Which Jail Do Transgender People Go To?

[Arturo Bandini]

Why do you care ? What's your obsession with this ?

Let people leave their life.

[Bengalzona]

(03-05-2022, 06:05 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: If Democrats say that transgender people are the gender to which they identify, why would any male go to a male prison and risk getting raped in the shower and any violence?

There would also be perks like showering with women.

Couldn't every male at sentencing just say "I identify as female" and go to the women's prison?

Rape is a crime of violence. Do you think that a man couldn't or wouldn't get raped in a women's prison? Maybe a group of 300lb+ meth and crack abusers ordering him to "get it up" so they can have a go at him Amazon-style... then shoving a mop handle up his sewage hole when he is "too much of a noodle-d***" to comply?

[HarleyDog]

(03-06-2022, 12:29 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Rape is a crime of violence. Do you think that a man couldn't or wouldn't get raped in a women's prison? Maybe a group of 300lb+ meth and crack abusers ordering him to "get it up" so they can have a go at him Amazon-style... then shoving a mop handle up his sewage hole when he is "too much of a noodle-d***" to comply?

Better a mop handle than the alternative. Plus, a mop handle wouldn't make you feel like a slut! 

[Matt_Crimson]

While this thread did seem silly at first glance, I think it does point to what I believe is a core issue with transgenderism, which is determining "fairness" when someone decides to identify as the opposite sex.

In BFritz's example, he appears to be alluding to it being unfair for a man to identify as a woman to avoid being raped/face male-on-male violence. Bengalzona rightfully points out that men can get raped by women, however I don't think it necessarily refutes the premise. While men can certainly be raped and beaten by women, I think it's important to stay intellectually honest with ourselves and admit that a man can fend off a rape attempt or other violent attack from a woman much easier than he can when it's a man.

Notice that Bengalzona said "A group of 300 lb women". There's a reason why the example was framed that way....... because subconsciously we see women as inferior strength wise to men. It's not something we even really consider questioning in these types of "what if" scenarios because it's simply a fact that men are stronger than women. Thus, when talking about stuff like this it always takes a "group" of women. In this case, it's a group of 300 lb women, further driving the point.

So then, we find ourselves at one of the core issues of transgenderism. And I'm not trying to derail the thread by adding this to the topic but this isn't just about prisons, although that's what BFritz was pointing to. It relates to other things like athletics, which is no doubt a hot topic right now.

I get that people want to say things like "Why does anyone care if someone wants to be transgender when it doesn't affect their lives". And you're right, to an extent. When someone wants to identify as the opposite sex it doesn't hurt anyone else on the immediate surface. However..... when you start to apply your identity to things like institutions it DOES affect other people to the point that a particular issue has to be dealt with concerning whatever that institution is.

In this case, the issue is men identifying as women to avoid their equals so that they can more easily be able to defend themselves against their weaker counterparts (women), which creates a sphere of "unfairness" with prison sentencing  Transgenderism leads to society having to make these types of judgement calls when situations like this arise, so people aren't able to unfairly benefit off of their gender identification. Like men going on to identify as women and play in women's sports.

It leads to the question of "Well, is this really fair?". If it isn't, what do you do about it? If it is fair, what's the rationale for why it's fair, and does that rationale make for a better society or a worse one? Do you apply one stroke of the brush? Or do you have to treat every scenario as a new canvas?

Sociopathicsteelerfan points out that it depends on what state and county you're in. While that's true, I believe this only exacerbates the issue and doesn't address the problems created by allowing individuals to choose what type of prison they go to based on their gender identification. That seems like a pretty serious precedent to set. Not only does the "fairness" of it all need to be taken into account, but as you go down the rabbit hole other issues would eventually start to come up such as how prison populations are affected, etc. The way BFritz presented the topic might seem silly/simplistic, but it's actually quite complicated.

[*jason*]

(03-05-2022, 10:06 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I'm not the one claiming there is.

Pretty much everything on here can be found by doing research but asking here is a lot easier.
See above.

False.

That link says transgender people are kept in individualized cells, so why wouldn't everyone just claim that they're transgender?

Because as much as being around X amount of shit heads and degenerates sucks, being in solitary sucks even worse.

Also being raped in the shower isn't as common as it's portrayed. There are plenty of people willing to have sex in prison... Oh and they make lipstick outta Kool Aid, so it's kinda already a thing in there.

[GMDino]

Is this a burning issue in America today?

[samhain]

Do guinea pigs go to people heaven or guinea pig heaven?

[Bengalzona]

(03-06-2022, 05:28 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Better a mop handle than the alternative. Plus, a mop handle wouldn't make you feel like a slut! 

I don't know, Dog. I remember seeing some "prison girls" movie from back in the 70's where the "mean girl" gangsters have a go at the "new girl" with a broomstick, and that looked pretty damn brutal! (I'll bet someone on here probably saw that same show)

And then there was the dude in Sons of Anarchy who basically got butt-raped to death. Makes me think the broom stick would make that experience even worse!

[HarleyDog]

(03-06-2022, 08:27 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I don't know, Dog. I remember seeing some "prison girls" movie from back in the 70's where the "mean girl" gangsters have a go at the "new girl" with a broomstick, and that looked pretty damn brutal! (I'll bet someone on here probably saw that same show)

And then there was the dude in Sons of Anarchy who basically got butt-raped to death. Makes me think the broom stick would make that experience even worse!

I'm kind of weird I think. I don't think a group of chicks forcing me to do things would upset me. 

[Bengalzona]

(03-06-2022, 06:01 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: While this thread did seem silly at first glance, I think it does point to what I believe is a core issue with transgenderism, which is determining "fairness" when someone decides to identify as the opposite sex.

In BFritz's example, he appears to be alluding to it being unfair for a man to identify as a woman to avoid being raped/face male-on-male violence. Bengalzona rightfully points out that men can get raped by women, however I don't think it necessarily refutes the premise. While men can certainly be raped and beaten by women, I think it's important to stay intellectually honest with ourselves and admit that a man can fend off a rape attempt or other violent attack from a woman much easier than he can when it's a man.

Notice that Bengalzona said "A group of 300 lb women". There's a reason why the example was framed that way....... because subconsciously we see women as inferior strength wise to men. It's not something we even really consider questioning in these types of "what if" scenarios because it's simply a fact that men are stronger than women. Thus, when talking about stuff like this it always takes a "group" of women. In this case, it's a group of 300 lb women, further driving the point.

So then, we find ourselves at one of the core issues of transgenderism. And I'm not trying to derail the thread by adding this to the topic but this isn't just about prisons, although that's what BFritz was pointing to. It relates to other things like athletics, which is no doubt a hot topic right now.

I get that people want to say things like "Why does anyone care if someone wants to be transgender when it doesn't affect their lives". And you're right, to an extent. When someone wants to identify as the opposite sex it doesn't hurt anyone else on the immediate surface. However..... when you start to apply your identity to things like institutions it DOES affect other people to the point that a particular issue has to be dealt with concerning whatever that institution is.

In this case, the issue is men identifying as women to avoid their equals so that they can more easily be able to defend themselves against their weaker counterparts (women), which creates a sphere of "unfairness" with prison sentencing  Transgenderism leads to society having to make these types of judgement calls when situations like this arise, so people aren't able to unfairly benefit off of their gender identification. Like men going on to identify as women and play in women's sports.

It leads to the question of "Well, is this really fair?". If it isn't, what do you do about it? If it is fair, what's the rationale for why it's fair, and does that rationale make for a better society or a worse one? Do you apply one stroke of the brush? Or do you have to treat every scenario as a new canvas?

Sociopathicsteelerfan points out that it depends on what state and county you're in. While that's true, I believe this only exacerbates the issue and doesn't address the problems created by allowing individuals to choose what type of prison they go to based on their gender identification. That seems like a pretty serious precedent to set. Not only does the "fairness" of it all need to be taken into account, but as you go down the rabbit hole other issues would eventually start to come up such as how prison populations are affected, etc. The way BFritz presented the topic might seem silly/simplistic, but it's actually quite complicated.

Actually, the 300 pounders wasn't so much about the size and strength necessary. It, combined with the reference to meth and crackheads, was to create an image of women that I think most men would not find attractive in any way in order to dissuade from any notion that a potential victim might enjoy this in any way (although, there may be some real freaks out there that would be aroused by this). Of course this is based upon the premise that the person was merely a man posing as a woman and did not actually suffer from gender dysphoria, where there would be no chance of her becoming aroused at all.

Frankly when it comes to a gang rape, whether it be by males or females, there would be a point where the number of attackers involved outweighs (no pun intended) any size considerations (i.e. 4 or 5 100lb ladies or dudes might take down and secure a 300lb dude). And I would guess that most prison rapes would be of the gang variety, generally to "teach someone a lesson" type thing.

But going back to questions about people with gender dysphoria integrating into institutions or into organizations such as sports teams, I have differing opinions. In institutions such as school, work, military, government, etc., I see no reason why they should be treated any different than anyone else. I don't think prisons should be an exception, so long as a psych eval confirms gender dysphoria.

As long as we have sports that are segregated between males and females, people with gender dysphoria will not fit in. This is probably more true at the college and pro levels than some of the high school level sports (in many places, females can wrestle and play football). And in the cases of pro and college sports and segregated high school sports, I suspect the only "fair" solution for them and everyone involved might be a "league of their own"-type separate but equal segregation.

[Bengalzona]

(03-06-2022, 08:38 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I'm kind of weird I think. I don't think a group of chicks forcing me to do things would upset me. 

"Sit!".... "Rollover!".... "Play Dead!" (LOL!)

[CJD]

(03-06-2022, 02:31 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: The showering with women might still be a perk 

I agree we should make it safer but that's an entirely different discussion.

The driver from my wreck is in now and I don't know anyone that has talked to him in years but word was that he wasn't doing too well in there.

Well, that benefit would cost them a lot, wouldn't you say? Being transgender is usually more than just saying "I am a woman." Most trans people go through hormone therapy, change their presentation from one gender to another and often alter their behaviors as well.

Plus, trans people are some of the most heavily persecuted minorities in the entire country. Claiming to be trans would essentially quadruple their chances of being part of a violent crime (rape, murder, mugging, assault etc).

Especially if this person is actually a criminal and has criminal friends (say, part of a gang), once they got out they almost certainly wouldn't accept them back.

All that so they could look, but not touch, women in the shower (because if you ever assaulted a woman in prison, they're probably doing something about that)? That seems a bit steep. So much so, that I doubt anyone would bother doing it.

Now, there may be some trans people out there that say they're trans but then don't take hormones, don't change their presentation or their behaviors and don't present in any way as a gender other than the one associated with their sex. But I imagine that portion is so small that it's insignificant. And I doubt they'd be given approval to move to the other prison without changing a single aspect of themselves.


I think a really unfortunate circumstance of our prison system is the implication that criminals deserve whatever happens to them in prison. As if being in a prison with no freedoms (and often being put to work for almost no money) for years at a time isn't punishment enough, they also have to worry about being raped or being beaten by other prisoners. Like that's "part of the sentence." It just perpetuates crime and increases recidivism. I feel like the purpose of prison has become completely lost over time...

[Sled21]

To answer your question Brad, you live in Kentucky. In Kentucky, transgender men identifying as women still go to men's prison and are in General Population. You go where biology says you go.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-07-2022, 09:35 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think a really unfortunate circumstance of our prison system is the implication that criminals deserve whatever happens to them in prison. As if being in a prison with no freedoms (and often being put to work for almost no money) for years at a time isn't punishment enough, they also have to worry about being raped or being beaten by other prisoners. Like that's "part of the sentence." It just perpetuates crime and increases recidivism. I feel like the purpose of prison has become completely lost over time...

Actually, America still uses prisons as they were originally intended, a place to both punish criminals and isolate them from the rest of society.  The idea of rehabilitation is relatively new.  Even so the idea has only really been paid lip service in the US and originally the prisoner themselves was supposed to reflect and repent for their wrongdoings, which is where the term penitentiary comes from.  So, while I get your general point prison does not functionally operate on a less enlightened plane now then was originally intended.  

Other countries definitely use different methods and styles of prison, but I would also point out that many, if not all, of the countries used in these comparisons have a criminal justice systems that would have Americans aghast in regard to the comparatively light sentences for serious crimes people receive in those countries.  I don't think anyone has really hit the sweet spot on this topic, we're certainly to the right of center, especially for a western democracy, with the European countries being left of center.  

As for the topic at hand, my personal opinion is that your prison is decided by your genitalia.  It's the only fair policy for everyone involved.

[CJD]

(03-08-2022, 12:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Actually, America still uses prisons as they were originally intended, a place to both punish criminals and isolate them from the rest of society.  The idea of rehabilitation is relatively new.  Even so the idea has only really been paid lip service in the US and originally the prisoner themselves was supposed to reflect and repent for their wrongdoings, which is where the term penitentiary comes from.  So, while I get your general point prison does not functionally operate on a less enlightened plane now then was originally intended.  

Other countries definitely use different methods and styles of prison, but I would also point out that many, if not all, of the countries used in these comparisons have a criminal justice systems that would have Americans aghast in regard to the comparatively light sentences for serious crimes people receive in those countries.  I don't think anyone has really hit the sweet spot on this topic, we're certainly to the right of center, especially for a western democracy, with the European countries being left of center.  

As for the topic at hand, my personal opinion is that your prison is decided by your genitalia.  It's the only fair policy for everyone involved.

Fair enough. I got a little too idealistic there for a minute.

As far as which prison, I think genitalia would be the common sense solution, but that leaves gaps for people like, as an example, Laverne Cox's character in Orange is the New Black. Granted, I don't know if she's had bottom surgery in that show or not, but she is a trans woman who has fully undergone hormone replacement therapies and presents as a woman. The consequences of putting someone like her in a male prison...would be pretty steep. I don't think it should be as simple as "what do you identify as" but I do believe there should be some wiggle room for considering cases that may be on the edge.

It's like that famous Potter Stewart quote regarding pornography. 

Quote:I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.

If you swap out "hard-core pornography" with "woman" and "motion picture" with "person," that would be a decent place to start.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-08-2022, 02:00 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Fair enough. I got a little too idealistic there for a minute.

As far as which prison, I think genitalia would be the common sense solution, but that leaves gaps for people like, as an example, Laverne Cox's character in Orange is the New Black. Granted, I don't know if she's had bottom surgery in that show or not, but she is a trans woman who has fully undergone hormone replacement therapies and presents as a woman. The consequences of putting someone like her in a male prison...would be pretty steep. I don't think it should be as simple as "what do you identify as" but I do believe there should be some wiggle room for considering cases that may be on the edge.

It's like that famous Potter Stewart quote regarding pornography. 

If you swap out "hard-core pornography" with "woman" and "motion picture" with "person," that would be a decent place to start.

Your for instance of a fully transitioned person who has not had genital replacement surgery being more at risk seems logical, but at the end of the day it doesn't hold water.  There are already plenty of men in prison who dress and act as women but are not transgender, for one.  Two, they may be more at risk of sexual assault, but so is a physically weak man with no gang protection.  Following your argument, we would need to make separate facilities for the physically small/weak as well as they are at far more risk of assault than a larger, more physically strong man.

Also, determining the facility by the person's genitalia covers you from a slew of potential lawsuits.  What is to stop a large and imposing man from declaring they are now a woman, agreeing to take HRT (for which they could easily cheek their meds) and then being housed in a woman's prison?  Yes, that seems like an extreme example, but I assure you that criminals will find every possible loophole in a rule and exploit the hell out of it.  Even without that, can you imagine what would happen to Elliot Page, or any other FTM transgender person who has not had genital replacement surgery, if they were housed in a men's prison?  Suffice to say, it wouldn't go well for them, at all.  When you look at all the potential ways it could, and would, go wrong housing a person based on their genitalia is absolutely the most fair and equitable solution.

[*Nately120*]

I agree with the overall takes on this issue that aren't based in some sort of Cinemax-fueled "women's prison would be hot for a man" notions. With that being said, this is another one of those arguments where we get into "What would stop person X from doing bad thing Y?" and that usually just boils down to political debate 101...same old stuff, really.

What's to stop people from doing bad things? Nothing really...I mean, you have laws but they only work on people who have the wisdom to consider the punishment before they committee the offense. It's unsettling how much we need to depend on other people to not do the wrong thing.

[CJD]

(03-08-2022, 02:46 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Your for instance of a fully transitioned person who has not had genital replacement surgery being more at risk seems logical, but at the end of the day it doesn't hold water.  There are already plenty of men in prison who dress and act as women but are not transgender, for one.  Two, they may be more at risk of sexual assault, but so is a physically weak man with no gang protection.  Following your argument, we would need to make separate facilities for the physically small/weak as well as they are at far more risk of assault than a larger, more physically strong man.

Also, determining the facility by the person's genitalia covers you from a slew of potential lawsuits.  What is to stop a large and imposing man from declaring they are now a woman, agreeing to take HRT (for which they could easily cheek their meds) and then being housed in a woman's prison?  Yes, that seems like an extreme example, but I assure you that criminals will find every possible loophole in a rule and exploit the hell out of it.  Even without that, can you imagine what would happen to Elliot Page, or any other FTM transgender person who has not had genital replacement surgery, if they were housed in a men's prison?  Suffice to say, it wouldn't go well for them, at all.  When you look at all the potential ways it could, and would, go wrong housing a person based on their genitalia is absolutely the most fair and equitable solution.

I don't know if lawsuits are avoidable in either case. If you place a MTF in male prison and she is raped because she presents as female, even if she has a penis, there is going to be outrage. If you place a MTF in female prison and she rapes someone because she still has a penis, there is going to be outrage. I think in either scenario, the best solution is to make prison a place where prisoners do not run the yard, so to speak. Again, idealist speaking here, I don't think we're close to this. But rape and murder as well as requirement to associate with gangs in order to not die/get beaten in prison should be the prison industrial complex's #1 goal to remove from prisons. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case for a variety of reasons. Like, what are you going to do to a prisoner who has a life sentence if they rape someone? Just...more years? It gets to a certain point where our prison system can only do so much. I understand that. It's just something to strive towards.

The FTMs are a little more complicated, as you stated. I'm more conflicted about them in this scenario, but I'd still allow a FTM to go to a men's prison if he so chose. Kind of a "you take on the risks of your own free will" type of thing.

For the time being, like I said, I think genitalia is the most common sense solution and should probably be the path that most places take. But I still believe there should be some consideration for those deep in the transition (not just guys cheeking their meds, maybe hormone tests need to be surpassed before admittance as a possible solution) and for those who have had bottom surgery. Even if it is done via individual petitions from the prisoners themselves.

[Vas Deferens]

Seems like if the purpose of a prison is to reform wayward individuals, they'd need to be safe enough to not inflict greater psychological damage, regardless of the bean/pole a person flicks for jollies.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(03-08-2022, 03:08 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I don't know if lawsuits are avoidable in either case. If you place a MTF in male prison and she is raped because she presents as female, even if she has a penis, there is going to be outrage. If you place a MTF in female prison and she rapes someone because she still has a penis, there is going to be outrage. I think in either scenario, the best solution is to make prison a place where prisoners do not run the yard, so to speak. Again, idealist speaking here, I don't think we're close to this.

I've worked in a detention facility in the past.  Not only would this be a monumental undertaking but it is flat out impossible in the current climate.  As bad as jails/prisons were in the past in regard to the inmates running the show behind the scenes it is exponentially worse now.  Staff had very few tools to deal with poor behavior in the past, but even these are being stripped away.  Remember, especially in deep blue states, criminals are frequently looked at as victims of a racist and oppressive criminal justice system.  It is not an exaggeration to say that corrections staff, and sheriff's deputies, are essentially powerless to enforce rules to the degree that would be required to even start addressing this issue.

Quote:But rape and murder as well as requirement to associate with gangs in order to not die/get beaten in prison should be the prison industrial complex's #1 goal to remove from prisons. Unfortunately, that just isn't the case for a variety of reasons. Like, what are you going to do to a prisoner who has a life sentence if they rape someone? Just...more years? It gets to a certain point where our prison system can only do so much. I understand that. It's just something to strive towards.

This is why the super-max prison, such as Pelican Bay, was created, to house this specific type of inmate.  As for eliminating the gangs from the prison, this is also impossible under current conditions.  You can't even read a prisoner's mail in CA, the level of control you'd need to have to even begin to approach this problem would be utterly unacceptable to the government of many, if not most states.  

Quote:The FTMs are a little more complicated, as you stated. I'm more conflicted about them in this scenario, but I'd still allow a FTM to go to a men's prison if he so chose. Kind of a "you take on the risks of your own free will" type of thing.

Except you can't do that, as it violates their constitutional rights to equal protection.  Any policy in this regard has to treat both sexes equally.

Quote:For the time being, like I said, I think genitalia is the most common sense solution and should probably be the path that most places take. But I still believe there should be some consideration for those deep in the transition (not just guys cheeking their meds, maybe hormone tests need to be surpassed before admittance as a possible solution) and for those who have had bottom surgery. Even if it is done via individual petitions from the prisoners themselves.

I largely agree, but let me pose a for instance.  What if the non-transgender prisoners have a problem with having a female with a penis being housed with them?  Are their considerations of less importance than the transgendered person?  It's certainly a complicated issue, to be sure, but I think we need to be concerned about the rights of everyone it affects, not just the transgendered person.