Which Jail Do Transgender People Go To?

[CJD]

(03-08-2022, 04:10 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I largely agree, but let me pose a for instance.  What if the non-transgender prisoners have a problem with having a female with a penis being housed with them?  Are their considerations of less importance than the transgendered person?  It's certainly a complicated issue, to be sure, but I think we need to be concerned about the rights of everyone it affects, not just the transgendered person.

I assume there are women who would be uncomfortable being in prison with lesbians. I assume there are women who would be uncomfortable being in prison with black people or Muslims or a variety of other types of people. If they took every prisoner's preferences into account when determining the make up of the prison population, I imagine they'd need 10 different prisons for the same number of women that are currently housed in 1 prison.

With trans women, they could argue that there's a greater risk that she will rape a cis woman in prison, but that would have to be taken into account when considering her appeal to enter the women's prison. If they believed that a trans woman was at a point in their transition where they'd be a threat to still rape a cis woman (the way a cis man may be able to) it would be prudent to not admit them. I am not an expert on trans women's biology, but I've heard that HRT significantly affects a trans woman's ability to have an erection without Viagra or a similar drug. So the idea that a trans woman who is undergoing HRT is more at risk of raping a cis woman just because she has a penis may be one of those things people say to scare other people into oppressing trans women. Which is why I brought up race, religion and sexual orientation as things that other prisoners may be "afraid of" due to the bigoted stereotypes of the given examples (The idea that black women are more aggressive, Muslims are violent terrorists and lesbians being sex crazy all have a similar twang of fear based hatred and bias that fearing a trans woman would rape a cis woman does).

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-10-2022, 09:54 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I assume there are women who would be uncomfortable being in prison with lesbians. I assume there are women who would be uncomfortable being in prison with black people or Muslims or a variety of other types of people. If they took every prisoner's preferences into account when determining the make up of the prison population, I imagine they'd need 10 different prisons for the same number of women that are currently housed in 1 prison.

I really hesitated to even make this side point as it's only adjacent to the main point.  But I have to say, this paragraph makes an excellent argument for why people should be housed according to their genitalia instead of their preferences.

Quote:With trans women, they could argue that there's a greater risk that she will rape a cis woman in prison, but that would have to be taken into account when considering her appeal to enter the women's prison. If they believed that a trans woman was at a point in their transition where they'd be a threat to still rape a cis woman (the way a cis man may be able to) it would be prudent to not admit them. I am not an expert on trans women's biology, but I've heard that HRT significantly affects a trans woman's ability to have an erection without Viagra or a similar drug. So the idea that a trans woman who is undergoing HRT is more at risk of raping a cis woman just because she has a penis may be one of those things people say to scare other people into oppressing trans women. Which is why I brought up race, religion and sexual orientation as things that other prisoners may be "afraid of" due to the bigoted stereotypes of the given examples (The idea that black women are more aggressive, Muslims are violent terrorists and lesbians being sex crazy all have a similar twang of fear based hatred and bias that fearing a trans woman would rape a cis woman does).

Here's the thing.  Eventually the scenario you mention in the beginning off this paragraph will happen.  Prison/jail is not a restroom or locker room, you are forced to be there.  While you are there it is the state/county's duty to ensure your safety to the degree possible.  What I'm advancing doesn't discriminate against transgendered people as it fully allows those who have fully transitioned to be housed with the gender they identify as.  The problem, and we're seeing it advanced in Scotland right now (for those that don't know Scotland is "progressive" in ways that make the Berkeley area look conservative) is what do you then do with people who "identify" as male or female?  Do they have to prove it, can they change their mind?  Can they stay in men's prison for a few years, go to women's prison for a few more and then return to men's prison again?  After all, some people are gender fluid, right?

The whole thing has the easy potential to become a tangled mess with millions of exceptions.  Best to make a blanket policy based on hard facts.  You have male genitalia, you're housed with men, you have women's genitalia you're housed with women.  It doesn't get more fair and fact based than that.

[CJD]

(03-10-2022, 01:05 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I really hesitated to even make this side point as it's only adjacent to the main point.  But I have to say, this paragraph makes an excellent argument for why people should be housed according to their genitalia instead of their preferences.



Here's the thing.  Eventually the scenario you mention in the beginning off this paragraph will happen.  Prison/jail is not a restroom or locker room, you are forced to be there.  While you are there it is the state/county's duty to ensure your safety to the degree possible.  What I'm advancing doesn't discriminate against transgendered people as it fully allows those who have fully transitioned to be housed with the gender they identify as.  The problem, and we're seeing it advanced in Scotland right now (for those that don't know Scotland is "progressive" in ways that make the Berkeley area look conservative) is what do you then do with people who "identify" as male or female?  Do they have to prove it, can they change their mind?  Can they stay in men's prison for a few years, go to women's prison for a few more and then return to men's prison again?  After all, some people are gender fluid, right?

The whole thing has the easy potential to become a tangled mess with millions of exceptions.  Best to make a blanket policy based on hard facts.  You have male genitalia, you're housed with men, you have women's genitalia you're housed with women.  It doesn't get more fair and fact based than that.

They may be aesthetically similar arguments, but I think there's a fundamental difference between a preference to exclude someone and a preference to include someone or be included. No one takes the Klansmen's preference to keep black people out of restaurants as equally valid to a black person's preference to be allowed into a restaurant. The only thing that binds them is the term "preference. "

At the end of the day, I think you and I mostly agree here with the exception of maybe what boundaries must be crossed before a rare exception is made. There's already a very small percentage of trans people proportionate to cis people in prison, so where we differ may be as little as a fraction of a fraction of a percent of cases across the country.

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