3. I am an intelligent guy...intelligent enough to see this team has a plethora of problems outside of injuries, and intelligent enough to see that the 5-3 record was smoke and mirrors. 4 game winning drives by Dalton. Winning by the skin of our teeth, despite a historically bad defense and an offense that was hit and miss. Then we lost to the Steelers per usual and began falling apart at the seams. 

---------------

Look...tell yourself what you have to in order to get through the day. Change your name to Geoff Hobson for all I care...but when I look back at 2018, I'll remember the historically bad defense, an o-line that still looked shaky at best, and an unimaginative Lazor offense before I'll remember the injuries. They did happen and they didn't help...but the season was already unraveling before the worst injuries.

21-28 L to Steelers happened with a healthy Dalton, Green, Mixon, etc
10-45 L to Chiefs happened with those guys all healthy
We barely scraped out a win over a bad Bucs team with those guys healthy, and that's our last W

What we've seen since is just a continuation of that. The injuries to Green, Dalton and whoever else since are just a nice little convenient excuse.

I disagree.

You used a comparison that is unfair, to make a point that a Team has won a SB, with the same degree of injuries.

When I pointed out that their entire offense was virtually intact - you state that the Bengals were not good, even before injuries.

When I point out that in fact, we were winning before AJ got injured, and had the same record as your comparator, despite the plethora of other injuries - you divert the discussion to what I view as a nonsensical direction.

So, we disagree.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-30-2018, 02:23 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: There actually averaging about 36 points a game since week 6 (26 prior). They also have given up 55% third down percentage and 86 total third downs which is 19 more than the falcons.who are 2nd last. The differential between the falcons and the 5th best team has a less differential. 
I would say that the loss of Vigil and Carl Lawson have been huge but in 2013 we lost Geno, Mays, Lamur, and Hall and it didn't make a difference. The deph particularly at LB is Horrendous.

Exactly.

(11-30-2018, 04:03 AM)Synric Wrote: 1. The Packers run a very generic offense that forces Aaron Rodgers to be spectacular every snap. They do not help him with play design. 

If the Packers offense gave Rodgers more easy throws like the Patriots do Brady, the Saints do Brees or even the Rams do Goff Rodgers would be competing for a championship every year.

And honestly that's straight from Kurt Warner. Lol.

2. Because they were using only a single running back and giving Walton very few snaps the Bengals had to limit the touches to the RBs especially Gio which limited the playbook along with a new TE every game. Specifically the Atlanta game was yard on Gio because even though he had an obvious injury they kept having to bring him back in...from that week on Mixon has taken almost every snap. That is never good.

3. You keep mentioning the Packers winning a superbowl with injuries as "The Norm" it's not. It's more likely for a team with as many injuries as the Bengals have suffered to have a bad season then it is for a team with a bunch of injuries to pull through and win a superbowl.

1. Say what you want. If you take a poll of people on earth who know anything about the NFL, 99% of them would take McCarthy over Marvin Lewis. Any insult you could hurl at McCarthy, you could also say of Marvin, and McCarthy has a ring...as a Head Coach.

2. Oh, I know how not having your 2nd RB could be a hindrance. I just think (a) you're overstating how big a deal it is, and (b) the Packers had to deal with the same issue, only 10x worse. Mixon only missed 2 games all year and he's a fantastic RB. Far better than Brandon Jackson. Ultimately, Gio/Mixon look like they'll miss a combined 6 games for the season. That isn't much time and frankly I think it's pretty pathetic we're trying to use this as an excuse.

3. You're losing sight of the original point. I responded to a post that said "teams with 13 players on IR never win". I disproved that notion. So did eoxyod with the teams he listed. Tbh, I think the Bengals have won with worse injuries. 

2013: Lost Atkins for 7 games, Leon Hall for 11 games, and a combined 18 games for players such as Maualuga, Nelson, Newman, MJ, Kirkpatrick and Taylor Mays. Defense still ranked 3rd in yards allowed and 5th in points allowed. Team finished 11-5.

2014: Green missed 4 games, Marvin Jones missed the whole season, Eifert missed 15 games, Gio missed 3 games. Burkhead missed 7 games. Tate, Sanzenbacher and Greg Little had a combined 5 starts at WR. Burfict missed 11 games. Lamur missed 2 games. Newman missed 3 games. Maualuga missed 4 games. Thompson missed 5 games. Dennard missed 2 games. Still missed 4 games. Team finished 10-5-1 and won multiple games without key players like AJ Green.

(11-30-2018, 10:21 AM)XsandOs Wrote: I disagree.

You used a comparison that is unfair, to make a point that a Team has won a SB, with the same degree of injuries.

When I pointed out that their entire offense was virtually intact - you state that the Bengals were not good, even before injuries.

When I point out that in fact, we were winning before AJ got injured, and had the same record as your comparator, despite the plethora of other injuries - you divert the discussion to what I view as a nonsensical direction.

So, we disagree.

1. Nothing unfair about comparing 2 teams with the same amount of injuries. I went far more in depth with details on the teams than you have, so I don't see how I've been unfair. 

2. If providing context is nonsensical to you, I see no reason to continue. You just want to disagree and that's fine. Tootles. 

[THE PISTONS]

(11-30-2018, 02:29 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Exactly.


1. Say what you want. If you take a poll of people on earth who know anything about the NFL, 99% of them would take McCarthy over Marvin Lewis. Any insult you could hurl at McCarthy, you could also say of Marvin, and McCarthy has a ring...as a Head Coach.

2. Oh, I know how not having your 2nd RB could be a hindrance. I just think (a) you're overstating how big a deal it is, and (b) the Packers had to deal with the same issue, only 10x worse. Mixon only missed 2 games all year and he's a fantastic RB. Far better than Brandon Jackson. Ultimately, Gio/Mixon look like they'll miss a combined 6 games for the season. That isn't much time and frankly I think it's pretty pathetic we're trying to use this as an excuse.

3. You're losing sight of the original point. I responded to a post that said "teams with 13 players on IR never win". I disproved that notion. So did eoxyod with the teams he listed. Tbh, I think the Bengals have won with worse injuries. 

2013: Lost Atkins for 7 games, Leon Hall for 11 games, and a combined 18 games for players such as Maualuga, Nelson, Newman, MJ, Kirkpatrick and Taylor Mays. Defense still ranked 3rd in yards allowed and 5th in points allowed. Team finished 11-5.

2014: Green missed 4 games, Marvin Jones missed the whole season, Eifert missed 15 games, Gio missed 3 games. Burkhead missed 7 games. Tate, Sanzenbacher and Greg Little had a combined 5 starts at WR. Burfict missed 11 games. Lamur missed 2 games. Newman missed 3 games. Maualuga missed 4 games. Thompson missed 5 games. Dennard missed 2 games. Still missed 4 games. Team finished 10-5-1 and won multiple games without key players like AJ Green.


1. Nothing unfair about comparing 2 teams with the same amount of injuries. I went far more in depth with details on the teams than you have, so I don't see how I've been unfair. 

2. If providing context is nonsensical to you, I see no reason to continue. You just want to disagree and that's fine. Tootles. 

The offensive line has been generally healthy and bad.

Guys like Brown and Burfict at LB weren't good when healthy.

Injuries are hurting us. But's it's the difference between maybe 8 wins and 6.

[THE PISTONS]

Bengals linebackers Jordan Evans and Hardy Nickerson allowed 92 yards in coverage as a duo on Sunday.

Now 11 weeks into the season, Cincy's linebackers have allowed league-highs in total yards (1,237) and first downs (63).

[GodFather]

(11-30-2018, 02:12 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This defense is allowing an absurd 31.5 points/game, and it's been that way all season. Injuries aren't to blame for that.

Anyone who thought our offense would be able to keep up with that and win all season is delusional.

People see what they want to see no matter what you throw at them. At the end of the day the Bengals did exactly what a Marvin Lewis team does...folds .....for the same reasons they have in the past.

Fans will come on here and cling onto every single season with dear life, and when its statistically impossible for them to make the playoffs will blame everything other than the obvious. This will give them hope for next year being "The Year"


and guess what?  It won't!

[Shake n Blake]

(11-30-2018, 02:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The offensive line has been generally healthy and bad.

Guys like Brown and Burfict at LB weren't good when healthy.

Injuries are hurting us. But's it's the difference between maybe 8 wins and 6.

Agreed. I'm not saying injuries haven't hurt us at all. What I'm saying is...

1. Injuries haven't been our biggest issue, and that shouldn't be the narrative for why this season is a flop.
2. Injuries don't automatically torpedo your chances.
3. Injuries didn't take us from an 11-5 type of team to a 6-10 team. 

That 5-3 record at the BYE felt like as much luck as anything else. With the way the team (particularly the defense) was playing, I was thanking my lucky stars for that record. Before AJ Green went down, our defense couldn't hold the Steelers for 1 minute, then we got buried by KC, then we almost imploded against Fitzpatrick. What we've seen the last 3 weeks was just a continuation of that. 

The defense was awful from jump (before injuries) and there was no way our offense was going to keep up with the D allowing 30+ ppg all season. I'm pretty sure that no team has ever finished with a winning record when their defense allowed 30+ ppg...and once again, injuries can't be blamed for the defensive performance. We didn't fire the DC "cuz injuries".