What will impact be with voters if Trump is forced to take a mug shot?

[Arturo Bandini]

22 years for Enrique Tarrio.

Tick tock, tick tock.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-05-2023, 07:02 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: 22 years for Enrique Tarrio.

Tick tock, tick tock.

And wasn't even there!

Awesome, so when are they going after the BLM rioters that did way more damage than these guys? 

[Arturo Bandini]

Charles Manson didn't kill anyone.

Nice whataboutism there right ?

Tick tock, tick, tock.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-06-2023, 04:29 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Charles Manson didn't kill anyone.

Nice whataboutism there right ?

Tick tock, tick, tock.

So I'm not allowed to laugh at the idiot for getting charged and not even being there. 

Still waiting on BLM rioters to get their day for looting and destroying businesses.

[Dill]

(09-05-2023, 08:36 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And wasn't even there!

Awesome, so when are they going after the BLM rioters that did way more damage than these guys? 

OtherMike, I'm not out to harass you; it's just you've raised a lot of questions for me lately.

In this case, I don't see why you think the people who rioted during the George Floyd protests did "way more damage"?

1/6 was an attempt to invalidate a presidential election, a disruption of the succession of power for
the entire United States. That's not the same as breaking into a laundromat to steal quarters or burn down
a gas station.

Your analogy is like comparing an assassination attempt on a president to a drive by shooting. The former has
infinitely greater consequences for the nation.

[Eraserhead]

(09-06-2023, 12:31 PM)Dill Wrote: OtherMike, I'm not out to harass you; it's just you've raised a lot of questions for me lately.

In this case, I don't see why you think the people who rioted during the George Floyd protests did "way more damage"?

1/6 was an attempt to invalidate a presidential election, a disruption of the succession of power for
the entire United States. That's not the same as breaking into a laundromat to steal quarters or burn down
a gas station.

Your analogy is like comparing an assassination attempt on a president to a drive by shooting. The former has
infinitely greater consequences for the nation.

You're wasting your breathe. They will sink to any low to ignore or mitigate the actions of Trump and the nimrods around him.

[Dill]

(09-06-2023, 05:42 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: You're wasting your breathe. They will sink to any low to explain away the actions of Trump and the nimrods around him.

No, I don't think of OtherMike that way. We are opposite ends of the spectrum,

but he's a reasonable guy and I've had lots of different exchanges with him.

I just want to understand where he is coming from.

Also, I don't think he is a Trump supporter; just doesn't trust liberals.

[Eraserhead]

(09-06-2023, 05:45 PM)Dill Wrote: No, I don't think of OtherMike that way. We are opposite ends of the spectrum,

but he's a reasonable guy and I've had lots of different exchanges with him.

I just want to understand where he is coming from.

Also, I don't think he is a Trump supporter; just doesn't trust liberals.

Hmm,, well bringing up BLM seems kind a weird then and claiming they did more damage.

Like saying why should someone have to pay their speeding tickets if other people jaywalked?

[Dill]

(09-06-2023, 05:50 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: Hmm,, well bringing up BLM seems kind a weird then and claiming they did more damage.

Like saying why should someone have to pay their speeding tickets if other people jaywalked?

What interested me about it was the equivalence. A lot of people don't see much difference

between the protests and a focused attempt to overthrow the government. That's what gets my

curiosity up. Where does the acceptance of the equivalence come from?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-06-2023, 12:31 PM)Dill Wrote: OtherMike, I'm not out to harass you; it's just you've raised a lot of questions for me lately.

In this case, I don't see why you think the people who rioted during the George Floyd protests did "way more damage"?

1/6 was an attempt to invalidate a presidential election, a disruption of the succession of power for
the entire United States. That's not the same as breaking into a laundromat to steal quarters or burn down
a gas station.

Your analogy is like comparing an assassination attempt on a president to a drive by shooting. The former has
infinitely greater consequences for the nation.

yes, it is worse to me. Anyone that thought Trump could over throw the government is a fool. He WISHES he had that kind of power.

Rioters were out there destroying private property, looting small businesses and hurting their cause all at the same time. Causing people to feel unsafe in areas where they used to not feel that way. Are you going to shop in an area where you feel unsafe? Businesses are closing cause of it, Innocent people that were trying to make a living supporting their family. So yea, that's way more important to me than Trump dreaming of overthrowing the Gov. I am not happy that people got killed or hurt from it, that part pisses me off.

(09-06-2023, 05:42 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: You're wasting your breathe. They will sink to any low to ignore or mitigate the actions of Trump and the nimrods around him.

All politicians are liars, some are just better at it, I'd rather have one that i know is a liar than to be suckered again and again and again into their bs.

The biggest reason i like Republicans is when there is a R POTUS, we usually get tax cuts, I feel that directly. And their hardline stance on immigration.

Democrats Scream Tax the wealthy! Yet it was their idea to cut the 70% tax rate to 50% during Reagans term and ofc he embraced it, as part of his tax cuts for everyone. In 1980, of the 517B collected in taxes, only 3-5B actually came from the 70% tax bracket, so it wasn't worth making it a political point as the Dems learned then. The rich, have plenty of other ways to avoid paying "income" tax, dividends on stock is just one quick example off the top of my head. I'm not in that group so I don't have to worry about learning all those tips and tricks like they do.

And every term it's tax the rich, but they rarely seem to, and if they do i don't feel it. What i do feel is that they won't cut taxes for the middle class, cause who the eff is gonna pay for all of those welfare safety nets they want to create?

Now i am i guess considered a Democrat on views that every USC should be medically covered. We should all be on the same plan and everything is covered and regulated by the Government and made not for profit. Top 10 reasons people file for bankruptcy? No 1. Medical expenses.

I think we need a complete overhaul on the education system. K-12. tons of money wasted there.

I don't think it's out of the realm to actually offer kids College education that want it, or at least a 2 year vocational school. That's currently missed opportunities to expand the tax base.

I don't know what all of the numbers are spent on for the military, but i'm sure there is cuts that can be found there. they aren't in the business of saving money, they are in the business of spending it all and asking for more. Tighten their belts and frivolous spending will decrease.


I'm against increasing spending on the wrong things and more for doing it on the right things. Not saying we shouldn't have any safety nets, but get that debt under control. We Spent $452B (that would have given every graduating HS student enough money to pay for 4 yrs college) on interest alone! At the rate we are going, by 29 it will be $1.1T.

Other things that need overhaul, Prisons, Adoptions, Infra Structure. On and on,

[Dill]

(09-06-2023, 08:12 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: 1/6 was an attempt to invalidate a presidential election, a disruption of the succession of power for
the entire United States. That's not the same as breaking into a laundromat to steal quarters or burn down
a gas station.
Your analogy is like comparing an assassination attempt on a president to a drive by shooting. The former has
infinitely greater consequences for the nation.

yes, it is worse to me. Anyone that thought Trump could over throw the government is a fool. He WISHES he had that kind of power.
Rioters were out there destroying private property, looting small businesses and hurting their cause all at the same time. Causing people to feel unsafe in areas where they used to not feel that way. Are you going to shop in an area where you feel unsafe? Businesses are closing cause of it, Innocent people that were trying to make a living supporting their family.  So yea, that's way more important to me than Trump dreaming of overthrowing the Gov. I am not happy that people got killed or hurt from it, that part pisses me off.

Couple things here.

1. I'm not sure Trump's coup attempt could have worked, but I give it a better chance than you do. In any case, it's not just about whether it would have worked. Had Pence decided not to certify the valid votes and send them back to the 7 states in question, that would have been "proof" for millions that something REALLY WAS wrong with the election. We don't know what would have happened in those states which had already had valid elections; certainly millions would have demanded more investigations, recounts, or maybe even a re-vote--all that after the system had worked and the votes properly counted.

All democrats would have claimed the fake electors invalid; it's not clear how many Republicans would agree. Lynn Cheney and a few maybe; most would have to know they wouldn't be re-elected. Trump DOES have THAT kind of power. How many Republicans would have agreed that the only way to solve the problem was to "follow the Constitution" and send the election to the House, where each represented state gets one vote, throwing the election to Trump? And if they didn't get their way, Fox (knowing the steal was a lie) and Newsmax would be blaring "stolen" every day. "Dems are preventing us from finding the truth." 

Now we are living in a world in which 50 million+ Republicans believe Trump's lie and want him back in the White House. Polling has him tied with Biden for the moment, so it certainly could happen.

A man who criminally engineered an autogolpe would be back in charge, "weaponizing" the entire government with the backing of millions of misguided followers. That makes me feel "unsafe" in an area where I'm not used to feeling that way--the entire U.S. You don't forsee all manner of divisions, conflicts, firings and resignations in critical DoJ institutions if Trump wins, with all the social fallout that goes with that--protests, paralysis of law enforcement and government, and then more VIOLENT protests?

2. Why do you assume the "rioters" were hurting their cause? I've always assumed that most or all of the rioters were not BLM, but locals taking advantage of the chaos which followed the protests and clashes with police.

By the way, thousands of protestors were arrested, just mostly for violating curfew and failure to disperse orders. But in those few places (percentage wise) where rioters were damaging property, many were arrested and charged. Those arrested for minor offenses were often let go and not prosecuted. But so far as I know, that was not the case with people charged with burglary and property damage.

https://apnews.com/article/american-protests-us-news-arrests-minnesota-burglary-bb2404f9b13c8b53b94c73f818f6a0b7

Trump and Barr wanted BLM members prosecuted to the full extent of the law, that's for sure.
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/20/1029625793/black-lives-matter-protesters-targeted

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-07-2023, 10:24 AM)Dill Wrote: Couple things here.

1. I'm not sure Trump's coup attempt could have worked, but I give it a better chance than you do. In any case, it's not just about whether it would have worked. Had Pence decided not to certify the valid votes and send them back to the 7 states in question, that would have been "proof" for millions that something REALLY WAS wrong with the election. We don't know what would have happened in those states which had already had valid elections; certainly millions would have demanded more investigations, recounts, or maybe even a re-vote--all that after the system had worked and the votes properly counted.

All democrats would have claimed the fake electors invalid; it's not clear how many Republicans would agree. Lynn Cheney and a few maybe; most would have to know they wouldn't be re-elected. Trump DOES have THAT kind of power. How many Republicans would have agreed that the only way to solve the problem was to "follow the Constitution" and send the election to the House, where each represented state gets one vote, throwing the election to Trump? And if they didn't get their way, Fox (knowing the steal was a lie) and Newsmax would be blaring "stolen" every day. "Dems are preventing us from finding the truth." 

Now we are living in a world in which 50 million+ Republicans believe Trump's lie and want him back in the White House. Polling has him tied with Biden for the moment, so it certainly could happen.

A man who criminally engineered an autogolpe would be back in charge, "weaponizing" the entire government with the backing of millions of misguided followers. That makes me feel "unsafe" in an area where I'm not used to feeling that way--the entire U.S. You don't forsee all manner of divisions, conflicts, firings and resignations in critical DoJ institutions if Trump wins, with all the social fallout that goes with that--protests, paralysis of law enforcement and government, and then more VIOLENT protests?

2. Why do you assume the "rioters" were hurting their cause? I've always assumed that most or all of the rioters were not BLM, but locals taking advantage of the chaos which followed the protests and clashes with police.

By the way, thousands of protestors were arrested, just mostly for violating curfew and failure to disperse orders. But in those few places (percentage wise) where rioters were damaging property, many were arrested and charged. Those arrested for minor offenses were often let go and not prosecuted. But so far as I know, that was not the case with people charged with burglary and property damage.

https://apnews.com/article/american-protests-us-news-arrests-minnesota-burglary-bb2404f9b13c8b53b94c73f818f6a0b7

Trump and Barr wanted BLM members prosecuted to the full extent of the law, that's for sure.
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/20/1029625793/black-lives-matter-protesters-targeted

Let me re-phrase, HARSER PENALTIES. Out of that 10k link you supplied, roughly 700ish were actually involved in the the looting/burning/violence. 

over 550m in property damage, Businesses were shut down for days/months trying to recover. 
So what they disrupted the process of confirming JB's confirmation. It was confirmed the very next day, and had 1.5m in property damage. Big difference there.

Use some common sense, there is NO WAY Trump could have succeeded, maybe pull off a stint for a couple days but not the long run. 
At best, re-counts would have been done in the states questioned and Trump wins, but the reality is, the results likely wouldn't have changed. out of 4.6k elections, only 27 qualified for re-counts, out of those 27, only 3 were overturned (Dems won all 3 recounts) so odds for Trump winning a recount?? 
Now tack on rioting from the General Populace, and Litigation and toss in some corrupt FBI and Trump would have been buried maybe even literally. 

You are giving Trump too much credit, he would have Effed it up somehow. Dude is his own worst enemy. I know you aren't that blind that you can't see that. 

How does it hurt the message? Simple, changes the focus from the message to the violence then guilt by association.

[hollodero]

(09-07-2023, 01:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Use some common sense, there is NO WAY Trump could have succeeded, maybe pull off a stint for a couple days but not the long run. 

I would agree it is extremely unlikely, but I can't quite say impossible.

For example, your constitution does in no way demand the electors sent to Washington being bound by election results. A fake elector scheme could possibly work. In the 2016 election alone, a total of seven electors were faithless and did not vote according to the election result. Five turned against Hillary, two against Trump. Which is wild to learn.

And if Trump had found a corrupt state secretary, I would not find it completely unfeasible that such a person could actually find him the votes Trump demanded. Many folks claim, expecially many republicans, that voter fraud is an issue, at least in theory. Therefore, it must be even more likely when a high official with lots of access is behind the fraud.

[Dill]

(09-07-2023, 01:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Use some common sense, there is NO WAY Trump could have succeeded, maybe pull off a stint for a couple days but not the long run. 
At best, re-counts would have been done in the states questioned and Trump wins, but the reality is, the results likely wouldn't have changed. out of 4.6k elections, only 27 qualified for re-counts, out of those 27, only 3 were overturned (Dems won all 3 recounts) so odds for Trump winning a recount?? 
Now tack on rioting from the General Populace, and Litigation and toss in some corrupt FBI and Trump would have been buried maybe even literally. 

You are giving Trump too much credit, he would have Effed it up somehow. Dude is his own worst enemy. I know you aren't that blind that you can't see that.

Lol I think Trump has quite earned the credit I am giving him. He is a massive problem in our politics and continues to be, though it's not just him. Without the RWM echoing his lies and platforming people to spin them into an alternative reality, the problem is not there. Just a reminder, I've always identified Fox and company as the primary driver of our political dysfunction.

And one of their primary tactics is "reverse verification." Whereas real journalists are looking for accuracy to fix/resolve ambiguity, the RWEC is going the other direction--taking accuracy/facts and ambiguating them, spinning up doubt where it wasn't or needn't be. Benghazi Benghazi Benghazi!!!

This leads me to the bolded-- you may have missed my point. If, by 1/6, the MAGA world was not accepting recounts, what makes you think they would suddenly do so the fourth or fifth time around? They would not, and still don't. The election was rigged and so are the recounts. Just ask Kari Lake! Those GOP politicians who knew that Biden had indeed won--they would have pushed to have the vote turned to the House. Unlikely that would have worked, but then that would have been spun up as a Dem "coup" to keep the rightful winner out of office.  DEMS TRASH THE CONSTITUTION would have been the banner under Tucker Carlson's talking head the next day, even as behind the scenes he knew Trump's big lie was a lie, and complaining about what a disaster Trump was for the Right. Pence's refusal to overstep his ceremonial role avoided maximal damage for sure.

Also, this issue is not just whether he could succeed, but the disruption in the wake of the attempt. That's not just about riot damage, though I don't think the riots are over yet. It's about damage to the legitimacy of U.S. institutions which makes them and country ungovernable.